God and Morality

[Corpus Aristotelicum]

This seems like it would be better suited for a board where non-Christians ask Christians questions and no other non-Christians can respond in the thread. But perhaps I'm misunderstanding your intentions.

I would like to see more Christian, Muslim, and Jewish participation. I would rather get multiple viewpoints rather than just the Christian understanding. I might have to put the question other places to get more different people to participate.

Thanks

 

[Corpus Aristotelicum]

According to scripture alot of times God was formless. When je appeared to Moses in the burning bush or when he was at mount sinai in the form of a thick black cloud. According to Jesus in the gospels when we are resurrected we will not be married or given in marriage evryone will be perfect like the angels. So by that logic i dont think God has a need to abide by our concecpt of morality. However he did order adam and eve to procreate and populate the earth and multiply. That tells me that God has an idea of how we should behave and treat oursleves in our concept of morality

Most Christians believe Jesus was God in the Flesh. Did Jesus not act within the Morality of the Law and Prophets (The Hebrew Bible)?

I'm not suggesting that God would be required to follow our understanding of Morality. Perhaps mentioning capability is misleading. Would one expect God to be a role model of Morality or simply a source of it?

 

[Corpus Aristotelicum]

You state you are agnostic and a deist, yet you apparently want a discussion of the Christian God since you want the discussion based on scripture. Nevertheless, since you asked...

A mere human cannot know the reasons God does the things He does, so we can only judge the things He did using our own concepts of right and wrong and His Actions.

• God, with supposed omniscience, created Adam & Eve; gave them a commandment that He knew they would disobey; blamed them for their disobedience; imposed Sin on all of mankind.
• When His creation became really bad, as He knew it would, He killed all of it (except just a few people and animals) in a very horrible way.
• He instructed His people to kill the widows and male children of His peoples vanquished enemies and to "take" the young virgins for themselves.
• He sent one part of Himself to earth for thirty years to preach about love. He then allowed that one part to give up its earthly persona and be rejoined in Heaven. For an eternal God, thirty years as a human is not much of a "sacrifice"

I realize, being Atheist, your statements here are based on a text you personally don't believe, which is a good exercise for anyone to undertake to expand one's perspective and understanding of what other people might believe.

So my additional questions are based on this exercise.

If humans are incapable of understanding the Morality of God's actions, would it not follow we are incapable of judging Right from Wrong to being with? Would we not expect a Loving God to impart us with the understanding necessarily to determine that not only God's actions but our own are in accord with Good actions? Otherwise how can we be expected to judge the Bible as true?

 

[Eryk]

If humans are incapable of understanding the Morality of God's actions, would it not follow we are incapable of judging Right from Wrong to being with? Would we not expect a Loving God to impart us with the understanding necessarily to determine that not only God's actions but our own are in accord with Good actions? Otherwise how can we be expected to judge the Bible as true?

But God is understood as a king who is above the laws he decrees to others. We have notions of equality and the rule of law that the ancients did not have. Created beings are the property of the Creator and he does whatever he wants with them. The New Testament didn't shed this idea, but the incarnation (Jesus) demonstrates God's loving character in the healings, the free offer of salvation, and supremely in giving his own life.

 

[Corpus Aristotelicum]

But God is understood as a king who is above the laws he decrees to others. We have notions of equality and the rule of law that the ancients did not have. Created beings are the property of the Creator and he does whatever he wants with them. The New Testament didn't shed this idea, but the incarnation (Jesus) demonstrates God's loving character in the healings, the free offer of salvation, and supremely in giving his own life.

As mentioned in another reply:

Would one expect God to be a role model of Morality or simply a source of it?

If we answer, only a source of it, then would it not be pointless to say Jesus was without Sin when Jesus is God and therefore Above the Law? Why would Jesus follow the Law if not for the purpose of being a good role model?

 

[fhansen]

I want to have a civil discussion on the topic of God and Morality.

I want to state a few things up front:

1. This is not a debate. This is a discussion. If you find this statement confusing, please read this for clarification: https://ginsberg.umich.edu/content/debate-vs-dialogue-vs-discussion

2. The term "God" in the context of this discussion is in reference to the Abrahamic Creator of the Universe that is spoken of in the Hebrew Bible, "The Holy Bible", and the Qur'an.

3. I want this thread to essentially be a series of individual discussions. Why you might ask? Because I do not enjoy Assuming what someone else believes. I want them to state what they believe and progress with a series of questions. Because of the diversity of beliefs, I must ask basic questions to further the discussion on a common playing field. Not doing this would be like a group of people saying "Let's play a sport!" and one person starts playing soccer while the other is expecting to play baseball. The result is chaos and confusion.

4. I am agnostic on matters of faith. Being a Deist I believe in a creator of sorts, but not necessarily a personal Deity with certain characteristics. Because of this asking me what I believe (As a matter of faith) will result in the same honest response...I do not know. The point of this thread is to help me and others understand what you, the participates, believe and more importantly...why.

So I'll start by asking a my first question.

What are God's characteristics and qualities? You could also touch on the topic of whether God is capable of performing an immoral action and how morality is defined in your world view.

Especially list out the ones most important to the topic of morality.

God is love and everything He does is driven by and consistent with love and totally contrary to evil.

 

[Eryk]

As mentioned in another reply:

Would one expect God to be a role model of Morality or simply a source of it?

If we answer, only a source of it, then would it not be pointless to say Jesus was without Sin when Jesus is God and therefore Above the Law? Why would Jesus follow the Law if not for the purpose of being a good role model?

Indeed, one can only love what is good. This is not to put God on trial by human standards, but we believe that goodness has its source in God. Really, a supreme being wouldn't be petulant and arbitrary like the worst caesars. He would be both supremely powerful and supremely kind.

 

[Cearbhall]

I would like to see more Christian, Muslim, and Jewish participation. I would rather get multiple viewpoints rather than just the Christian understanding. I might have to put the question other places to get more different people to participate.

Thanks

Ah. Gotcha.

 

[ecco]

So my additional questions are based on this exercise.

If humans are incapable of understanding the Morality of God's actions, would it not follow we are incapable of judging Right from Wrong to being with?

I do think that humans are capable of understanding the morality as expressed in Holy Scripture. The problem is there are a lot of things written on both sides of the issue. Couple that with the fact that everyone interprets scripture as they see fit and there are lot of ways things can go wrong. One example would be Christians accepting slavery (in the 1700 & 1800's) and justifying it based on scripture.

Would we not expect a Loving God to impart us with the understanding necessarily to determine that not only God's actions but our own are in accord with Good actions?

No. I don't think any religion provides clear guidelines and understanding.

Otherwise how can we be expected to judge the Bible as true?

I'll have to comment on the other side of that question. All the contradictions show me that the bible is not true. Even many Christians take many parts of the bible as allegory rather than literal truth (Genesis for example).

 

[rickyknight1]

Most Christians believe Jesus was God in the Flesh. Did Jesus not act within the Morality of the Law and Prophets (The Hebrew Bible)?

I'm not suggesting that God would be required to follow our understanding of Morality. Perhaps mentioning capability is misleading. Would one expect God to be a role model of Morality or simply a source of it?

I personally think we are supposed to imitate Jesus. He was flesh just like us except without sin. Like paul said he set the standard for us to live by. Also to quote jesus concerning morality he did say- you shall love the lord your god with all your heart with all your mind and with all your soul. And the second is like it you shall love your neighbor as yourslef and in doing this you wi fulfill all the laws and the prophets

 

[rickyknight1]

Most Christians believe Jesus was God in the Flesh. Did Jesus not act within the Morality of the Law and Prophets (The Hebrew Bible)?

I'm not suggesting that God would be required to follow our understanding of Morality. Perhaps mentioning capability is misleading. Would one expect God to be a role model of Morality or simply a source of it?

I guess the only way to answer that is to look in the old testament. God specifically told the isrealites in the 10 commandments- thy shall have no other Gods before me. So in the concept of morality we should always go to the bible first. Because paul says it, "whatever is worthy, whatever is honorable. Think about such things." He says it once again when talking to Titus, he told him to continue doing good works and not to forget the main theme of God's message which is love. As far as proper conduct or morality is concerned, i always use the book of proverbs. Honestly its my bread and butter i use the proverbs pretty much in my everyday life

 

[fhansen]

I do think that humans are capable of understanding the morality as expressed in Holy Scripture. The problem is there are a lot of things written on both sides of the issue. Couple that with the fact that everyone interprets scripture as they see fit and there are lot of ways things can go wrong. One example would be Christians accepting slavery (in the 1700 & 1800's) and justifying it based on scripture.



No. I don't think any religion provides clear guidelines and understanding.


I'll have to comment on the other side of that question. All the contradictions show me that the bible is not true. Even many Christians take many parts of the bible as allegory rather than literal truth (Genesis for example).

Yes, Scripture is a big book, comprised of many, varied, writings- 30 some odd thousand verses. Presumably people can use it-and have used it- to justify virtually any and all behavior they can conceive of. This is why it's always been considered to be the role of the Church to understand and pronounce on the nature and will of God. And in any case the nature of God revealed by Christ is that of a love for man so unfathomably immense that we're still only now beginning to better understand, and follow Him, in it. Meanwhile we also have the option of rejecting it -and straying even farther away from it.

 

[ecco]

My emphasis...

Yes, Scripture is a big book, comprised of many, varied, writings- 30 some odd thousand verses. Presumably people can use it-and have used it- to justify virtually any and all behavior they can conceive of. This is why it's always been considered to be the role of the Church to understand and pronounce on the nature and will of God. And in any case the nature of God revealed by Christ is that of a love for man so unfathomably immense that we're still only now beginning to better understand, and follow Him, in it. Meanwhile we also have the option of rejecting it -and straying even farther away from it.

The Church has understood and pronounced on and approved of inquisitions, witch burnings, slavery, hatred of blacks, hatred of Jews, etc.

 

[fhansen]

My emphasis...

The Church has understood and pronounced on and approved of inquisitions, witch burnings, slavery, hatred of blacks, hatred of Jews, etc.

Pronouncements as a matter of teaching the faith, no, which is why you won't find any of that in a catechism, for example, because none of it touches on formally defining the faith. Specific pronouncements or sanctions on practices at various times in history, yes, which only shows that the church didn't always heed her own message-or let it's light regarding God's love and our obligation to conform ourselves to it penetrate deeply. This takes time, collectively or individually.

But coming from and living through times of great upheaval and peril, society itself welcomed harsh measures; the faith was seen as supremely worthy of protection and preservation when compared to the alternatives. And while we recognize better than ever now that a church/state alliance that binds them too intimately isn't healthy, the Church nevertheless continued to inspire and perform great strides in advancing the human condition. In ancient Greece and the Roman Empire newborns that were weak, deformed, or otherwise unwanted were left out in the wilds to die. This practice was done away with by Christianity, as was the wanton sharing of wives, treated as chattel, with other men. Learning was preserved and later developed through the Fall of Rome and the Dark Ages. Education-schools and the university system-was developed. Altruism became an accepted authentic value; orphanages, hospitals, innumerable hours of charitable work and quantities of wealth given in feeding the hungry and clothing the naked. Offering hope and light and order in an otherwise often hopeless seeming world, promoting the pursuit of excellence in general. These, too, are the legacy of the Church, part of our own common human legacy.

 

[ecco]

But coming from and living through times of great upheaval and peril, society itself welcomed harsh measures; the faith was seen as supremely worthy of protection and preservation when compared to the alternatives.

Harsh measures like burning witches to preserve the faith? Harsh measures like torturing Jews and taking their belongings to preserve the faith?

As to the rest of your post - OK more or less.

 

[fhansen]

Harsh measures like burning witches to preserve the faith? Harsh measures like torturing Jews and taking their belongings to preserve the faith?

As to the rest of your post - OK more or less.

Often, yes, unfortunately. People behaving badly, guaranteed by original sin, often failing to love as we're called to regardless of the fact that we expect more-and should expect more- from the Church's people.

 

[Job8]

What are God's characteristics and qualities? You could also touch on the topic of whether God is capable of performing an immoral action and how morality is defined in your world view.

Especially list out the ones most important to the topic of morality.

Among many other attributes, the God of the Bible is One who is absolutely holy and righteous. Therefore morality is a necessary outcome of righteousness, and all morality and spirituality for mankind is summed up in the Ten Commandments.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

That sounds inspiring Job8, maybe it helps people work on the ideas of good and evil independently, ie after the theological intuition. Thats my theory, "God as moral agent" was maybe a prelimanary to secularised ethics. Good and evil spirits ectc, the concept of these formed a basis upon which moral philosophies could nucleate.