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We need to stop sinning after we have been forgiven of sins to show our gratitude.Ever increasing forgiveness for ever increasing sin
Gen 5:23
“Adah and Zillah, hear my voice,
you wives of Lamech, and listen to my speech.
For I have killed a man for wounding me,
a young man who hurt me.
24 If Cain will be avenged sevenfold,
then truly Lamech seventy-sevenfold.”
That is not the one and only thing, but to your comment, the reason he did not forgive others is because he did not have a huge Love (Luke 7) and thus did not have a huge gratitude and that is because he did not humbly accept the Master's (God's) forgiveness.Concerning “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”: What one infers is not necessarily the implication meant. Of course it is specific. So are all the parables. In this one, we learn that God will extract exact payment from the sinner who does not forgive others their trespasses against him.
Clare your saying: "Forgive us our debts as we forgive the debts of others to us.""Forgive us our debts as we forgive the debts of others to us."
Again, the questions are about the debt of the first servant owed to God: Is God saying one thing, then saying the opposite thing making the first a lie?I was referring to the debt owed to the master, not the debt owed to the servant by another servant.
Clare your saying: "Forgive us our debts as we forgive the debts of others to us."
Does not address the question I asked: “Are you saying God can take His forgiveness back?”
In the parable and I would say in our lives, God forgives (Loves) first, but later we see the debt was and can be still owed. That could easily happen if we are using the wrong definition of unconditional forgiveness, which is my conclusion, but what are you saying?
I was responding to the forgiveness by faith at salvation, not in our daily lives.Again, the questions are about the debt of the first servant owed to God: Is God saying one thing, then saying the opposite thing making the first a lie?
Is Biblical forgiving conditional?
You are saying by faith, so what "faith" is talked about in the parable?
you seem to be saying unconditional forgiving does not exist?
"Gratitude" for our salvation is not the purpose of the Christian life.We need to stop sinning after we have been forgiven of sins to show our gratitude.
Chapter and verse please.Christ forgave sinners while here on earth without us first seeing repentance.
If we humbly accept pure undeserved forgiveness as pure charity, are we saved?I was responding to the forgiveness by faith at salvation, not in our daily lives.
First off: God does not: “Pay off our sin debt”, but forgives us of our sins, which is not the same thing.Chp 18 looks to be teachings on the kingdom, regarding giving and receiving offenses, stumbling others, recovering the stumbled and strays, mercy, forgiveness, etc.
I do not see the parable as about God's forgiveness (payment of our sin debt) at salvation, which is never revoked, but as about God's mercies and graces in the kingdom, where if you take them for granted and abuse them, you will lose them.
You are right to say our Love for God is much more than just a gratitude type of Love, but I was trying to get across the idea of God Loving us first and our Godly type Love only coming afterward, as the result of God first Loving us (found in forgiveness) Luke 7."Gratitude" for our salvation is not the purpose of the Christian life.
It's purpose is to know, love and serve God, to grow in relationship with him and in likeness of his Son.
Luke 5:20 When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”Chapter and verse please.
In every case Jesus saw they had faith to be healed/forgiven.
Grace is that regardless of our own merits, that even though what we do isn't much, that through Christ we are given a "pearl beyond price" which we could necer earn or merit in our own.Well, you, at least, see what the parable was for, though I don't know that you don't draw implications from what it does teach, implications such as the notion that our forgiveness of others is the cause by which God forgives us: It doesn't say that.
Then you don't know Scripture.If we humbly accept pure undeserved forgiveness as pure charity, are we saved?
First off: God does not: “Pay off our sin debt”, but forgives us of our sins, which is not the same thing.
No, I'm referring to the various mercies and graces given to those in the kingdom (and some who may not even be "of" the kingdom, but tares instead), who will lose those daily mercies and graces of the kingdom if they abuse them.Since you think this is about “in the Kingdom” and God’s mercy and grace to those in the Kingdom, are you saying we can loss our salvation “take them for granted and abuse them, you will lose them.”?
It's a parable. . .spoken in terms which represent something else, including the mercy of God's forgiveness of our daily sins.How can you say the parable is not “about God’s forgiving”: Matt. 18: 27 “Then the master…forgave him the debt”…
He was referring to the legal consequence at the time for not paying one's debts, it was34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
The parable is definitely about an unbelievable huge debt (very much like our sin debt) and the torture until the debt is paid in full
(which is not possible) very much sound like hell, and Heavenly Father has to be God and says “this is the way He will treat you”, which means our going to Hell and not heaven, so that sounds like the final judgement.
You are right to say our Love for God is much more than just a gratitude type of Love, but I was trying to get across the idea of God Loving us first and our Godly type Love only coming afterward, as the result of God first Loving us (found in forgiveness) Luke 7.
The point is: We are not Loving God, because of what we can get out of Loving God (since we have it all already, with the exception of only having a birthright to heaven right now), nor is it a robotic type Love.
Our doing good stuff to please God is because of His Love for us and in that way, it is like being out of gratitude.
Quenching comes from abuse of his daily graces.Where does our allowing or quenching God to work in us and through result from?
Where do you find in scripture “paying the debt=forgiving the debt” and where do you find that in accounting terms meaning the same thing? I took accounting in graduate school.Then you don't know Scripture.
"Forgive" as used in Scripture is an accounting term, meaning "to cancel a debt," because of payment or otherwise.
Where does it talk about Jesus making a payment to God?God cancelled my sin debt to him which Jesus paid to him on the cross.
That is saying God’s mercy and grace is contingent, while God provides mercy and grace unconditionally. Can you show from scripture taking mercy and grace away from even “tares in the Kingdom”?No, I'm referring to the various mercies and graces given to those in the kingdom (and some who may not even be "of" the kingdom, but tares instead), who will lose those daily mercies and graces of the kingdom if they abuse them.
It's a parable. . .spoken in terms which represent something else, including the mercy of God's forgiveness of our daily sins.
“Debtor’s prison” was a way the lender could force all the debtor’s friends and family to give as much money as they could to hopefully satisfy the lender and it was up to the lender to give the OK to let the debtor go, even if he was not paid in full, the lender would reason that was as much as he was going to get, so why leave him there. This story makes it very clear the lender is not going to ever let the debtor go, since this impossible huge loan would have to be paid in full.He was referring to the legal consequence at the time for not paying one's debts, it was
called Debtors' Prison.
Is that what I said?Where do you find in scripture “paying the debt=forgiving the debt” and where do you find that in accounting terms meaning the same thing? I took accounting in graduate school.
That's what "forgive" means--"debt cancelled". . .it "talks" about it by using the word "forgive."If the debt is forgiven there is nothing to pay.
Where does it talk about Jesus making a payment to God?
I just did in the parable.That is saying God’s mercy and grace is contingent, while God provides mercy and grace unconditionally. Can you show from scripture taking mercy and grace away from even “tares in the Kingdom”?
The parable is about the kingdom (Matthew 18:23), not about salvation and judgment.The parable is not referring to “including the mercy of God's forgiveness of our daily sins.” We have one huge debt being addressed with a definite reference to a single judgement and hell, that is not daily sins and being disciplined.
I will quote your favorite question back to you:“Debtor’s prison” was a way the lender could force all the debtor’s friends and family to give as much money as they could to hopefully satisfy the lender and it was up to the lender to give the OK to let the debtor go, even if he was not paid in full, the lender would reason that was as much as he was going to get, so why leave him there. This story makes it very clear the lender is not going to ever let the debtor go, since this impossible huge loan would have to be paid in full.
The problem is, what you saying is this: Jesus pays your sin debt to God and God forgives your debt.Is that what I said?
Read it again.
Jesus paying my sin debt to God -> God cancelling my sin debt to him = God forgiving my sin.
Again! Paying a debt is not the same as forgiving a debt so: Where does it talk about Jesus making a payment to God?Is that what I said?
That's what "forgive" means--"debt cancelled". . .it "talks" about it by using the word "forgive."
Again, who is the undeserving criminal kidnapper (the person who hopefully will accept the payment) receiving this ransom payment?Is that what I said?
See Matthew 20:28 for payment; i.e., buying back (from God's condemnation)
Is that what I said?
I just did in the parable.
Also see Matthew 13:30 - ". . .collect the tares and tie them in bundles to be burned."
The parable is about the kingdom (Matthew 18:23), not about salvation and judgment.
You gave your unbiblical description of “Debtor Prison” and I gave you mine from books I have read, the parable said: “In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.” And we know it would be impossible for someone starting with nothing to pay such a huge debt back so he will be tortured forever.Is that what I said?
I will quote your favorite question back to you:
Where do you find, can you show that in Scripture?
Change comes with the unbelievable huge result (the lame person walked), what change (turning from bad to good happened before the forgiveness.Jesus saw the faith of those who brought the paralytic, faith to believe is complex, they came humbly yet determined, they were sacrificial in their care of there friend.
I see no reason why they and the paralysed man were not also repentant.
They knew they had to repent before coming to worship in the temple,so it is reasonable to assume they were repentant in coming to Jesu
Jesus's prayer on the cross. He did not forgive them.
He prayed Father forgive them.
You said: “You need to believe in Jesus for God's forgiveness.” Believing (trusting) in Jesus/God is not the same as repenting (changing your ways from bad to good).Forgiveness has a prerequisite condition which is repentance. A widow has 10 children, a murderer killed one of them then looks for her forgiveness by saying that he will continue to kill the rest of her children. Under that circumstance does forgiveness stand. It's no. Only when the murderer stopped killing her children as the prerequisite, only then one can talk about forgiveness.
Similarly, God's forgiveness is not unconditionally applied to all. You are told to repent all the time as it is a prerequisite. However, what can you expect from humans? Today even when they repent, tomorrow they commit sins as a sinner. With the New Covenant, God's Grace to humans is through Jesus Christ. That's where the prerequisite is rooted (i.e., besides your repeatable repentance). You need to believe in Jesus for God's forgiveness. That's how Jesus is the mediator between God and us sinners.
Now it boils down to what "believe in Jesus" could mean in terms of the New Covenant. A lot, in accordance to the various situations. Even Jesus said so,
Revelation 3:5
If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes, and I will not blot your name out of the book of life; I will confess your name before my Father and before his angels.
and,
Matthew 7:21 (NIV2011)
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
So the advice is, don't take for granted that God's forgiveness is unconditional by neglecting all the biblical warnings. Moreover, warnings are not made out of hatred. In the very contrary, true love is not without warnings.
That is precisely what the NT reveals.The problem is,
what you saying is this: Jesus pays your sin debt to God and God forgives your debt.
One more time.If Jesus paid my debt there is no debt for God to forgive since Jesus paid it.
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