God, all good and almighty, and evil, for Arminians.

[GoldenKingGaze]

Sorry a computer glitch made a double post. A thread about why evil exists today, before Christ's return. Why Satan exists, and his range of powers and cohorts. Why Jesus died on a cross, to face evil. Why He looked foolish. All this while God is almighty and all good. Also all knowing, knowing the end of the world from the beginning... The wisest ones.

This thread avoids the views of those who believe in predestiny and God choosing some to become evil and be lost.

So why does God seem to step back from stopping evils? Why is Satan so protracted in his reign? Why did Jesus have to die on a cross to defeat evil? Why did He undergo scarring and a bruised heel?

Why are people in Hell for eternity? Why does God lose souls? Why do bad things happen to good people?

Why did Adam fall in the first place?

Why is it that the world evangelism progresses so slowly?

I think God to a large extent loves our free will condition and has made it so interventions, at least on Earth are minimal, unless we ask and don't doubt. He wants a bride not a slave.

I think in creating Lucifer, God much valued the good of free will, and had to create a source of evil, because there was no way to create a near infinite number of free willing creatures without eventual rebellion. And Lucifer was the minimal and completely endable one. God knowing an infinite number of flow charts, of beings good and evil, when he chose to make some for real. So Lucifer, Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and Adam and of course Jesus.

To what extent if any is there a purpose for evil?

 

[solid_core]

Sorry a computer glitch made a double post. A thread about why evil exists today, before Christ's return. Why Satan exists, and his range of powers and cohorts. Why Jesus died on a cross, to face evil. Why He looked foolish. All this while God is almighty and all good. Also all knowing, knowing the end of the world from the beginning... The wisest ones.

This thread avoids the views of those who believe in predestiny and God choosing some to become evil and be lost.

So why does God seem to step back from stopping evils? Why is Satan so protracted in his reign? Why did Jesus have to die on a cross to defeat evil? Why did He undergo scarring and a bruised heel?

Why are people in Hell for eternity? Why does God lose souls? Why do bad things happen to good people?

Why did Adam fall in the first place?

Why is it that the world evangelism progresses so slowly?

I think God to a large extent loves our free will condition and has made it so interventions, at least on Earth are minimal, unless we ask and don't doubt. He wants a bride not a slave.

I think in creating Lucifer, God much valued the good of free will, and had to create a source of evil, because there was no way to create a near infinite number of free willing creatures without eventual rebellion. And Lucifer was the minimal and completely endable one. God knowing an infinite number of flow charts, of beings good and evil, when he chose to make some for real. So Lucifer, Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and Adam and of course Jesus.

To what extent if any is there a purpose for evil?

If you believe in really free will, then you must believe that God does not have full control or does not know the future.

Therefore the question for "why" does not make sense. If everything is randomly "free" wihout being determined, then there is no special purpose in wrong decisions. Its just a "sideffect".

 

[HTacianas]

Sorry a computer glitch made a double post. A thread about why evil exists today, before Christ's return. Why Satan exists, and his range of powers and cohorts. Why Jesus died on a cross, to face evil. Why He looked foolish. All this while God is almighty and all good. Also all knowing, knowing the end of the world from the beginning... The wisest ones.

This thread avoids the views of those who believe in predestiny and God choosing some to become evil and be lost.

So why does God seem to step back from stopping evils? Why is Satan so protracted in his reign? Why did Jesus have to die on a cross to defeat evil? Why did He undergo scarring and a bruised heel?

Why are people in Hell for eternity? Why does God lose souls? Why do bad things happen to good people?

Why did Adam fall in the first place?

Why is it that the world evangelism progresses so slowly?

I think God to a large extent loves our free will condition and has made it so interventions, at least on Earth are minimal, unless we ask and don't doubt. He wants a bride not a slave.

I think in creating Lucifer, God much valued the good of free will, and had to create a source of evil, because there was no way to create a near infinite number of free willing creatures without eventual rebellion. And Lucifer was the minimal and completely endable one. God knowing an infinite number of flow charts, of beings good and evil, when he chose to make some for real. So Lucifer, Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and Adam and of course Jesus.

To what extent if any is there a purpose for evil?

Without evil there would be no good. We wouldn't recognize it.

If we created a scale ranging from -100 to +100 and said that murdering a person was -100 on the scale and feeding a hungry person was +100, with murder being the most evil thing you could imagine, and feeding a hungry person being the most "good" thing you could imagine, without the murder there would be no scale. Nothing to compare good to in order to recognize it.

Now suppose we change things a bit, with murder being -10 on the scale and feeding a hungry person being +10, but the scale remaining the same, there is a whole lot of evil we've never seen and never heard of. Something is preventing it.

 

[solid_core]

Without evil there would be no good. We wouldn't recognize it.

If we created a scale ranging from -100 to +100 and said that murdering a person was -100 on the scale and feeding a hungry person was +100, with murder being the most evil thing you could imagine, and feeding a hungry person being the most "good" thing you could imagine, without the murder there would be no scale. Nothing to compare good to in order to recognize it.

You could compare good action to no action. There is no need for a negative action to measure good.

If you have 2 apples, you have twice more than just 1 apple or more than none apple. You do not need some negative minus apple to measure apples.

 

[HTacianas]

You could compare good action to no action. There is no need for a negative action to measure good.

If you have 2 apples, you have twice more than just 1 apple or more than none apple. You do not need some negative minus apple to measure apples.

Good and evil are both relative and subjective. They indicate morality. Apples and numbers are morally neutral.

 

[solid_core]

Good and evil are both relative and subjective. They indicate morality. Apples and numbers are morally neutral.

But having no food and 2 pieces of food is not morally neutral, is it?

 

[HTacianas]

But having no food and 2 pieces of food is not morally neutral, is it?

There is no moral issue in it. It is neutral. If someone took food away from someone the taking itself would be a moral issue, but simply not having it, or having it, is not.

 

[solid_core]

There is no moral issue in it. It is neutral. If someone took food away from someone the taking itself would be a moral issue, but simply not having it, or having it, is not.

Why do you need "taking the apple from a hungry man" to measure the goodnes of "giving apple to a hungry man", when all you need for measurement of good is just the good itself? The starting point being zero, not minus.

 

[HTacianas]

Why do you need "taking the apple from a hungry man" to measure the goodnes of "giving apple to a hungry man", when all you need for measurement of good is just the good itself? The starting point being zero, not minus.

You're right that zero is the starting point, but what is good or evil needs a standard to be measured by. But if we say that giving a man an apple is good and taking an apple from a hungry man is evil, where does that leave simply ignoring him? It falls somewhere in between.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

If you believe in really free will, then you must believe that God does not have full control or does not know the future.

Therefore the question for "why" does not make sense. If everything is randomly "free" wihout being determined, then there is no special purpose in wrong decisions. Its just a "sideffect".

I'd say God can foresee all free willing thoughts and actions to their completion at the end of times and even much more than that. And that in a way, by foresight, he has control and can interject from outside time into time and space as often as he wants... As with Moses.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Without evil there would be no good. We wouldn't recognize it.

If we created a scale ranging from -100 to +100 and said that murdering a person was -100 on the scale and feeding a hungry person was +100, with murder being the most evil thing you could imagine, and feeding a hungry person being the most "good" thing you could imagine, without the murder there would be no scale. Nothing to compare good to in order to recognize it.

Now suppose we change things a bit, with murder being -10 on the scale and feeding a hungry person being +10, but the scale remaining the same, there is a whole lot of evil we've never seen and never heard of. Something is preventing it.

I can agree that since we have free will, that one at least is bound to invent evil. And it has a use, in that we can know good is appreciable by seeing evil. And we can have joys in Heaven souls never having the experience or choice, do not have.

 

[solid_core]

I'd say God can foresee all free willing thoughts and actions to their completion at the end of times and even much more than that. And that in a way, by foresight, he has control and can interject from outside time into time and space as often as he wants... As with Moses.

So all free actions are certain?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

So all free actions are certain?

God knows them for certain. As with Abraham, he had faith in God and knew God could see His own powers and the future, from Heaven, and became confident in God to do as He promised... and so Abraham was righteous.

For God knows for certain. He does not force free wills but enables them to obey and love and reverence... he controls temptation so that we are not forced to sin, but can find a way out. Peter sleeping while Jesus prayed in Gethsamane missed his way out that time.

 

[solid_core]

God knows them for certain. As with Abraham, he had faith in God and knew God could see His own powers and the future, from Heaven, and became confident in God to do as He promised... and so Abraham was righteous.

For God knows for certain. He does not force free wills but enables them to obey and love and reverence... he controls temptation so that we are not forced to sin, but can find a way out. Peter sleeping while Jesus prayed in Gethsamane missed his way out that time.

If its certain, then its predestined. If its predestined, then how exactly is it free?

 

[renniks]

I can agree that since we have free will, that one at least is bound to invent evil. And it has a use, in that we can know good is appreciable by seeing evil. And we can have joys in Heaven souls never having the experience or choice, do not have.

I don't think evil has a purpose so much as it was inevitable, and God valued those who would choose him so much he was willing to create, even if it means dealing with evil. He created the kind of world with the highest divine and human satisfaction possible. And since he will remake everything in the end, it's worth it.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

If its certain, then its predestined. If its predestined, then how exactly is it free?

It is not determined by God or Satan. They make their offers and sin is easy, but justice is empowered. With our free choice after hearing the Gospel we can choose salvation and receive Christ. Even then, we have a free choice because God wants a bride, not a slave. If we keep making right choices we will be saved, and God saves us. So God knows, but doesn't force the outcome. Such is free will. Foreknowing is not predestiny.

God knew when He created the universe and it was expanding that the Earth would form... and that you would be born on it... As in Acts, it says God chose the time and place of your birth, that you would reach back to Him and be found. Also it says before the foundation of the Earth, God chose you, or knew you, need to check.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I don't think evil has a purpose so much as it was inevitable, and God valued those who would choose him so much he was willing to create, even if it means dealing with evil. He created the kind of world with the highest divine and human satisfaction possible. And since he will remake everything in the end, it's worth it.

And in the end God is wise and finds a purpose for evil. For testing now and for joys in the after life.

 

[solid_core]

It is not determined by God or Satan. They make their offers and sin is easy, but justice is empowered. With our free choice after hearing the Gospel we can choose salvation and receive Christ. Even then, we have a free choice because God wants a bride, not a slave. If we keep making right choices we will be saved, and God saves us. So God knows, but doesn't force the outcome. Such is free will. Foreknowing is not predestiny.

God knew when He created the universe and it was expanding that the Earth would form... and that you would be born on it... As in Acts, it says God chose the time and place of your birth, that you would reach back to Him and be found. Also it says before the foundation of the Earth, God chose you, or knew you, need to check.

Logically - if God knew what will happen, then it had to be certain from the beginning. If it was certain, in what sense was the choice free? Or what do you mean by "free"?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Logically - if God knew what will happen, then it had to be certain from the beginning. If it was certain, in what sense was the choice free? Or what do you mean by "free"?

God sees each heart, like yours and Satan's. He sees things happen that He very much despises. People being injured, and the plans of Satan. He perhaps saw an alternative to the angel that would fall, Lucifer, who would be even more powerful and take with him half the holy angels into rebellion. That instead of one third... Free will allows for rebellion, disobedience. God saw and chose. He does not predetermine rebellion, and offers salvation, not will overriding power.

 

[solid_core]

God sees each heart, like yours and Satan's. He sees things happen that He very much despises. People being injured, and the plans of Satan. He perhaps saw an alternative to the angel that would fall, Lucifer, who would be even more powerful and take with him half the holy angels into rebellion. That instead of one third... Free will allows for rebellion, disobedience. God saw and chose. He does not predetermine rebellion, and offers salvation, not will overriding power.

I am not sure if you understand my question. My question is not about "who is responsible, what is moral, better, worse" and similar.

My question is purely logical, philosophical - if our actions are certain, how are they free?