God and Time

SuperCloud · Jul 20, 2015

So, I thought I was going to receiving a berating and lecture on math from my post #71.

God does not have to exist, does not have to be discussed, to ask and answer the question as to how point zero can exist simultaneously within the infinity symbol, in infinity itself as measurements.

Math I have read is a language. So, 1+2 and 0+5 is a language.

-2, -1, 0, 1, 2 how does point zero exist with infinity? Given the language of numbers are used to describe and import meaning on that measurement we call time?

There is probably a good answer. Maybe it is a simple one to most people. I dunno. As I said... I'm not very good at math or comprehending math, especially in its increasing complexity.

D2wing · Jul 20, 2015

pshun2404 said:
No this being is beyond "Chronos". The eternal IS. The temporal is fleeting moment by moment. That which is caused does not have any effect on the cause. The cause does not have to act it simply is the cause. That which it caused fulfills its purpose. However the cause can act and not change because that is its nature. The terms used are merely for our comprehension (so we can catch a glimpse). In the eternal the past, present, and future are one. That which will occur in the temporal are a done deed in the eternal. The entire temporal process has already played out. It is only in our experience that one event follows the other.

This is how He speaks of the future in completed actions foreknowing the outcome exactly. So prescient sections of the Bible (like Daniel 9) do not have to occur after the events (and in fact did not). Not because He caused the specific actions and choices but because He foreknew them. Real genuine choice is still there. His creatures have a will, Him knowing the final actions and choices every created thing will do or make. All this was included (even the end) from Bereshith (the Beginning). This beginning only refers to the temporal, as does the chronos concept of time (it is a relative term).

Initiating action is the nature of this eternal being (He is the ultimate cause of all "things") He is just not subject to the effect of chronos (beginning, maturing, and ending). The initiated actions are already what was to be temporally experienced by His creation.

I agree with this. There are two kinds of time, our time is temporal. It only exists in this moment. There is a measurable past, present and future.
The other time is eternal. It has no distinct past present and future and existed before temporal time. God is eternal, without time in our sense of time. He exists outside our concept of time.
Before God created time he always was. But we and creation were not. I agreed that when he created time he created all things. Past present and future. Before time there was no speed or distance. All things were in one place or originated from one place. When all things were created they moved from this one place at unimaginable speed. According to relativity at the moment of creation, things may have moved so fast the time stood still. A day could have taken two billion years.
But with God nothing has to be chronological as it does to us. Time can overlap, Extend backwards or be however he pleases.
Both the creation story and the 13 billion year story can be true. It is not a problem for God, just us.

elopez · Jul 20, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
So why posit a personal creator god at all then? If that is correct, then timeless matter can also cease to be timeless and become spatiotemporal.

What do you mean timeless matter?

elopez · Jul 20, 2015

Nicholas Deka said:
Doesn't matter if it's thoughts, that was just an illustration. It could just as well be actions or anything else. Or nothing else. Point is, that no time passed no matter what was going on.

Well my point is that there really can be no order of thoughts or whatever. If there is no time without the universe, God simply exists. No time would pass for there to be an order of anything.

D2wing · Jul 20, 2015

Achilles6129 said:
William Lane Craig says that God is timeless without creation and temporal with creation:

http://www.amazon.com/Time-Eternity...38144&sr=1-1&keywords=william+lane+craig+time

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/scholarly-articles/divine-eternity

Personally, I think that time may not run in a straight line for God like it does in this universe. Rather, it may run radically differently for him. I'm still trying to figure out how that might work in reality, however.

I partially agree. God is still timeless or better, eternal, but his creation exists in time, so to us it seems God exists in time because it is what we understand. But he is still timeless in that he is eternal and has made some things to be eternal as well as opposed to temporal.

D. A. Taylor · Jul 20, 2015

Once God created something that was not eternal, the measurement of that object's progress toward non-existence began.

D2wing · Jul 20, 2015

I suppose so. I had not though of it in that way. But I have thought that because everything we know of is the now, it is already gone or changed by the time we see it or sense it because time has passed and it is no longer now. I sometimes think that another world could exist just seconds before or after what we think of as now in the same space. Perhaps a thought too far.

Chriliman · Jul 20, 2015

D. A. Taylor said:
Once God created something that was not eternal, the measurement of that object's progress toward non-existence began.

If God eternally exists, how can anything he creates not exist forever? If he brought something into existence then takes it out of existence he would be contradicting himself. It would be like that which existed never existed in the first place. I believe there is no such thing as non-existence, because it clearly says in revelation that anything evil will suffer day and night forever and ever.

D. A. Taylor · Jul 20, 2015

D2wing said:
I suppose so. I had not though of it in that way. But I have thought that because everything we know of is the now, it is already gone or changed by the time we see it or sense it because time has passed and it is no longer now. I sometimes think that another world could exist just seconds before or after what we think of as now in the same space. Perhaps a thought too far.

Just the thought that God has existed forever stretches my mind way beyond it's limits. Yet I know it must be true, because I do not believe that "something came out of nothing."

D2wing · Jul 20, 2015

Chriliman said:
If God eternally exists, how can anything he creates not exist forever? If he brought something into existence then takes it out of existence he would be contradicting himself. It would be like that which existed never existed in the first place. I believe there is no such thing as non-existence, because it clearly says in revelation that anything evil will suffer day and night forever and ever.

That doesn't make any sense to me. If God creates something surely he can destroy it. It says many things will pass away in the Bible. Heaven and Earth will pass away. I don't understand your limitations on what God can do especially since it contradicts the Bible in many places.

Archaeopteryx · Jul 20, 2015

elopez said:
What do you mean timeless matter?

What do you mean by a timeless disembodied person?

D. A. Taylor · Jul 20, 2015

D2wing said:
That doesn't make any sense to me. If God creates something surely he can destroy it. It says many things will pass away in the Bible. Heaven and Earth will pass away. I don't understand your limitations on what God can do especially since it contradicts the Bible in many places.

I am not disagreeing with your argument. However, the Greek in Rev 21:1 for "passed away" does not mean destroyed. It's basic meaning is "to go away or depart, in order to take a secondary position." Which might indicate that God does not intend to destroy the earth. I'm not being dogmatic; I just think the accurate translation is interesting.

Archaeopteryx · Jul 20, 2015

elopez said:
Well my point is that there really can be no order of thoughts or whatever. If there is no time without the universe, God simply exists. No time would pass for there to be an order of anything.

Then in what sense does God "think"?

Moral Orel · Jul 21, 2015

elopez said:
Well my point is that there really can be no order of thoughts or whatever. If there is no time without the universe, God simply exists. No time would pass for there to be an order of anything.

That's exactly what I said in the OP! If anything happened without the existence of time, then it must be simultaneous, or nothing happened of course.

Moral Orel · Jul 21, 2015

D2wing said:
The other time is eternal. It has no distinct past present and future and existed before temporal time. God is eternal, without time in our sense of time. He exists outside our concept of time.
Before God created time he always was. But we and creation were not. I agreed that when he created time he created all things. Past present and future. Before time there was no speed or distance. All things were in one place or originated from one place.

I bolded the parts of your quote that I find interesting. You're saying that there is some kind of time that is eternal, and there is some kind of location that is eternal. But they are different from our time and our space? Why? If God can just manipulate them how he pleases, what reason is there that these "other" time and space need to be any different from our own?

Moral Orel · Jul 21, 2015

zippy2006 said:
I mostly disagree with all of that on philosophical grounds, but I don't have time to get into a long discussion about divine simplicity and and the transcendentals. Augustine and Aquinas write well on such topics. You could look at Aquinas' Summas and Augustine's works against the Manichaens.

I did look into a Augustine and Aquinas' theology, and I disagree wholeheartedly. But that would be the topic of a different thread, so I'm not going to get into it here.

If something is outside of time, then it doesn't change. If it changes, but does not change over time, then it is creating a logical contradiction. If A = B, and then later A = C, then it changed, as long as B =/= C. If time doesn't exist, then you would have to say A = B and A = C even if B =/= C.

So even if God doesn't change somehow from being someone who did not create anything to someone who did create something, it can be said that the universe can't change from nothing to something without time already existing.

D. A. Taylor · Jul 21, 2015

Not taking sides here. But the more I think about this subject, the more I feel like an ant watching a PHD computer scientist program a computer.

quatona · Jul 21, 2015

Nicholas Deka said:
So what explanation for this could there be? Thoughts?

My personal explanations: Back then when those people formed their God concepts, they simply took every superlative and big word (and in particular those ex-negativo and "beyond"-terms) they could get hold of, for their intimidating "wow"-factor. They didn´t really think twice, and they didn´t expect they´d be put to scrutinity.
The hardest job of theology has been and is to find complicated post-hoc rationalisations for those inconsiderate moves.

quatona · Jul 21, 2015

elopez said:
Well under the impression of God, He existed without the universe and time. Then the universe and time exists.

So God perceives stuff in terms of sequences (IOW time)?

Colter · Jul 21, 2015

Nicholas Deka said:
I've been thinking about what it means for God to create time itself, and it seems to mean strange things, so I thought I would share my thoughts and see what other people think.

First, if time doesn't exist, then time can't pass. This seems self evident, but it is important to think about.

Second, without the passage of time words like "before" and "after" are nonsense.

So from this it seems that anything that happens while time doesn't exist must happen simultaneously. Now given the concept of God, I don't think this is anything that is too hard for him. Of course he can do an infinite number of things and think an infinite number of thoughts all simultaneously, so don't think this is supposed to be a disproof of his existence.

So I'll put it into argument form given these premises.

1. Time doesn't pass until time exists
2. We measure age based on the amount of time that has passed.
3. No time passed until God created time.
4. God's age is equal to the amount of time that has passed since time was created.

So wether you believe the universe is 13.7 billion years old, or you believe that the universe is 6000 years old, we all pretty much agree that time began to exist at the onset of creation. I believe the theory of general relativity and the big bang theory state this, and that is why it is so hard (impossible?) to see what is beyond that threshold.

But it seems that without time, "eternity" is a nonsense word just like "before" and "after". Eternity needs to extend infinitely backwards in time in order for it to make sense (and infinitely forwards). So to say that God is eternal, but to say that time is not, seems like nonsense to me.

So what explanation for this could there be? Thoughts?

Time or, the perception of sequence of events by material mind, is relative to a fixed point; the point has no time consciousness. Infinity is not a long time as conceived by finite mind, infinity is timeless.

2:1.5 "No thing is new to God, and no cosmic event ever comes as a surprise; he inhabits the circle of eternity. He is without beginning or end of days. To God there is no past, present, or future; all time is present at any given moment. He is the great and only I AM.

2:1.6 The Universal Father is absolutely and without qualification infinite in all his attributes; and this fact, in and of itself, automatically shuts him off from all direct personal communication with finite material beings and other lowly created intelligences.

12:5.1 Like space, time is a bestowal of Paradise, but not in the same sense, only indirectly. Time comes by virtue of motion and because mind is inherently aware of sequentiality. From a practical viewpoint, motion is essential to time, but there is no universal time unit based on motion except in so far as the Paradise-Havona standard day is arbitrarily so recognized. The totality of space respiration destroys its local value as a time source.

12:5.2 Space is not infinite, even though it takes origin from Paradise; not absolute, for it is pervaded by the Unqualified Absolute. We do not know the absolute limits of space, but we do know that the absolute of time is eternity." Urantia Book 1955

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