God’s Definition of Forgiveness

[bling]

Ever increasing forgiveness for ever increasing sin


Gen 5:23


“Adah and Zillah, hear my voice,
you wives of Lamech, and listen to my speech.
For I have killed a man for wounding me,
a young man who hurt me.
24 If Cain will be avenged sevenfold,

then truly Lamech seventy-sevenfold.”​

We need to stop sinning after we have been forgiven of sins to show our gratitude.

 

[bling]

Concerning “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”: What one infers is not necessarily the implication meant. Of course it is specific. So are all the parables. In this one, we learn that God will extract exact payment from the sinner who does not forgive others their trespasses against him.

That is not the one and only thing, but to your comment, the reason he did not forgive others is because he did not have a huge Love (Luke 7) and thus did not have a huge gratitude and that is because he did not humbly accept the Master's (God's) forgiveness.

 

[bling]

"Forgive us our debts as we forgive the debts of others to us."

Clare your saying: "Forgive us our debts as we forgive the debts of others to us."

Does not address the question I asked: “Are you saying God can take His forgiveness back?”

In the parable and I would say in our lives, God forgives (Loves) first, but later we see the debt was and can be still owed. That could easily happen if we are using the wrong definition of unconditional forgiveness, which is my conclusion, but what are you saying?

I was referring to the debt owed to the master, not the debt owed to the servant by another servant.

Again, the questions are about the debt of the first servant owed to God: Is God saying one thing, then saying the opposite thing making the first a lie?

Is Biblical forgiving conditional?

You are saying by faith, so what "faith" is talked about in the parable?

you seem to be saying unconditional forgiving does not exist?

 

[Clare73]

Clare your saying: "Forgive us our debts as we forgive the debts of others to us."
Does not address the question I asked: “Are you saying God can take His forgiveness back?”
In the parable and I would say in our lives, God forgives (Loves) first, but later we see the debt was and can be still owed. That could easily happen if we are using the wrong definition of unconditional forgiveness, which is my conclusion, but what are you saying?

Again, the questions are about the debt of the first servant owed to God: Is God saying one thing, then saying the opposite thing making the first a lie?
Is Biblical forgiving conditional?
You are saying by faith, so what "faith" is talked about in the parable?
you seem to be saying unconditional forgiving does not exist?

I was responding to the forgiveness by faith at salvation, not in our daily lives.

Chp 18 looks to be teachings on the kingdom, regarding giving and receiving offenses, stumbling others, recovering the stumbled and strays, mercy, forgiveness, etc.
I do not see the parable as about God's forgiveness (payment of our sin debt) at salvation, which is never revoked, but as about God's mercies and graces in the kingdom, where if you take them for granted and abuse them, you will lose them.

 

[Clare73]

We need to stop sinning after we have been forgiven of sins to show our gratitude.

"Gratitude" for our salvation is not the purpose of the Christian life.

It's purpose is to know, love and serve God, to grow in relationship with him and in likeness of his Son.

 

[Tolworth John]

Christ forgave sinners while here on earth without us first seeing repentance.

Chapter and verse please.
In every case Jesus saw they had faith to be healed/forgiven.

 

[bling]

I was responding to the forgiveness by faith at salvation, not in our daily lives.

If we humbly accept pure undeserved forgiveness as pure charity, are we saved?

Chp 18 looks to be teachings on the kingdom, regarding giving and receiving offenses, stumbling others, recovering the stumbled and strays, mercy, forgiveness, etc.
I do not see the parable as about God's forgiveness (payment of our sin debt) at salvation, which is never revoked, but as about God's mercies and graces in the kingdom, where if you take them for granted and abuse them, you will lose them.

First off: God does not: “Pay off our sin debt”, but forgives us of our sins, which is not the same thing.

Since you think this is about “in the Kingdom” and God’s mercy and grace to those in the Kingdom, are you saying we can loss our salvation “take them for granted and abuse them, you will lose them.”?

How can you say the parable is not “about God’s forgiving”: Matt. 18: 27 “Then the master…forgave him the debt”…34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

The parable is definitely about an unbelievable huge debt (very much like our sin debt) and the torture until the debt is paid in full (which is not possible) very much sound like hell, and Heavenly Father has to be God and says “this is the way He will treat you”, which means our going to Hell and not heaven, so that sounds like the final judgement.

 

[bling]

"Gratitude" for our salvation is not the purpose of the Christian life.

It's purpose is to know, love and serve God, to grow in relationship with him and in likeness of his Son.

You are right to say our Love for God is much more than just a gratitude type of Love, but I was trying to get across the idea of God Loving us first and our Godly type Love only coming afterward, as the result of God first Loving us (found in forgiveness) Luke 7.

The point is: We are not Loving God, because of what we can get out of Loving God (since we have it all already, with the exception of only having a birthright to heaven right now), nor is it a robotic type Love.

Our doing good stuff to please God is because of His Love for us and in that way, it is like being out of gratitude.

Where does our allowing or quenching God to work in us and through result from?

 

[bling]

Chapter and verse please.
In every case Jesus saw they had faith to be healed/forgiven.

Luke 5:20 When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”

Jesus did not say, when He saw the faith of the man being forgiven.

Is “Faith” the same as repentance?

Is repentance changing from doing bad to doing good, so can you do anything of value without first having Godly type Love (1 Cor. 13:1-4)?

We know God Loves us first and forgiveness is a Loving act, so God is not only Love, but also a perfect Forgiver.

Luke 23:34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

Did God forgive those who were involved in Christ’s crucifixion since Jesus asked God to, all those who did not know what they were doing? Had they repented?

 

[Halbhh]

Well, you, at least, see what the parable was for, though I don't know that you don't draw implications from what it does teach, implications such as the notion that our forgiveness of others is the cause by which God forgives us: It doesn't say that.

Grace is that regardless of our own merits, that even though what we do isn't much, that through Christ we are given a "pearl beyond price" which we could necer earn or merit in our own.

But even with faith and Grace, we will not be forgiven if we don't forgive others.

Glory to God for His mercy and grace!

 

[Clare73]

If we humbly accept pure undeserved forgiveness as pure charity, are we saved?

First off: God does not: “Pay off our sin debt”, but forgives us of our sins, which is not the same thing.

Then you don't know Scripture.

"Forgive" as used in Scripture is an accounting term, meaning "to cancel a debt," because of payment or otherwise.
God cancelled my sin debt to him which Jesus paid to him on the cross.

Since you think this is about “in the Kingdom” and God’s mercy and grace to those in the Kingdom, are you saying we can loss our salvation “take them for granted and abuse them, you will lose them.”?

No, I'm referring to the various mercies and graces given to those in the kingdom (and some who may not even be "of" the kingdom, but tares instead), who will lose those daily mercies and graces of the kingdom if they abuse them.

How can you say the parable is not “about God’s forgiving”: Matt. 18: 27 “Then the master…forgave him the debt”…

It's a parable. . .spoken in terms which represent something else, including the mercy of God's forgiveness of our daily sins.

34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
The parable is definitely about an unbelievable huge debt (very much like our sin debt) and the torture until the debt is paid in full

He was referring to the legal consequence at the time for not paying one's debts, it was
called Debtors' Prison.

(which is not possible) very much sound like hell, and Heavenly Father has to be God and says “this is the way He will treat you”, which means our going to Hell and not heaven, so that sounds like the final judgement.

 

[Clare73]

You are right to say our Love for God is much more than just a gratitude type of Love, but I was trying to get across the idea of God Loving us first and our Godly type Love only coming afterward, as the result of God first Loving us (found in forgiveness) Luke 7.
The point is: We are not Loving God, because of what we can get out of Loving God (since we have it all already, with the exception of only having a birthright to heaven right now), nor is it a robotic type Love.
Our doing good stuff to please God is because of His Love for us and in that way, it is like being out of gratitude.

Where does our allowing or quenching God to work in us and through result from?

Quenching comes from abuse of his daily graces.

 

[bling]

Then you don't know Scripture.

"Forgive" as used in Scripture is an accounting term, meaning "to cancel a debt," because of payment or otherwise.

Where do you find in scripture “paying the debt=forgiving the debt” and where do you find that in accounting terms meaning the same thing? I took accounting in graduate school.

If the debt is forgiven there is nothing to pay.

God cancelled my sin debt to him which Jesus paid to him on the cross.

Where does it talk about Jesus making a payment to God?

No, I'm referring to the various mercies and graces given to those in the kingdom (and some who may not even be "of" the kingdom, but tares instead), who will lose those daily mercies and graces of the kingdom if they abuse them.

It's a parable. . .spoken in terms which represent something else, including the mercy of God's forgiveness of our daily sins.

That is saying God’s mercy and grace is contingent, while God provides mercy and grace unconditionally. Can you show from scripture taking mercy and grace away from even “tares in the Kingdom”?
The parable is not referring to “including the mercy of God's forgiveness of our daily sins.” We have one huge debt being addressed with a definite reference to a single judgement and hell, that is not daily sins and being disciplined.

He was referring to the legal consequence at the time for not paying one's debts, it was
called Debtors' Prison.

“Debtor’s prison” was a way the lender could force all the debtor’s friends and family to give as much money as they could to hopefully satisfy the lender and it was up to the lender to give the OK to let the debtor go, even if he was not paid in full, the lender would reason that was as much as he was going to get, so why leave him there. This story makes it very clear the lender is not going to ever let the debtor go, since this impossible huge loan would have to be paid in full.

 

[Clare73]

Where do you find in scripture “paying the debt=forgiving the debt” and where do you find that in accounting terms meaning the same thing? I took accounting in graduate school.

Is that what I said?
Read it again.

Jesus paying my sin debt to God -> God cancelling my sin debt to him = God forgiving my sin.

If the debt is forgiven there is nothing to pay.

Where does it talk about Jesus making a payment to God?

That's what "forgive" means--"debt cancelled". . .it "talks" about it by using the word "forgive."

See Matthew 20:28 for payment; i.e., buying back (from God's condemnation)

That is saying God’s mercy and grace is contingent, while God provides mercy and grace unconditionally. Can you show from scripture taking mercy and grace away from even “tares in the Kingdom”?

I just did in the parable.

Also see Matthew 13:30 - ". . .collect the tares and tie them in bundles to be burned."

The parable is not referring to “including the mercy of God's forgiveness of our daily sins.” We have one huge debt being addressed with a definite reference to a single judgement and hell, that is not daily sins and being disciplined.

The parable is about the kingdom (Matthew 18:23), not about salvation and judgment.

“Debtor’s prison” was a way the lender could force all the debtor’s friends and family to give as much money as they could to hopefully satisfy the lender and it was up to the lender to give the OK to let the debtor go, even if he was not paid in full, the lender would reason that was as much as he was going to get, so why leave him there. This story makes it very clear the lender is not going to ever let the debtor go, since this impossible huge loan would have to be paid in full.

I will quote your favorite question back to you:

Where do you find, can you show that in Scripture?

 

[Tolworth John]

Jesus saw the faith of those who brought the paralytic, faith to believe is complex, they came humbly yet determined, they were sacrificial in their care of there friend.
I see no reason why they and the paralysed man were not also repentant.
They knew they had to repent before coming to worship in the temple,so it is reasonable to assume they were repentant in coming to Jesu

Jesus's prayer on the cross. He did not forgive them.
He prayed Father forgive them.

 

[Hawkins]

Forgiveness has a prerequisite condition which is repentance. A widow has 10 children, a murderer killed one of them then looks for her forgiveness by saying that he will continue to kill the rest of her children. Under that circumstance does forgiveness stand. It's no. Only when the murderer stopped killing her children as the prerequisite, only then one can talk about forgiveness.

Similarly, God's forgiveness is not unconditionally applied to all. You are told to repent all the time as it is a prerequisite. However, what can you expect from humans? Today even when they repent, tomorrow they commit sins as a sinner. With the New Covenant, God's Grace to humans is through Jesus Christ. That's where the prerequisite is rooted (i.e., besides your repeatable repentance). You need to believe in Jesus for God's forgiveness. That's how Jesus is the mediator between God and us sinners.

Now it boils down to what "believe in Jesus" could mean in terms of the New Covenant. A lot, in accordance to the various situations. Even Jesus said so,

Revelation 3:5
If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes, and I will not blot your name out of the book of life; I will confess your name before my Father and before his angels.

and,

Matthew 7:21 (NIV2011)
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

So the advice is, don't take for granted that God's forgiveness is unconditional by neglecting all the biblical warnings. Moreover, warnings are not made out of hatred. In the very contrary, true love is not without warnings.

 

[bling]

Is that what I said?
Read it again.

Jesus paying my sin debt to God -> God cancelling my sin debt to him = God forgiving my sin.

The problem is, what you saying is this: Jesus pays your sin debt to God and God forgives your debt.

If Jesus paid my debt there is no debt for God to forgive since Jesus paid it. The debt can be paid in full or completely forgiven, but you cannot do the both for the same debt (that would be three entries in accounting.)

Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and the author of Hebrews tell us this Payment of Christ and Him crucified is a literal ransom payment, so if the payment is to God, than God is the undeserving criminal kidnaper, which He is not.

Furthermore: Jesus was tortured, humiliated and murdered on the cross, which is a bloody cruel act, which might have given some satisfaction to some very wicked people, but if you’re saying this blood satisfied God in some way, you are making God out to be blood thirsty.

Christ’s cruel torture, humiliation and murder on the cross was out of Love for us, to help us, to provide for us and in obedience to God who was Loving us by allowing Christ to be crucified.

The “payment” is also made to us and we just need to accept it:

The payment= Jesus Christ and Him crucified is what we are trying to get the unbelieving sinner to accept and if he/she does a child is released to enter the Kingdom.

Is that what I said?
That's what "forgive" means--"debt cancelled". . .it "talks" about it by using the word "forgive."

Again! Paying a debt is not the same as forgiving a debt so: Where does it talk about Jesus making a payment to God?

Is that what I said?
See Matthew 20:28 for payment; i.e., buying back (from God's condemnation)

Again, who is the undeserving criminal kidnapper (the person who hopefully will accept the payment) receiving this ransom payment?

Is that what I said?
I just did in the parable.

Also see Matthew 13:30 - ". . .collect the tares and tie them in bundles to be burned."

The parable is about the kingdom (Matthew 18:23), not about salvation and judgment.

No, it does not. God providing mercy, grace, love, and Forgiving is not contingent, it is who God is. Accepting, as pure unserved charity, God’s mercy, grace, Love and forgiving is part of the definition to receiving these blessings. God never takes them back, but you can refuse to accept them.
These “tares” never accepted God’s Love, it does not say God took back His Love of tares, no one likes tares.
Salvation and judgement are very much a part of the Kingdom, the Parable talks about salvation (Charitable forgiveness) refused, not accepted, as pure undeserved charity and Judgement for the wicked (torture forever).

“Debtor’s prison” was a way the lender could force all the debtor’s friends and family to give as much money as they could to hopefully satisfy the lender and it was up to the lender to give the OK to let the debtor go, even if he was not paid in full, the lender would reason that was as much as he was going to get, so why leave him there. This story makes it very clear the lender is not going to ever let the debtor go, since this impossible huge loan would have to be paid in full.

Is that what I said?
I will quote your favorite question back to you:

Where do you find, can you show that in Scripture?

You gave your unbiblical description of “Debtor Prison” and I gave you mine from books I have read, the parable said: “In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.” And we know it would be impossible for someone starting with nothing to pay such a huge debt back so he will be tortured forever.

 

[bling]

Jesus saw the faith of those who brought the paralytic, faith to believe is complex, they came humbly yet determined, they were sacrificial in their care of there friend.
I see no reason why they and the paralysed man were not also repentant.
They knew they had to repent before coming to worship in the temple,so it is reasonable to assume they were repentant in coming to Jesu

Jesus's prayer on the cross. He did not forgive them.
He prayed Father forgive them.

Change comes with the unbelievable huge result (the lame person walked), what change (turning from bad to good happened before the forgiveness.
Are you saying Jesus asked God to do something He himself was unwilling to do or are you saying God did not forgive them?

 

[bling]

Forgiveness has a prerequisite condition which is repentance. A widow has 10 children, a murderer killed one of them then looks for her forgiveness by saying that he will continue to kill the rest of her children. Under that circumstance does forgiveness stand. It's no. Only when the murderer stopped killing her children as the prerequisite, only then one can talk about forgiveness.

Similarly, God's forgiveness is not unconditionally applied to all. You are told to repent all the time as it is a prerequisite. However, what can you expect from humans? Today even when they repent, tomorrow they commit sins as a sinner. With the New Covenant, God's Grace to humans is through Jesus Christ. That's where the prerequisite is rooted (i.e., besides your repeatable repentance). You need to believe in Jesus for God's forgiveness. That's how Jesus is the mediator between God and us sinners.

Now it boils down to what "believe in Jesus" could mean in terms of the New Covenant. A lot, in accordance to the various situations. Even Jesus said so,

Revelation 3:5
If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes, and I will not blot your name out of the book of life; I will confess your name before my Father and before his angels.

and,

Matthew 7:21 (NIV2011)
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

So the advice is, don't take for granted that God's forgiveness is unconditional by neglecting all the biblical warnings. Moreover, warnings are not made out of hatred. In the very contrary, true love is not without warnings.

You said: “You need to believe in Jesus for God's forgiveness.” Believing (trusting) in Jesus/God is not the same as repenting (changing your ways from bad to good).

I have addressed these ideas in the OP, so what specifically are you seeing as the problem with the OP?

While you are a hell bound sinner, you have no reason to like or Love God, He will judge you to hell at that time.

 

[Clare73]

The problem is,
what you saying is this: Jesus pays your sin debt to God and God forgives your debt.

That is precisely what the NT reveals.

I owe God's justice for sinning against him, just as I owe the Law for running a red light.
On the cross, Jesus paid my debt to God's justice, just as my husband paid my debt to the law at the Courthouse.
God cancelled my sin debt on the books, just as the judge cancelled my violation debt on the books at the Courthouse.

If Jesus paid my debt there is no debt for God to forgive since Jesus paid it.

One more time.
We're in accounting territory here, you are not appropriating the word "forgive" in its accounting sense.

Forgive = cancel the debt on the books, mark it out in the ledger, because it has been paid, it is
no longer owed.

Jesus paid it, therefore, on the books God cancelled it (forgave it).