God and His love

[StillGods]

Nowhere in scripture does it say that God is a triune being. Do you reject that also? My point is that Jesus taught the concept in John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
"Shall come" - hmm, sounds like irresistability to me.

But since the gospel is spiritual in nature, that irresistability is spiritual. It's not saying that grace is not resisted in the natural realm. I'm pretty sure we all experience that because we are so steeped in sin.
TD

Godhead is mentioned in the Bible a few times. God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is mentioned repeatedly.
I dont think thats a good example to make your point just saying.

 

[StillGods]

No where does scripture say that the Holy Spirit's conviction is irresistible.

interesting.

 

[StillGods]

Your conclusion about what this verse means is based on your bias, not on what it actually says. It doesn't say that we were unregenerate when we believed. The same author John says in 1 John 5:1 "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..." He says "who believes... is born." It means that if I believe, I'm already born of God. It doesn't say "will be" or "can be" as you purport. It says "is," which means that the moment I believe, I am born of God. Whether one speculates that it is simultaneous or not, according to Paul's writings in 1 Cor. 2:14 and elsewhere, spiritual birth logically precedes faith. The one not spiritual can't understand, because the gospel is spiritual in nature. The one who understands and believes is already spiritual.

So then, when Jesus said the Spirit will convict the world, by systematic study of the scripture and observation of what actually happens, this is what it has to mean:
1. "the world" = not just Jews, but all nations
2. "He will convict" = The Spirit moves on people to make them spiritual people by spiritual rebirth, giving them the spiritual wisdom that only comes from above.

Reference John 3:8 "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." "You can't tell" means that human reasoning can't come to the correct conclusion about the gospel, because it is spiritual in nature. It takes an act of God to make someone born of Him. It's not a human decision (Jn. 1:13).

So according to Paul in 1 Cor. 2:14, a person has to be born again (be a spiritual person) in order to understand and believe the gospel.
TD

just because the Holy Spirit convicts someone doesnt mean they automatically turn to God, conviction can mean a person will run from God.

plenty of people understand the gospel and dont accept it.

The gospel is good news to those that accept it but to those that dont accept it not so good news because they know what they've rejected (wouldn't be bad news if you didnt understand you rejected God).

we are spiritual beings we get it. dont need a move of God to understand when you reject God theres consequences. just look around. we are a stiff necked people. Jesus Himself said that.

 

[StillGods]

it would be really interesting to go out street witnessing and survey a bunch of people and ask what their response to the gospel is out if these three.

yes - I understand and I accept that
yes - I understand and I reject that, it's not for me.
or - I need to think about that more.

not to evangelize as such (although that might be a nice byproduct) but just to see what the statistics were.

has anyone done that I wonder.

 

[StillGods]

the rich young ruler understood but walked away, he even spoke to Jesus Himself.. and walked away.

 

[renniks]

Let's cut to the chase. The idea of "free will" as it is used in this forum by those who advocate it, implies that the human will is "free" from God. Isn't this the real issue? If you have a "free will" in that sense, then your will is not God's will, but is separate and distinct, unreconciled, and unconnected. How then, will you be led by the Spirit?

If you don't have a free will, then all the scripture telling you to obey God's will is pointless. If you have no freedom to do otherwise, God is causing both your sin and obedience. It's fatalism, which is what Calvinism is at its core.

 

[renniks]

The same author John says in 1 John 5:1 "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..." He says "who believes... is born." It means that if I believe, I'm already born of God. It doesn't say "will be" or "can be" as you purport. It says "is," which means that the moment I believe, I am born of God.

Wow, that's convoluted. Yes it says the one who believes is born of God. Not the one who is born of God will believe. You have to read it backwards, along with the many verses that say the same, belief, then salvation.

 

[renniks]

. "the world" = not just Jews, but all nations
2. "He will convict" = The Spirit moves on people to make them spiritual people by spiritual rebirth, giving them the spiritual wisdom that only comes from above.

The world is everyone... why would you limit God's grace? Conviction doesn't automatically bring repentance. Conviction means reprove,
It "always implies the presentation of evidence. It is a decision presumed to be based upon a careful and discriminating consideration of all the proofs offered, and has a legal character, the verdict being rendered either in God's judgment (Romans 3:19), or before men (John 8:46) by an appeal to their consciences in which God's law is written (Romans 2:15). Since such conviction is addressed to the heart of the guilty, as well as concerning him externally, the word "reprove" is sometimes substituted.."
To reprove is an attempt to convince, it doesn't mean the one being convicted can't choose to reject God's prompting.
Many say: "almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian."
When presented with truth, we make our own choice.

 

[renniks]

My point is that Jesus taught the concept in John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

This doesn't imply that they are given unconditionally. In the same chapter, Jesus tells how to be one of those given.

 

[renniks]

So you're asking "what about the disobedient Christians"? Well, not everyone who goes to church is born again, are they? And not every born again person is mature in their faith, are they?

Doesn't even begin to answer the question. Calvinists insist Grace is irresistible. Does this only apply initially? Calvinist insist that everything happens because of God's decree. That means my sin is God's doing as much as my obedience.
Therefore, in your system, we do not have to obey. God does that for us, or not. We might as well just shrug and say whatever will be will be.

 

[corinth77777]

Doesn't even begin to answer the question. Calvinists insist Grace is irresistible. Does this only apply initially? Calvinist insist that everything happens because of God's decree. That means my sin is God's doing as much as my obedience.
Therefore, in your system, we do not have to obey. God does that for us, or not. We might as well just shrug and say whatever will be will be.

GOD IS BEHIND EVERYTHING BUT WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO TRUST...EITHER FALL INTO HIS WILL OR FAITH, OR BE OUTSIDE... IT.
I BELIEVE he's already called forth everything in Christ. It's God's work to get us to fall inline with His will. HE TEACHES US HOW TO OBEY HIM AND REWARD US WITH ETERNAL LIFE. WILL ALL BE TAUGHT BY Him?

 

[renniks]

GOD IS BEHIND EVERYTHING BUT WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO TRUST...EITHER FALL INTO HIS WILL OR FAITH, OR BE OUTSIDE... IT.

Very True.

 

[tdidymas]

Godhead is mentioned in the Bible a few times. God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is mentioned repeatedly.
I dont think thats a good example to make your point just saying.

Anyone not believing that Jesus and the Spirit are persons of the godhead can come to a different conclusion. So it does indeed show my point. Those who believe in the Trinity automatically read it that way, but the prooftexts don't prove it. The doctrine is taken from the wider context of scripture, and the doctrines of Reformed Theology are also taken from the wider context of scripture.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

just because the Holy Spirit convicts someone doesnt mean they automatically turn to God, conviction can mean a person will run from God.

plenty of people understand the gospel and dont accept it.

The gospel is good news to those that accept it but to those that dont accept it not so good news because they know what they've rejected (wouldn't be bad news if you didnt understand you rejected God).

we are spiritual beings we get it. dont need a move of God to understand when you reject God theres consequences. just look around. we are a stiff necked people. Jesus Himself said that.

I've said before that irresistability doesn't mean that grace can't be resisted. It is. But those running from God means that they do believe in God in some sense, as God has revealed Himself, and they are running because they believe. It's just one step away from hoping in Christ. The wisdom of God and the seed of God's word often comes to people in stages and in progression. But God is working in those peoples' hearts and will come to Christ in God's good time. So, since God is more powerful than the human will, He will win out in the end over every soul He has chosen.

The way I read the apostle Paul, anyone who rejects the gospel doesn't understand. This isn't talking about natural reasoning of a person who thinks they understand it, like A=B, B=C, therefore A=C. This kind of understanding for embracing the message and obeying it takes spiritual wisdom that only comes from above. If someone rejects the gospel, they are proving they don't understand it.

Paul cites 2 examples of those who reject the gospel: the Jews who stumble over it, and the Greeks who consider it nonsense. From where you're looking, you already have spiritual understanding (I assume). So your reasoning would not apply to someone who has no spiritual wisdom or understanding.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

If you don't have a free will, then all the scripture telling you to obey God's will is pointless. If you have no freedom to do otherwise, God is causing both your sin and obedience. It's fatalism, which is what Calvinism is at its core.

It appears to me that you are confusing Reformed Theology with Determinism or Fatalism, they are not the same. You are confusing calvinism with hyper-calvinism, they are not the same. You are confusing the idea of natural free will with the idea of spiritual free will. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude that in the natural realm, human beings have free will from each other, since they are able to choose differently from what other people want, except for the cases of coercion or distress. In the spiritual realm it is different, as God is sovereign there.

So when you speak of "free will" in regard to relationship with God, you are essentially saying that your will is separate and distinct from God, and the implication is that your will is not reconciled to God. The way I read the apostle Paul in Rom. 6, is that when we are reconciled with God, we become free from sin and slaves to righteousness. So, if we are a slave to Christ as He says, then our will is not free to commit sin any more, being a slave of righteousness. That's the nature of slavery. (Albeit, not saying we become perfect, but are on a journey to holiness).

And the same with those who are slaves to sin. The nature of slavery is that they cannot free themselves. Therefore, they cannot believe to be justified with God and be free from their sin, until they are freed from their sin. This requires a spiritual awakening which only God can give them. Total Depravity is a spiritual truth, that men are stuck in their sinful nature, until God releases them through the gospel message, by virtue of regeneration.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Wow, that's convoluted. Yes it says the one who believes is born of God. Not the one who is born of God will believe. You have to read it backwards, along with the many verses that say the same, belief, then salvation.

You should not assume chronology in statements in scripture just because one thing is written after another thing. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if someone says "anyone who has a right to an inheritance is born into that family," that the birth into the family comes before the right to the inheritance. And since believing in Christ is taking the right to that inheritance in Christ, then being born of God comes first. So I think you see convolution because you want to see it, not because there's any there.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

The world is everyone... why would you limit God's grace? Conviction doesn't automatically bring repentance. Conviction means reprove,
It "always implies the presentation of evidence. It is a decision presumed to be based upon a careful and discriminating consideration of all the proofs offered, and has a legal character, the verdict being rendered either in God's judgment (Romans 3:19), or before men (John 8:46) by an appeal to their consciences in which God's law is written (Romans 2:15). Since such conviction is addressed to the heart of the guilty, as well as concerning him externally, the word "reprove" is sometimes substituted.."
To reprove is an attempt to convince, it doesn't mean the one being convicted can't choose to reject God's prompting.
Many say: "almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian."
When presented with truth, we make our own choice.

Ok, I'll go with you on that, conviction brings shame so that people are convinced they are wrong, whether or not they believe the gospel and receive the grace of God. So then, that verse cannot be used either way, to support irresistable grace or to refute it. The doctrine isn't necessarily proven by proof texts, but is taken from the wider context of scripture.

The "almost persuaded" people are culpable for their rejection of the gospel because they were given natural reasoning and possibly even convicted, as you say, by the Spirit, and possibly even felt fear and shame. But the fact is, until God does a supernatural work in such people, they will continue to reject Christ, as Jesus spoke of in John 6:44.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

This doesn't imply that they are given unconditionally. In the same chapter, Jesus tells how to be one of those given.

This statement is spoken as an absolute truth. So, He is not stating this as an option for people to do or not do. By your response, you are assuming that a person can make themselves into one of those given to Christ, but Jesus said "no one can..." Therefore, the context does not tell a person how to be elected, but only tells us who is.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Doesn't even begin to answer the question. Calvinists insist Grace is irresistible. Does this only apply initially? Calvinist insist that everything happens because of God's decree. That means my sin is God's doing as much as my obedience.
Therefore, in your system, we do not have to obey. God does that for us, or not. We might as well just shrug and say whatever will be will be.

You are confusing Calvinism with hypercalvinism, which is not the same thing. People commit sin as their own doing, and this is why they are culpable. Yes, God has ultimate control of all circumstances, but this does not mean that He causes people to sin. It means that He is so wise as to manipulate circumstances the way He wants, in spite of the fact that people commit sin, and as the Bible says are "under the control of the evil one."

So, irresistable grace is a spiritual truth, and means that God will ultimately conquer those whom He has chosen to receive saving grace. It doesn't mean that grace can't be resisted in the natural realm, as people do it all the time. Don't confuse what happens in the natural realm with what happens in the spiritual, it is often different. Hyper-calvinism makes this same mistake, and it goes to determinism which is a false idea.
TD

 

[StillGods]

Anyone not believing that Jesus and the Spirit are persons of the godhead can come to a different conclusion. So it does indeed show my point. Those who believe in the Trinity automatically read it that way, but the prooftexts don't prove it. The doctrine is taken from the wider context of scripture, and the doctrines of Reformed Theology are also taken from the wider context of scripture.
TD

do you believe in God in Three Persons?
off topic just curious