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God and the flood

Itinerant Lurker

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I want to follow this out with you for a minute.

God should have spared who?

You tell me who God should have spared from the flood.

Six year old girls?

God should never have sent a flood. A flood is a stupid way to punish a society precisely because it kills people indiscriminately. One would think that a moral God would have intervened on behalf of those who were being harmed to protect them as well as to protect those who were causing no harm. Clearly, children fall into this category. . .but we don't even have to go that far - we can stick with a single example of a six year old girl because killing one child is still not moral.
 
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Itinerant Lurker

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Whatever God commands is what is obligatory, whatever He forbids is forbidden. This is Divine Command Theory of which I am an adherent.

If God commanded you to kill every man, woman, and child of a city would you obey?
 
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anonymous person

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God should never have sent a flood. A flood is a stupid way to punish a society precisely because it kills people indiscriminately. One would think that a moral God would have intervened on behalf of those who were being harmed to protect them as well as to protect those who were causing no harm. Clearly, children fall into this category. . .but we don't even have to go that far - we can stick with a single example of a six year old girl because killing one child is still not moral.
So He should have spared everyone?
 
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Itinerant Lurker

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So He should have spared everyone?

I'm fairly sure that's not what I said by virtue of the fact that I used different words to convey different ideas.

Would you have killed everyone other than Noah's family?
 
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Davian

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But what about the poor babies in their mother's womb!!! What about the poor little innocent babies!!! You may say....
I am not saying they are innocent, I am asking for what they are being held accountable for.
In response I will say that I have never seen so many people indignant over the killing of unborn children in my life than I have seen here in the past few days since discussing this issue. All of a sudden people who are all for abortion
That's a mighty wide brush you are waving around there.
are all of a sudden against the killing of unborn children. As long as evil men and women
By "evil" you mean, "not convinced of your religious claims".
decide to kill unborn children it's ok because they should have that right,
And you think they should not have that right? Who decides?
but let God be found to take back the life of a baby He caused to be conceived in the first place and He is a monster.

Lunacy.
It is all in how you justify it.
The pregnant women in that day were no less guilty of their incorrigibility just because they were pregnant.
"Guilty" of disbelief. Belief is not a conscious choice. Or is it, for the purposes of this hypothetical?
They should have walked up into the ark. Then they and their child would have been saved alive.
Please quote the bible verses to support this statement. Or this this your own addition?
They didn't and they perished and their child was immediately ushered into the presence of God having been spared from being born into and raised up in the most evil time in human history.
By "evil", you mean disbelief.
It's one of those things where God can do no right. Whatever He does, someone will accuse Him of evil.
By "evil", you mean bad in relation to human wellness.
Let's say He spared every pregnant woman and every baby born and every child that had not yet become morally culpable. If He had done this, you would have people accusing Him of being morally bankrupt for killing their families and destroying their tents and livestock. The fact that He let them live would be no credit t God in these people's eyes, for they are fault finders.
Don't blame the existence of faults on your critics.^_^
So it seems to me while this discussion can be fruitful in showing us that our conceptualization of certain issues needs to be ammended, it will not cause a person who is a fault finder to cease from their fault finding.
Particularly with during the examination of a faulty theology.
 
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anonymous person

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I'm fairly sure that's not what I said by virtue of the fact that I used different words to convey different ideas.

So He should not have spared everyone?


He either should have spared everyone or not.

You obviously think He should not have spared everyone.

Therefore, who should He have not spared?
 
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Itinerant Lurker

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So He should not have spared everyone?


He either should have spared everyone or not.

You obviously think He should not have spared everyone.

Therefore, who should He have not spared?

Is there something unclear about my first answer? One would think that a moral God would have intervened on behalf of those who were being harmed to protect them as well as to protect those who were causing no harm.

Would you have killed everyone other than Noah's family?
 
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Davian

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Children in the womb don't drown.
That makes it okay then. Why didn't you bring this up earlier? I'll tell that to my little one as we play with her cute toys.
I still have had no luck in tracking down the "Drowning Family" expansion pack.
 
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bhsmte

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Whatever God commands is what is obligatory, whatever He forbids is forbidden. This is Divine Command Theory of which I am an adherent.

I know, you are a big Willy Craig fan.

Sam Harris raises the same points on this video, that many have on this and other threads and discusses why this type of thinking is morally bankrupt.

 
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anonymous person

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Is there something unclear about my first answer? One would think that a moral God would have intervened on behalf of those who were being harmed to protect them as well as to protect those who were causing no harm.

Would you have killed everyone other than Noah's family?

God did intervene on Noah and his family's behalf.

God did intervene to protect Noah and his family seeing as how they were causing no harm.
 
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anonymous person

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I know, you are a big Willy Craig fan.

Sam Harris raises the same points on this video, that many have on this and other threads and discusses why this type of thinking is morally bankrupt.



Yea and Sam Harris affirms the existence of objective moral values and duties too.

But this thread is not about any of this. So stay on topic please.
 
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bhsmte

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Yea and Sam Harris affirms the existence of objective moral values and duties too.

But this thread is not about any of this. So stay on topic please.

Then don't bring up divine command theory. When you do, it is open to discuss.
 
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Davian

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God did not command Noah to drown anyone. God brought the flood upon the earth Himself. He took their lives. The lives He gave them which they used for evil He cut short.
Bu "evil", you mean "disbelief".
Your problem is that you do not see sin the way God does.
And I do not have a theology that I must keep propped up.
This is understandable. None of us do unless God reveals it to us
By "reveals", you mean telepathically transmitted into your brain in a means that is indistinguishable from your imagination.
and I think many times we are hindered from seeing because we don't want to see.
Belief is not a conscious choice.
You see these people as people not really deserving of death. God did and killed them.
It does seem incongruous with the concept of only holding one accountable for things within one's control.
If He had not acted, I see no reason to think any of us would even be here to talk about the issue. Mankind would have long since destroyed itself.
Keep in mind that this is only your hypothetical we are discussing. You wouldn't want this thread reported for apologetics.
 
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Itinerant Lurker

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God did intervene on Noah and his family's behalf.

God did intervene to protect Noah and his family seeing as how they were causing no harm.

Yet we are not talking about Noah and his family, we are talking about all the other people - a percentage of whom we both agree were not causing harm in this scenario. Would you have drowned them?

I've also noted that you apparently missed my earlier question: If god ordered you to kill every man, woman, and child in a city would you do it?
 
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anonymous person

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all the other people - a percentage of whom we both agree were not causing harm in this scenario. Would you have drowned them?

If God commanded me to I would.


I've also noted that you apparently missed my earlier question: If god ordered you to kill every man, woman, and child in a city would you do it?

No. If god ordered me to do that I would not do it.

If God ordered me to do that I would do it.
 
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nomadictheist

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I don't think that you actually know this. It certainly doesn't state this in the text.

Moreover, "almost certainly" means that some percentage of them would not be sent to hell.



Okay, so God is the kind of person who decides to drown children because their parents are bad because he is so committed to drowning as the means by which to kill people. That doesn't seem like mercy to me. . .



The assumption I'm making is that drowning children because their parents were bad is not moral. Are you disagreeing with this?
Yes, actually, I am. You call it not moral because you look at it from the human perspective of ending their earthly life, but when life on earth ends, a new life - an eternal life - begins. God's mercy to those who are His is calling them home. His mercy to those who don't yet know or love Him is leaving His servants in the world long enough to tell them about His love.
Arguments of this sort always remind me of the fall of Beziers during the Albigensian Crusade. The church called a crusade to destroy the Cathars in France, who among other things did not recognize the authority of the pope. When the city of Beziers refused to open their gates to the papal army attacked the city and stormed the churches where its people took sanctuary. The papal legate was asked how they were to tell the heretic Cathars from their fellow Catholics and he answered, "Kill them all. God will recognize his own." And they were - thousands of men, women, and children.

I don't think that if God had given that same order at Beziers it would have been moral, do you?

You make the common mistake of believing that morality stems from humanity. Once again, this requires a humanistic philosophy, which if you believe the Bible is completely inaccurate.

God is the only lawgiver and judge. What is moral is defined by God, though we often try to impose our own definitions and values on it.

And, once again, it's not about pain and suffering in this world - that will be forgotten in the next. It's about eternity. How do we know that, in the time that it took them to drown, some of these people didn't recognize that this judgment was from God and repent in their last moments, therefore escaping the final destination of hell? They certainly wouldn't have that chance with a sudden, instant death. The idea that for God to cause someone to suffer is evil or immoral is not only anti-biblical, but absurd. If we, as humans, have the right to cause other humans to suffer for breaking the law we imposed upon them without being called immoral, how much more does God have the right to cause the beings that He created to suffer for breaking His perfect law?

God caused Jesus - His own Son - to suffer more than any of those people drowning in the flood ever suffered - and all so that we could obtain forgiveness. Yet so many of us continue to reject Him, and not only that but to blaspheme Him by calling Him unloving and unmerciful. And still He reaches out to us in mercy, desiring that all of us come to salvation.

Additionally, the idea that an act of judgment is devoid of mercy because it involves suffering is also absurd. You would hardly call it unmerciful for, say, a judge to offer a criminal the mercy of a short sentence but still require him to undergo the suffering of a few years behind bars. But for God to allow children to forego an eternity of suffering and cause them to suffer for a few moments instead, you deem that unmerciful (and unmoral). Interesting.
 
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