God as an ultimate source of morals?

[Metaphysicalwonderer]

Is God the ultimate source or morality? If so, are His proclamations good because He proclaims them, or does He proclaim them because they are good?

 

[elopez]

Is God the ultimate source or morality? If so, are His proclamations good because He proclaims them, or does He proclaim them because they are good?

Old dirty joke.

Morality is not a contingent property of God. God cannot lack morality so no. God's moral character is indispensable to His existence hence it is part of His nature to be moral. In other words, there is no possible world in which morality would not be essential to God. God doesn't just happen to be loving He is that way necessarily.

 

[Metaphysicalwonderer]

If God is necessarily a moral being does that mean he is also a moral agent (albeit, a perfect moral agent)?

 

[elopez]

If God is necessarily a moral being does that mean he is also a moral agent (albeit, a perfect moral agent)?

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'agent' but yes.

 

[Metaphysicalwonderer]

If God is a moral agent then he tells us what is moral for a good reason. He doesn't just pick things abitrarily; would you agree?

 

[elopez]

Dude that's what I basically said in my first response, stop beating around the bush and get to a point already...

 

[Metaphysicalwonderer]

Well if that's true than God must be refering to some other moral principles in order to decide what is a good one to proclaim and what is not.

 

[elopez]

Well if that's true than God must be refering to some other moral principles in order to decide what is a good one to proclaim and what is not.

This does not make any sense as it has already been agreed that morality is essential to God. If morality is essential to God, then there is no need for Him to refer to outside principles of His will.

 

[Metaphysicalwonderer]

Then we were wrong to say that God was a moral agent, and that he therefore needs to look to some outside principle. God himself is the source of morality? When God says something is good then it must be good?

 

[elopez]

Then we were wrong to say that God was a moral agent, and that he therefore needs to look to some outside principle. God himself is the source of morality? When God says something is good then it must be good?

If God is essentially good then it is not incorrect to say God is a moral agent. Again that means that God does not just make up what morality is. He has always deemed what morality was because morality is indispensable to His existence. What God says then is good because it is good. It will not change nor has changed.

 

[Metaphysicalwonderer]

You contradict yourself. First you say:

1.) "God does not just make up what morality is"

This necessarily means that morality is independent of God. Then you go on to say:

2.) "He has always deemed what morality was because morality is indispensable to His existence."

This means that morality does, in fact, come from God. But then you switch back to the former view, and say:

3.) "What God says then is good because it is good."

Here again, you clearly show that what is good is not dependent on God telling us that it is good, it is good in and of itself. Which view is correct than? View 1 and 3, or view 2?

 

[ebia]

You contradict yourself. First you say:

1.) "God does not just make up what morality is"

This necessarily means that morality is independent of God. Then you go on to say:

2.) "He has always deemed what morality was because morality is indispensable to His existence."

This means that morality does, in fact, come from God. But then you switch back to the former view, and say:

3.) "What God says then is good because it is good."

Here again, you clearly show that what is good is not dependent on God telling us that it is good, it is good in and of itself. Which view is correct than? View 1 and 3, or view 2?

Your questions seem to assume that God and goodness are distinct and separate things where one depends upon the other: either there is a standard of goodness separate from God, or what is good is arbitrarily decided by God. But they don't seem to be the only possibilities and trying to shove the responses people give into those two will give rise to discrepancies.

If goodness simply is (part of) who God is, part of his nature, it is neither something he decides (in the sense that he could make a different choice), nor an external referent.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Your questions seem to assume that God and goodness are distinct and separate things where one depends upon the other: either there is a standard of goodness separate from God, or what is good is arbitrarily decided by God. But they don't seem to be the only possibilities and trying to shove the responses people give into those two will give rise to discrepancies.

If goodness simply is (part of) who God is, part of his nature, it is neither something he decides (in the sense that he could make a different choice), nor an external referent.

This.

Something is good because it reflects God.

Not out of an arbitrary decision by God.

Not from an outside source other than God.

Rather goodness is good because it is sourced in God. Altruism is good, not because God has merely commanded it, but because it is intrinsic to the nature of Divinity itself.

In other words, Euthyphro's Dilemma isn't much of a dilemma within the Christian theological schema.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[drich0150]

Is God the ultimate source or morality? If so, are His proclamations good because He proclaims them, or does He proclaim them because they are good?

God is the standard of Good in which we measure or know "good" to be.

 

[Metaphysicalwonderer]

That's fine, God is the source of morals because morality reflects his nature. When we say something is good, it is good because it is a part of God. So how do we know that which if good? God has told it to us. Wouldn't that require God to self-introspect and say "This is My nature, this is Good." And, again, that would mean that the source of our knowledge of good comes from God. That doesn't solve the dilemna; even if that's true it is not unreasonable to think that God could have a different nature (which we would then also, necessarily, call good), or even that God could have chosen to reveal other acts as moral (than making those good as well).

 

[razeontherock]

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
(Proverbs 3:6) In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths."

 

[Metaphysicalwonderer]

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
(Proverbs 3:6) In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths."

In no way is that an answer to anything. I don't think the questions I have raised are unreasonable, yet know one seems to answer them. The best attempt so far has been:

If goodness simply is (part of) who God is, part of his nature, it is neither something he decides (in the sense that he could make a different choice), nor an external referent.

But I ask again, if it is simply part of His nature, you can not then qualify it as good and proclaim that as a solution. To say God's very nature is good is to refer to some outside principle. For how can we say God's very nature is good without comparing it to The Good. For instance, my hair is brown because it shares the qualities that the color brown has; ie. it is darker that blonde, lighter than black, etc. God's nature is good (perhaps necessarily so) because it matches what we think good to be. This is no solution.

So, I will repeat the initial question--one which I think every true Christian should be capable of answering--is God the source of Morality? If so, how are His proclamations anything other than arbitrary? If God isn't the source of morality, then what reprecussions does this have on the Christian faith? Please answer.

 

[Catherineanne]

Is God the ultimate source or morality? If so, are His proclamations good because He proclaims them, or does He proclaim them because they are good?

Hiya M.

I think we would need to take one step back before this one and ask who or what God is.

Although words really fail us in trying to explain this one, I would summarise it as follows; God is Truth, God is Love, God is Mercy, God is Compassion. And, as E says, God is Good.

All of those things, combined, eternal and unchanging.

Then we can ask your question. Is Love the ultimate source of morality? No. Is Truth the ultimate source of morality? No. Is Mercy or Compassion the ultimate source of morality? Imo, yes. Is Goodness the ultimate source of morality? No. I would say it is the result of it.

Human morality is very much culturally defined. We see easily enough that what is acceptable in one culture is not acceptable to another. It cannot be the case that all morality is therefore derived from God, because that would mean that a culture which accepted infanticide or cannibalism could then claim that God approves of these things. The Judeo Christian God does not approve of either (although that doesn't mean they do not occur, of course.)

God's morality is far higher than ours, and if we take it seriously it makes very great demands on us. Christ himself tells us that if we think murder is bad, then we need to realise that anger is just as bad; just as much a sin against God's will for the world. He challenges our complacency, and says if we really think we are moral, we need to think again.

However good we think we are, God always has more to demand from us. And, by extension, however moral we may think we are, we still have some way to go, something to learn, before we get anywhere near where God actually is, and where he would define morality to be.

 

[Catherineanne]

Then we were wrong to say that God was a moral agent, and that he therefore needs to look to some outside principle. God himself is the source of morality? When God says something is good then it must be good?

God does not ever have to refer to anyone or anything outside himself. There is nothing that he needs from creation; he is complete in himself, and needs nothing from us.

When he asks us to behave in a way that is pleasing to him it is for our benefit, and for the benefit of those around us, rather than for his.

 

[Metaphysicalwonderer]

Thanks for coming over so we could continue the discussion!

I am confused by your response because there are a number of contradictions. You said that, in a certain sense, God is the source of morality:

God is Mercy, God is Compassion...Is Mercy or Compassion the ultimate source of morality? Imo, yes.

However, you clearly state that God is not the source of morality:

It cannot be the case that all morality is therefore derived from God

While I would agree with you, this is counter to what Christianity tells us, and counter to what you have said earlier. Can you explain more clearly please?