God’s Definition of Forgiveness

[RDKirk]

As forgivers our responsibility does not begin and end with our forgiving our debtors, the parable shows there is more to it, we need to make sure the person being forgiven understands forgiveness and accepts the forgiveness as pure undeserved charity, so they can Love all the more.

No.

First, we realize we have no "debtors" when we realize that all we have actually belongs to the Lord. In Jesus' parable, whatever the lesser servant owed the unforgiving steward actually belonged to the master all along.

All of them were slaves indebted to the master. The steward was merely the top link of the debt chain.

This means that by cancelling the debt of the steward (one of the master's slaves), the master also cancelled the debts of all of his slaves who owned the steward. By extracting payment from those slaves, the steward was actually stealing from the master...again.

Second, we have no way--and no responsibility--to "make sure the person being forgiven understands forgiveness and accepts the forgiveness as pure undeserved charity" any more than God has.

Not even God makes sure the person being forgiven understands forgiveness and accepts forgiveness as pure undeserved charity. The parable of the unforgiving steward shows that does not always happen. The most important point that Jesus atypically makes clear is that such people are condemned by their unforgiveness. I say "atypically" because Jesus typically did not explain His parables to His general audience, but in this case, He made a specific point to immediately explain the parable because it is so absolutely and utterly critical: Unforgiveness is a direct ticket to Hell.

 

[bling]

No.

First, we realize we have no "debtors" when we realize that all we have actually belongs to the Lord. In Jesus' parable, whatever the lesser servant owed the unforgiving steward actually belonged to the master all along.

All of them were slaves indebted to the master. The steward was merely the top link of the debt chain.

This means that by cancelling the debt of the steward (one of the master's slaves), the master also cancelled the debts of all of his slaves who owned the steward. By extracting payment from those slaves, the steward was actually stealing from the master...again.

Second, we have no way--and no responsibility--to "make sure the person being forgiven understands forgiveness and accepts the forgiveness as pure undeserved charity" any more than God has.

Not even God makes sure the person being forgiven understands forgiveness and accepts forgiveness as pure undeserved charity. The parable of the unforgiving steward shows that does not always happen. The most important point that Jesus atypically makes clear is that such people are condemned by their unforgiveness. I say "atypically" because Jesus typically did not explain His parables to His general audience, but in this case, He made a specific point to immediately explain the parable because it is so absolutely and utterly critical: Unforgiveness is a direct ticket to Hell.

When Peter asked Christ about forgiving others who have wronged you, Jesus did not say: “They owe you nothing, but are indebted to God”.

There has to be a debt to forgive, if the person does not owe you anything then you’re forgiving them is meaningless.

How can the person being forgiven secretly, obtain a Love equal to the amount he/she was forgiven, at least a gratitude type love, if they do not know they were forgiven?

Can you show me in scripture where the transaction of forgiveness was completed with out the person forgiving knowing he/she was forgiven?

How can you experience personally the privilege and honor of forgiving others if they do not owe you?

Where do you find God forgiving a person without the person coming to realize they have been forgiven?

The master said: “Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?” The Master’s mercy was seen with him forgiving the servant, so to be like the master the first servant needs the second servant to owe him.

Jesus is explaining this parable to his enter circle and not with outsider present, so he does not have to even use a parable.

There is a lot more to the parable then just “Unforgiveness is a direct ticket to Hell”.

 

[bling]

That is precisely what the NT reveals.

I owe God's justice for sinning against him, just as I owe the Law for running a red light.
On the cross, Jesus paid my debt to God's justice, just as my husband paid my debt to the law at the Courthouse.
God cancelled my sin debt on the books, just as the judge cancelled my violation debt on the books at the Courthouse.

The “courthouse” in your example did not forgive you of running the red-light, your husband just paid the fine. If you were found “not guilty” of running the light, you would still not be forgiven by the court, but would not have to pay anything. If you ran the light and tried to avoid hiding anyone to get your child to the hospital, the court might “forgive you” and your husband would not pay anything.

One more time.
We're in accounting territory here, you are not appropriating the word "forgive" in its accounting sense.

Forgive = cancel the debt on the books, mark it out in the ledger, because it has been paid, it is
no longer owed.

Wait one idea is not in accounting with forgiving: “because it has been paid”, no the debt is cancelled because it has been forgiven and not paid.

Forgiven is not a common term used in accounting, usually it is placed under: “unpaid debt”, “uncollectable” or “write off”.

Jesus paid it, therefore, on the books God cancelled it (forgave it).

Again “paid” and “forgiven” are never the same thing.

 

[Clare73]

The “courthouse” in your example did not forgive you of running the red-light, your husband just paid the fine. If you were found “not guilty” of running the light, you would still not be forgiven by the court, but would not have to pay anything. If you ran the light and tried to avoid hiding anyone to get your child to the hospital, the court might “forgive you” and your husband would not pay anything.
Wait one idea is not in accounting with forgiving: “because it has been paid”, no the debt is cancelled because it has been forgiven and not paid.
Forgiven is not a common term used in accounting, usually it is placed under: “unpaid debt”, “uncollectable” or “write off”.
Again “paid” and “forgiven” are never the same thing.

Litigated in post #40. . .will not be relitigating it.

 

[bling]

Litigated in post #40. . .will not be relitigating it.

And I explained it with post # 43.
This is one small area of the OP, so why not try to address the rest?

 

[Clare73]

And I explained it with post # 43.

Will not be relitigating post #43.

This is one small area of the OP, so why not try to address the rest?

Such as?

 

[Tolworth John]

Are you saying Jesus asked God to do something He himself was unwilling to do or are you saying God did not forgive them

Read Jesus's words again.
He asks God to forgive them. He does not forgive e them for they have not repented, so he does what we have to do when people will not say sorry, hand it over to God and pray for them.

 

[Clare73]

Read Jesus's words again.
He asks God to forgive them. He does not forgive e them for they have not repented, so he does what we have to do when people will not say sorry, hand it over to God and pray for them.

Was he not speaking of the Roman soldiers who were nailing him to the cross and did not know what they were doing, where there repentance would not be be an issue?

 

[Tolworth John]

Was he not speaking of the Roman soldiers who were nailing him to the cross and did not know what they were doing, where there repentance would not be be an issue?

One could say he was speaking only of the soldiers who where responsible for nailing him to the cross, or one could argue he meant all who were involved in his trial etc.

The point is Jesus did not forgive, he prayed to God asking God to forgive.

 

[Clare73]

One could say he was speaking only of the soldiers who where responsible for nailing him to the cross, or one could argue he meant all who were involved in his trial etc.

Except he uttered it up on Calvary, not down at the Praetorium.

Likewise, he had already declared God's judgment on his murderers at his future trial (Luke 11:50-51).

The point is Jesus did not forgive, he prayed to God asking God to forgive.

Is it?

Their "knowing not what they do" did not apply to those who procured and approved his murder, they having had the truth preached to them and refusing to believe it, thereby making them culpably ignorant in their rejection of the Son, the unforgivable sin for both Jew and Gentile (John 3:18, John 3:36), and for whom Jesus would not be praying.

 

[Tolworth John]

Except he uttered it up on Calvary

Yes he said it while being crucified and as I said could apply to the soldiers or to all involved in his trial etc.

What he did not do was forgive them.

 

[bling]

Will not be relitigating post #43.

Such as?

The apparent withdrawing of God's unconditional forgiveness, because the person forgiven did not do what he had to do after being forgiven.

 

[Clare73]

Yes he said it while being crucified and as I said could apply to the soldiers or to all involved in his trial etc.

What he did not do was forgive them.

Jesus prayed against his Father's will in Luke 11:50-51?
Scripture indicates he was emphatically in agreement with it (Luke 11:47-48).

 

[bling]

Read Jesus's words again.
He asks God to forgive them. He does not forgive e them for they have not repented, so he does what we have to do when people will not say sorry, hand it over to God and pray for them.

You are saying: "God did not do (forgive) when Jesus asked God to forgive them", right?
Matthew 9:6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.
God and Christ are one, so God would do anything Christ wanted Him to do.

 

[Clare73]

The apparent withdrawing of God's unconditional forgiveness, because the person forgiven did not do what he had to do after being forgiven.

See post #31.

 

[bling]

See post #31.

I addressed your post 31 with my post 33.

Answer me this:
In the parable did the master take His forgiveness back?

 

[Clare73]

I addressed your post 31 with my post 33.

Which post is uninformed regarding the terms of the discussion.

Answer me this:
In the parable did the master take His forgiveness back?

In the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30), did the master take his talent back?

In both parables, the servants were judged and punished by losing their graces because they had misused or abused them.

 

[bling]

In the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30), did the master take his talent back?

In both parables, the servants were judged and punished by losing their graces because they had misused or abused them.

The "talent" is not God's forgiveness the servant is being a steward of. Forgiveness if correctly accepted as pure undeserved charity is not something we take to the market place to grow with use. Forgiveness is ours and not something we are stewards over.

 

[Clare73]

The "talent" is not God's forgiveness the servant is being a steward of. Forgiveness if correctly accepted as pure undeserved charity is not something we take to the market place to grow with use. Forgiveness is ours and not something we are stewards over.

Both are graces of God, which the parables are about, and the consequences of its misuse or abuse.

 

[bling]

Both are graces of God, which the parables are about, and the consequences of its misuse or abuse.

There are things we possess and there are God things we are stewards over.