God and His love

[StillGods]

I've said before that irresistability doesn't mean that grace can't be resisted. It is. But those running from God means that they do believe in God in some sense, as God has revealed Himself, and they are running because they believe. It's just one step away from hoping in Christ. The wisdom of God and the seed of God's word often comes to people in stages and in progression. But God is working in those peoples' hearts and will come to Christ in God's good time. So, since God is more powerful than the human will, He will win out in the end over every soul He has chosen.

The way I read the apostle Paul, anyone who rejects the gospel doesn't understand. This isn't talking about natural reasoning of a person who thinks they understand it, like A=B, B=C, therefore A=C. This kind of understanding for embracing the message and obeying it takes spiritual wisdom that only comes from above. If someone rejects the gospel, they are proving they don't understand it.

Paul cites 2 examples of those who reject the gospel: the Jews who stumble over it, and the Greeks who consider it nonsense. From where you're looking, you already have spiritual understanding (I assume). So your reasoning would not apply to someone who has no spiritual wisdom or understanding.
TD

But you have said grace cant be resisted.

 

[renniks]

t appears to me that you are confusing Reformed Theology with Determinism or Fatalism, they are not the same. You are confusing calvinism with hyper-calvinism, they are not the same

Actually, they are. Soft Calvinists just don't usually realize it, because their teachers throw up a smoke screen of secondary causes and compatibilism. But, it's the same thing, really, once you wade through the smoke.

 

[renniks]

So when you speak of "free will" in regard to relationship with God, you are essentially saying that your will is separate and distinct from God, and the implication is that your will is not reconciled to God. The way I read the apostle Paul in Rom. 6, is that when we are reconciled with God, we become free from sin and slaves to righteousness. So, if we are a slave to Christ as He says, then our will is not free to commit sin any more, being a slave of righteousness. That's the nature of slavery. (Albeit, not saying we become perfect, but are on a journey to holiness).

And the same with those who are slaves to sin. The nature of slavery is that they cannot free themselves. Therefore, they cannot believe to be justified with God and be free from their sin, until they are freed from their sin. This requires a spiritual awakening which only God can give them. Total Depravity is a spiritual truth, that men are stuck in their sinful nature, until God releases them through the gospel message, by virtue of regeneration.

Of course, we have a distinct will that is separate and distinct, that's why we have to surrender it. The slavery metaphor is, like all metaphors, imperfect. If you're going to tell me you can't still chose to sin, I'm just going to have to say you are not being truthful. That being the case, the slavery of being in sin also does not make it impossible to respond to God. Regeneration happens after belief.

 

[renniks]

This statement is spoken as an absolute truth. So, He is not stating this as an option for people to do or not do. By your response, you are assuming that a person can make themselves into one of those given to Christ, but Jesus said "no one can..." Therefore, the context does not tell a person how to be elected, but only tells us who is.
TD

He also tells them to enter through him, that the ones who are his sheep are defined by following him. As I said, you read the Bible backwards. You start from your "everything is predestined" mindset and it causes you to read determinism into verses that don't contain it.
Jesus says no one can come to him unless the Father draws them. He doesn't say that his Father only draws certain people, or that one cannot resist the drawing.

 

[renniks]

Yes, God has ultimate control of all circumstances, but this does not mean that He causes people to sin. It means that He is so wise as to manipulate circumstances the way He wants, in spite of the fact that people commit sin, and as the Bible says are "under the control of the evil one."

What do you mean by "control"? If you mean that God is literally controlling everything you do, then that means he is the one sinning, not you. If you only mean God isn't surprised by anything or that he doesn't have a plan to deal with it, that's a whole different thing, but its not literally control.

 

[tdidymas]

do you believe in God in Three Persons?
off topic just curious

If I have to answer that question, then it indicates that you can't read the context of what is written. The nature of my statement shows that I believe it, and using it as a basis for pointing out that the doctrines of Reformed Theology are taken out of scripture in the same way. Of course, I assume you believe it also, otherwise I wouldn't have made my point in this manner. In order to understand what is written in the bible, we have to get practiced at extracting the meaning of the text from the context, and avoid reading our own opinions into it.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

But you have said grace cant be resisted.

You still don't get it, and it makes me wonder if you have any spiritual understanding. Read 1 Cor. 2 and see that Paul makes a distinction between what is spiritual and what is natural. Spiritual reasoning relies on the revelation from God as written by the apostles and prophets, whereas natural reasoning relies on personal feelings and experience. Spiritual knowledge comes by illumination from the Spirit, and is deeply inset in the soul, which transcends feelings. Spiritual knowledge can't be felt or understood by natural reasoning, and it's why we need God's special revelation in scripture to teach us about it.

So, to hand you the answer on a "silver platter," the grace of God is resisted in the natural realm, but because of the power of the Spirit who overcomes the strength of man's resistance, God ultimately conquers the human soul.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Actually, they are. Soft Calvinists just don't usually realize it, because their teachers throw up a smoke screen of secondary causes and compatibilism. But, it's the same thing, really, once you wade through the smoke.

What if I accused you of believing in Pelagianism, saying that Arminianism and Pelagianism was essentially the same thing, and that Arminians just put up a smoke screen to hide that fact, and that Arminianism, like Pelagianism was essentially a works salvation? Would you say I was speaking accurately, or inaccurately?
TD

 

[renniks]

What if I accused you of believing in Pelagianism, saying that Arminianism and Pelagianism was essentially the same thing, and that Arminians just put up a smoke screen to hide that fact, and that Arminianism, like Pelagianism was essentially a works salvation? Would you say I was speaking accurately, or inaccurately?
TD

No, because I've studied both Arminianism and Calvinism enough to know the difference, yet soft calvnist just try to hold onto a contradiction and Hypers just take things to their logical conclusion. At least the hypers are honest.

 

[tdidymas]

Of course, we have a distinct will that is separate and distinct, that's why we have to surrender it. The slavery metaphor is, like all metaphors, imperfect. If you're going to tell me you can't still chose to sin, I'm just going to have to say you are not being truthful. That being the case, the slavery of being in sin also does not make it impossible to respond to God. Regeneration happens after belief.

It is typical to run to the extreme case in order to build a straw man that can be burned down. The extreme case you're running to is sinless perfection. So, you are claiming that because I'm not sinlessly perfect, my argument is not truthful. What you're doing is the common straw man argument.

I already told you that we are not perfect. Every person who doesn't understand that sanctification is progressive is going to have a lot of trouble in their walk. So since you leave this out, either you really don't know, or you do know, and your conversation is dishonest.

But in regard to slavery to sin, this is what Paul writes to describe it:
1. Blinded by the devil
2. Can't see the light of the gospel
3. Held captive by the devil to do his will
4. None who understands
5. None who seeks for God
6. Hostile toward God
7. Does not subject itself
8. Cannot please God
9. Dead in sin
10. Sold into bondage to sin
11. Wretched man
And John: "under the control of the evil one."
And Jesus: "slave to sin."
So do you say that Jesus was speaking an imperfect metaphor? Are you among those liberals who don't take these things literally?

So if the unbeliever can't please God, and faith in Christ pleases God so that He justifies the ungodly, then how can the unbeliever believe? He can't choose it because he can't please God. It takes God working in the unbeliever's soul for that individual to come to faith in Christ. That individual must be made by supernatural means to understand the gospel and receive wisdom from above to obey it. This requires that individual to be made spiritual, and this is regeneration. So when a person believes in Christ and is justified, he must first have been born of God, as 1 Jn. 5:1 declares.

If an unbeliever is "under the control of the evil one" as John declares, then he can't choose to believe the gospel. God must first set him free. "God translated us from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of His dear Son." This means being born of God is an act of God beyond our capability to understand what is happening to us. It is a spiritual event. So, in order for anyone to respond favorably to the gospel message, he "must be born again."
TD

 

[tdidymas]

He also tells them to enter through him, that the ones who are his sheep are defined by following him. As I said, you read the Bible backwards. You start from your "everything is predestined" mindset and it causes you to read determinism into verses that don't contain it.
Jesus says no one can come to him unless the Father draws them. He doesn't say that his Father only draws certain people, or that one cannot resist the drawing.

Look in the mirror, bro. From my POV you're the one reading it backwards. Our response to God comes after God has done His work of grace.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

What do you mean by "control"? If you mean that God is literally controlling everything you do, then that means he is the one sinning, not you. If you only mean God isn't surprised by anything or that he doesn't have a plan to deal with it, that's a whole different thing, but its not literally control.

You're confusing Reformed teaching with determinism, not the same.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

No, because I've studied both Arminianism and Calvinism enough to know the difference, yet soft calvnist just try to hold onto a contradiction and Hypers just take things to their logical conclusion. At least the hypers are honest.

The Open Theists also claim that they are honest Arminians. Do you agree with them?
TD

 

[renniks]

Are you among those liberals who don't take these things literally?

Apparently, you don't take slavery to righteous literally. Are you a liberal?

 

[renniks]

So if the unbeliever can't please God, and faith in Christ pleases God so that He justifies the ungodly, then how can the unbeliever believe? He can't choose it because he can't please God.

He can when he's under conviction. Or he can choose to remain in his current state.

 

[renniks]

Look in the mirror, bro. From my POV you're the one reading it backwards. Our response to God comes after God has done His work of grace.
TD

Seriously, read the whole chapter. He explains how to come to him first.

 

[renniks]

You're confusing Reformed teaching with determinism, not the same.
TD

No answer. Hmmm...

 

[renniks]

The Open Theists also claim that they are honest Arminians. Do you agree with them?
TD

No, but I have nothing against them. I just don't find them convincing. Because God created time, I don't see how he can be in time.

 

[tdidymas]

Apparently, you don't take slavery to righteous literally. Are you a liberal?

A slave can run from his master, but he is soon captured.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

He can when he's under conviction. Or he can choose to remain in his current state.

Under conviction, the unregenerate feigns submission because he is trying to appease God's wrath. As soon as he is out of God's presence he goes back to sinning, because it is his nature to do so, and the conviction is soon forgotten. For one to be converted, his nature must be changed.
TD