God’s Wrath Poured Out on Jesus on the Cross

[bling]

Why did Jesus tell his apostles that unless they forgive others who do them wrong, they won’t be forgiven their own sins in the future then?

Because that is the truth.

Let’s work backwards here:

1. Why would you not be forgiving others?

2. Why do you lack the Godly type Love to forgive others?

3. Jesus has taught us: He that is forgiven much will Love much, so if you have been forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt then you automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love), so if you do not have this Love is it because you do not realize how huge of a debt you have been forgiven?

4. It all starts with God forgiving you, but you also have to accept that forgiveness as pure undeserved charity. The problem is not with God forgiving you, but with your accepting that forgiveness as pure charity. If you do not accept, you do not have the Love and without the Love you cannot forgive like God, and if you do not forgive, they are not being forgiven.

5. It is not that we “forgive” to be forgiven, we forgive because we have been forgiven and will continue to be forgiven. If we stop forgiving others it is the sign we quit accepting God’s forgiveness as pure charity, so the transaction of our forgiveness is not taking place.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Because you don’t understand the difference between intending to stir up lust and attraction sprinting up unbidden.

Jesus said:

“But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).​

Listen carefully to the words of Jesus above. It says whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has commited adultery already in his heart. It does not say sexual fantasies (Although I am sure can include that). Lust is simply desire. To look at a woman with desire (of even their body or body parts in some way) is to commit adultery with that person in one's heart. Jesus says that a person can be cast into hellfire for this kind of sin. For the desire of a person's body part in a lustful way is with the ultimate intent of sex behind it (even if no sexual thoughts have not emerged yet).

Coveting is a sin, right? But what is coveting?
Coveting is desiring something that is not your own.
Would that not include desiring or coveting the body part of another that is not your spouse? I would say... “yes.”

Romans 7:8 (BSB) says, “But sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire.”

But even if this was not the case, many Christian men do struggle with having sexual fantasies and they are in danger of hellfire unless they repent of such a sin. It may be a difficult task for many Christian men to do this but with God all things are possible. They have to keep trusting in the Lord and employ those methods that God has given to them to overcome. Sadly, most today do not feel like they have to overcome because they believe they are saved by having a belief alone in Jesus, and it is in nothing that they do. Many Christians today read Jesus' words in Matthew 5:28-30 as being a metaphor or they say his words in this passage only applied in the Old Covenant before the cross. In other words, people will do whatever it takes to re-write the words of Jesus because they do not line up with a belief they want to be true.

Before, you appeared to imply that one sin cannot keep a believer out of God's kingdom. But I believe one sin can make it possible for a believer to not inherit the kingdom of God. Paul says be not deceived, the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. Then Paul lists the kind of people who will not make it; Like: fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners (See: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I did read yours and I addressed it in my post if you would only prayerfully read. Not addressing it does not make it go away. God bless

To inform our other readers as to why I did not reply; It is written:

“But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.” (Titus 3:9).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

To inform our other readers as to why I did not reply; It is written:

“But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.” (Titus 3:9).

So that only applies to God's 4th commandment and not the others? God's covenant (the Ten) can not be broken according to scripture Luke 16:17,
Psalm 89:34, Psalm 111:7,8 now written in our hearts in the New Covenant. It is our moral obligation to obey all of His laws. You preach on keeping the commandment, but keep forgetting the 4th is part of God's commandments that He asked us to Remember and is an eternal covenant, which is why the Sabbath day will always be God's chosen Holy day and continues forever Isaiah 66:23.

 

[Freth]

There's a saying, that "possession is 9/10ths of the law." I agree. It is the holding on to the possessions of this world that causes us to only keep 9/10ths of the law of God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So that only applies to God's 4th commandment and not the others? God's covenant (the Ten) can not be broken according to scripture Luke 16:17,

Obviously the laws on animal sacrifices and the priesthood have been fulfilled and they are no longer applicable. So if this is the case, then did the “Old Law” fail in Luke 16:17 seeing the “Old Law” on animal sacrifices and the priesthood has ended? Surely not. It was fulfilled (Matthew 5:18). Besides, you need to read the context that says: “The law and the prophets were until John:” (Luke 16:16).

But again, I am not expecting you to get it, and Titus 3:9 tells me to avoid strivings (quarrels) about the Law. So I am not going to endlessly debate this issue with you. Only God can reveal such a truth to you if you are open to it.

Side Note:

For our other readers here, I believe Christians are to obey the commands that come from Jesus and His followers, and they are not to seek to be justified by the Law of Moses (i.e. the 613 Laws).

“And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 13:39).​

For things like the Saturday Sabbath, circumicsion, and dietary laws have ended in the New Covenant (See: Colossians 2:14-17).

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I think you are confusing women with men. Men generally fall into instant lust mode (in wanting to have intimacy or to look at a woman's body (or body parts) in a lustful or desirable way) if they allow themselves to look at a beautiful woman in a lustful way within a matter of a second, and it takes time for women to stir up to be fully lustful (to want to have intimacy or sex) towards a guy. So let me get this straight, you think that a woman being stirred up to have lust towards a guy's body (not sexual fantasies yet) (as long as it was something they did not originally desire or intend) is okay vs. having sexual fantasies? Meaning, are you saying that lusting after body parts is okay if it was non-intentional (Meaning, a handsome guy just appeared out of nowhere within the grocery store in front of Martha within her view with big muscles and she could not help but to desire his body lustfully)? I do believe the admiration of a body part (or the whole body) in a lustful or desirable way is just as bad as sexual fantasies. Why? Because one is desiring to have something that is not in their own possession. The initial desire of body parts in a lustful way is with the same intent as a sexual fantasy. One has to completely not look at a person in lust in any way in order to not have adultery in their heart towards that person. For the desire of a body part is with the lead up towards intimacy or sex. It's wrong to desire a another person's body (body parts) lustfully if they are not the body of your spouse (even if it is not sexual fantasies yet). Paul says in order to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife.

Jesus said:

“But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).​

Listen carefully to the words of Jesus above. It says whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has commited adultery already in his heart. It does not say sexual fantasies (Although I am sure can include that). Lust is simply desire. To look at a woman with desire (of even their body or body parts in some way) is to commit adultery with that person in one's heart. Jesus says that a person can be cast into hellfire for this kind of sin. For the desire of a person's body part in a lustful way is with the ultimate intent of sex behind it (even if no sexual thoughts have not emerged yet).

Coveting is a sin, right? But what is coveting?
Coveting is desiring something that is not your own.
Would that not include desiring or coveting the body part of another that is not your spouse? I would say... “yes.”

Romans 7:8 (BSB) says, “But sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire.”

But even if this was not the case, many Christian men do struggle with having sexual fantasies and they are in danger of hellfire unless they repent of such a sin. It may be a difficult task for many Christian men to do this but with God all things are possible. They have to keep trusting in the Lord and employ those methods that God has given to them to overcome. Sadly, most today do not feel like they have to overcome because they believe they are saved by having a belief alone in Jesus, and it is in nothing that they do. Many Christians today read Jesus' words in Matthew 5:28-30 as being a metaphor or they say his words in this passage only applied in the Old Covenant before the cross. In other words, people will do whatever it takes to re-write the words of Jesus because they do not line up with a belief they want to be true.

Before, you appeared to imply that one sin cannot keep a believer out of God's kingdom. But I believe one sin can make it possible for a believer to not inherit the kingdom of God. Paul says be not deceived, the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. Then Paul lists the kind of people who will not make it; Like: fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners (See: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

I am going by what Jesus says and that expresses a difference between intending to stir up wrong desires and them coming unbidden.

Now I could not read your post as a short beginning doing so and your freely delving into the details of sin began to dirty the mind so I skipped. There is a desire to discuss sin the detail in some that is merely an excuse to stir up wrong desire and I won’t go there.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Because that is the truth.

Let’s work backwards here:

1. Why would you not be forgiving others?

2. Why do you lack the Godly type Love to forgive others?

3. Jesus has taught us: He that is forgiven much will Love much, so if you have been forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt then you automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love), so if you do not have this Love is it because you do not realize how huge of a debt you have been forgiven?

4. It all starts with God forgiving you, but you also have to accept that forgiveness as pure undeserved charity. The problem is not with God forgiving you, but with your accepting that forgiveness as pure charity. If you do not accept, you do not have the Love and without the Love you cannot forgive like God, and if you do not forgive, they are not being forgiven.

5. It is not that we “forgive” to be forgiven, we forgive because we have been forgiven and will continue to be forgiven. If we stop forgiving others it is the sign we quit accepting God’s forgiveness as pure charity, so the transaction of our forgiveness is not taking place.

I ask again the question you refused to answer. If you find yourself not forgiving others do you tell yourself that at that point your own sins are NO LONGER FORGIVEN and you’re in danger of going to hell?

If you think forgiving others, which happens seldom on this site, is a sign one isn’t forgiven, then one’s sins are still counted against one, right? So without forgiveness of sins one will be condemned right?

Or is the requirement made null and void and it doesn’t matter whether one obeys Jesus on forgiving others or not?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am going by what Jesus says and that expresses a difference between intending to stir up wrong desires and them coming unbidden.

This statement is very mysterious and I am not sure exactly what you mean.
Are you saying desires of the body or body parts is not condemning as long as it is not a fantasy of intimacy?

Now I could not read your post as a short beginning doing so and your freely delving into the details of sin began to dirty the mind so I skipped. There is a desire to discuss sin the detail in some that is merely an excuse to stir up wrong desire and I won’t go there.

My apologies. I was not aware that talking about this issue in detail would be difficult for you. I edited my post to remove the first paragraph. You can go back and look at the rest of my post to address this issue.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

This statement is very mysterious and I am not sure exactly what you mean.
Are you saying desires of the body or body parts is not condemning as long as it is not a fantasy of intimacy?



My apologies. I was not aware that talking about this issue in detail would be difficult for you. I edited my post to remove the first paragraph. You can go back and look at the rest of my post to address this issue.

Your desire to discuss lust in detail dirties the mind of anyone who knows the fear of the Lord. It’s not just my personal standard. Move on. You do not see the difference between intent and random occurrence and delving into the details of lust is inappropriate.

 

[bling]

I ask again the question you refused to answer. If you find yourself not forgiving others do you tell yourself that at that point your own sins are NO LONGER FORGIVEN and you’re in danger of going to hell?

If you think forgiving others, which happens seldom on this site, is a sign one isn’t forgiven, then one’s sins are still counted against one, right? So without forgiveness of sins one will be condemned right?

Or is the requirement made null and void and it doesn’t matter whether one obeys Jesus on forgiving others or not?

If a person calling themselves “Christian” is not forgiving others, they are either severely quenching the indwelling Spirit or they do not have the Spirit. If they are quenching the Spirit they need to repent, come to their senses, accept help and forgiveness of this sin.

I am not going to jump on a “Christian” and tell them they are hell bound, because they have not repented, because unfortunately I have a blank in my own eye, but I might ask if we could help each other with our sin problem.

If I am not forgiving others, it is a clear sign of a much bigger sin problem of “I am not Loving others” and I am being selfish. I need to remember how much I have been forgiven of.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your desire to discuss lust in detail dirties the mind of anyone who knows the fear of the Lord. It’s not just my personal standard. Move on. You do not see the difference between intent and random occurrence and delving into the details of lust is inappropriate.

The Bible talks about such sins, no? If it doesn't then how do you know if it is a sin or not? If we cannot discuss what is sin and what is not sin, then how do you convey this truth to others? I still have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If a person calling themselves “Christian” is not forgiving others, they are either severely quenching the indwelling Spirit or they do not have the Spirit. If they are quenching the Spirit they need to repent, come to their senses, accept help and forgiveness of this sin.

I am not going to jump on a “Christian” and tell them they are hell bound, because they have not repented, because unfortunately I have a blank in my own eye, but I might ask if we could help each other with our sin problem.

If I am not forgiving others, it is a clear sign of a much bigger sin problem of “I am not Loving others” and I am being selfish. I need to remember how much I have been forgiven of.

So salvation is conditional? I did not get that impression that you believe that salvation was conditional by what you said so far.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your desire to discuss lust in detail dirties the mind of anyone who knows the fear of the Lord. It’s not just my personal standard. Move on. You do not see the difference between intent and random occurrence and delving into the details of lust is inappropriate.

We can talk about another sin that Jesus condemned. You appeared to be against the idea that salvation cannot go from a state of being lost, saved, lost, saved, lost, saved, etc.; But my point is that one mortal sin can cause a Christian to die spiritually unless they repent or confess of such a sin to the Lord Jesus Christ with the intention of seeking to overcome it in this life. For example: Jesus also said that if we do not help the poor (i.e. love our nieghbor) we will either not inherit eternal life or we will be cast into everlasting punishment (See: Luke 10:25-37, and Matthew 25:31-46). The apostle John appears to teach the same thing. John says, “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10). So are you saying that a Christian cannot drop the ball at some point in their life, and refuse to help the poor? Are you saying that a Christian cannot accidentally lie? If they do lie, how do you not see that as being condemned? For Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the lake of fire. A Christian who thinks that the sin of lying is not that big of a deal can just keep on doing it on occasion. What if a Christian struggled with a sin that the Bible condemns?

It comes down to 1 John 1:9. It says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Can a Christian refuse to confess of a serious sin and still be forgiven? If we are being forgiven of the sin that we are confessing, is that not dealing with salvation? Meaning, is not forgiveness tied to salvation? For if all future sins are forgiven us by having a belief alone in Jesus, then what purpose does 1 John 1:9 serve?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your desire to discuss lust in detail dirties the mind of anyone who knows the fear of the Lord. It’s not just my personal standard. Move on. You do not see the difference between intent and random occurrence and delving into the details of lust is inappropriate.

So lusting after another person's body parts is okay as long as we did not plan on doing so? If so, I am not buying that. Jesus said to look upon a woman in lust. This could include untinentionally looking upon another's body or body parts with wrongful desire (because the intent behind it is sexual). People may not intend to lie, but that still does not make lying any less of a sin (whether it was intentional or not).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Absolutely. For those who keep
his teaching, the Father will love and they will make their abode in that one. The question hangs on whether they see one as keeping his teaching or not, not whether we think we do.

I agree.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You often “Gish” out pages of scriptures as though that is your position. I try to tell you that Jesus said that INTENTION to look at a woman in order to lust is not the same as looking at a woman even if lust arises unbidden and you still don’t see the difference. Ergo you post scripture thinking your position is exactly the same but are not open to learning where it is not. It makes discussion difficult.
I did. Do you claim those verses personally describe you? Are there areas that they do not?

So if a person did not intend to lie, and they lied unintentionally, it is no longer the sin of lying?

 

[bling]

So salvation is conditional? I did not get that impression that you believe that salvation was conditional by what you said so far.

I never suggested anything different? Sinners have to humbly accept God's charity as charity.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So lusting after another person's body parts is okay as long as we did not plan on doing so? If so, I am not buying that. Jesus said to look upon a woman in lust. This could include untinentionally looking upon another's body or body parts with wrongful desire (because the intent behind it is sexual). People may not intend to lie, but that still does not make lying any less of a sin (whether it was intentional or not).

I am neither reading nor discussing this. Move on

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So if a person did not intend to lie, and they lied unintentionally, it is no longer the sin of lying?

That is not the same. What a man speaks has a different responsibility than thoughts.