Glossolalia

[sweetlambofgod]

some people speak in tongues at my church too but I dont

 

[Audiomechanic]

I guess I just can't wrap my head around the concept. God knows my heart, therefore I really don't even need words at all! But when I do, isn't English or (insert native language here ______) good enough? I'm no bible scholar so if anyone knows where in the bible it speaks of praying in the spirit, please let me know. I'm not being cocky, I really want to see for myself in the Word!

Since there's a website for everything now a days, I found this:

http://www.speaking-in-tongues.net/

It's a REALLY long read but I found some very interesting points in this website.

I hope I haven't insulted anyone here by my condescending opinion and/or ignorance. Twas not my intention.

 

[sherri]

I guess I just can't wrap my head around the concept.

That God prays better then you do? The point of tongues it that the Holy Spirit within us prays on our behalf. You might not like it but God created it.

God knows my heart, therefore I really don't even need words at all!

Then why pray at all. According to that reasoning it obviously has no purpose.

But when I do, isn't English or (insert native language here ______) good enough?

Us and our brain and language more effective then God and God's language?

Can't say that I agree with you.

(And as already been said - if God created it then why do you have a problem with it?)

I'm no bible scholar so if anyone knows where in the bible it speaks of praying in the spirit, please let me know. I'm not being cocky, I really want to see for myself in the Word!

You've already been given them (and quoted them youself) but you're ignoring them.

And as for your original point - from my own experience I've felt the Holy Spirit moving much more deeply at times when someone had used it to pray for me. Not suprising since it was the Holy Spirit praying for me through them.

1 Cor 14:5
Now I would like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy

That scripture tells us that it's a good thing that we all should seek after. How can you be comfortable with and operate out of the other spiritual gifts if tongues scares you?

Trying to write it off just because it makes you uncomfortable just robs you of something good from God (in fact it ends up robbing you of a lot of things because it really boils down to not trusting him).

 

[MarkEvan]

God knows my heart, therefore I really don't even need words at all!

Your right God does know your heart, and as you say He therefore knows what we are going to ask for before we ask it, but we are still told that we should ask, why? Personally I get the distinct impression that God wants to hear us ask for something, rather than just reading our minds and then giving us what we want, the other very imortant point is that, if God were to do that where would be the test for us, we need to persevere in prayer because sometimes God tests the motives of our hearts and we arn`t going to persevere for something we don`t truelly want.

4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[c] but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues,[d] unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

Secondly this verse clearly shows the reason for tongues, if we pray in tongues by ourselves because there is no interpreter then it edifies us, if we pray in tongues when there is an interpreter then the tongue is not for our benefit but for the benefit of the whole church as everyone will be edified.

So looking at what tongues does for yourself is one part of the gift, but you miss the larger more important part....that is what it does for the others in your church.


I hope that helps.

Mark

 

[Tuffguy]

Speaking in tounges is the biggest joke this side of Christianity. Its laughable!!!

How can it be meaningful if you don't know what you're saying? I feel sorry for children that are brought up in that atmosphere. Its so 'cultish'.

It doesn't even make any sense!!!! If it did, and speaking in tounges was really a "gift of the Spirit", then i suppose the Spirit has not blessed me. I must be missing the translation in the Bible. Oh wait,,,its not in the Bible. Oh wait,, no translation is needed because speaking in tounges is simply a reference in the Bible to language.

 

[shaslove]

I feel sorry for children that are brought up in that atmosphere. Its so 'cultish'.

I am not in a cult, nor am I "cultish" because I speak in tougues. Please be respectful to beliefs that are different than yours.

In addition, there are many scriptures that support this, which I will not reinterate, they are all in this thread.

 

[MarkEvan]

Speaking in tounges is the biggest joke this side of Christianity. Its laughable!!!

How can it be meaningful if you don't know what you're saying? I feel sorry for children that are brought up in that atmosphere. Its so 'cultish'.

It doesn't even make any sense!!!! If it did, and speaking in tounges was really a "gift of the Spirit", then i suppose the Spirit has not blessed me. I must be missing the translation in the Bible. Oh wait,,,its not in the Bible. Oh wait,, no translation is needed because speaking in tounges is simply a reference in the Bible to language.

Personally I agree that speaking in tongues is a forign language but one that the user does not know....it wouldn`t be much of a gift if it was a language we already knew!
Secondly Paul makes it quite clear that speaking in tongues or having any other gift..is not a requirment for our salvation.

Mark

 

[onajourney87]

I really don't get the "private prayer language" thing; it seems weird (nothing wrong with that...), and frankly is addressed very little in Scripture (if at all). Since I apparently don't have it, I have a hard time sympathizing with those who do.

The Biblical support for a private prayer language is fuzzy (most of the verses folks use to support it or refute it could go either way).

After a lot of reading, studying, and prayer I more or less came to the conclusion that as long as speaking in tongues is handled properly in a church service (follow 1 Cor 14 and test the spirit first as with anyone who is given a speaking position), it really doesn't matter that I don't understand (and lack a strong exegetical case either way) the "private prayer language."


(And that kinda sucks a bit, as I hate having theological issues laying around with loose ends...)

 

[Tuffguy]

Personally I agree that speaking in tongues is a forign language but one that the user does not know....it wouldn`t be much of a gift if it was a language we already knew!
Secondly Paul makes it quite clear that speaking in tongues or having any other gift..is not a requirment for our salvation.

Mark

So, if we don't know the language, and you don't know what you're saying, how can you be sure that what you are saying isn't an abomination to the Lord?

Of course he wouldn't mention that its required for salvation, its not a real gift.

God gave us reasoning, our gut feel, and above all our intelligence to communicate very clearly His praises. We should do just that.

 

[Audiomechanic]

I am not in a cult, nor am I "cultish" because I speak in tougues. Please be respectful to beliefs that are different than yours.

I agree. Lets not turn this into a "my ideology is better than yours" debate. That was not the intention of my starting of this thread. I simply want to understand and get info and state my case. I simply want to know if I am wrong. I am not so sure that I am yet as (stated above) the scriptural references requarding a personal tongue are fuzzy.

I am at work but I have more to say. More later.

 

[MarkEvan]

So, if we don't know the language, and you don't know what you're saying, how can you be sure that what you are saying isn't an abomination to the Lord?

Of course he wouldn't mention that its required for salvation, its not a real gift.

God gave us reasoning, our gut feel, and above all our intelligence to communicate very clearly His praises. We should do just that.

Firstly because there should be an interpreter there who will tell the congregation what was said, secondly because if the gift is real...(a lot of people speak falsly)....then it comes from God and not you..and God is highly unlikely to blaspheme Himself!

Again I agree that it is not required for salvation, but your arguement is with Paul on whether it is a real gift..he seems to think that it is, (I do believe that it is the most abused of the gifts).

We do not really know what to pray for (Pauls words) and so the Spirit intercedes with sighs to deep to understand, tongues is as much for other believers (if not primarily) as it is for you. Do you disagree? If so tell me what these verses mean.

Mark

 

[Tuffguy]

I agree. Lets not turn this into a "my ideology is better than yours" debate. That was not the intention of my starting of this thread. I simply want to understand and get info and state my case. I simply want to know if I am wrong. I am not so sure that I am yet as (stated above) the scriptural references requarding a personal tongue are fuzzy.

I am at work but I have more to say. More later.

I look at this issue with much more severity then something that could be perceived as gray, like full immersion baptism and infant baptism. The reason because this practice of speaking in tounges completely changes the entire worship experience. It turns a tratitional service into a crazy display of what appear to be emotionally unstable people. I'm not judging...i'm stating what i have seen, and what the appearance is.

Heres what i witnessed at my first pentacostial experience.
-people running around the room with flags and banners
-groups of people 'laying their hands on me', complete strangers mind you. This was extreemly uncomfortable.
-the children where totally scattered and not listening at all. What are they learning from this? It sure isn't discipline. I bet their pre-school classes are more organized.

It was a highly disturbing experience and i would openly discourage any believer not to take an unbeliever there. How do you explain that stuff to an unbeliever? The arguement is super grey at best even to a believer.

 

[shaslove]

I look at this issue with much more severity then something that could be perceived as gray, like full immersion baptism and infant baptism. The reason because this practice of speaking in tounges completely changes the entire worship experience. It turns a tratitional service into a crazy display of what appear to be emotionally unstable people. I'm not judging...i'm stating what i have seen, and what the appearance is.

Heres what i witnessed at my first pentacostial experience.
-people running around the room with flags and banners
-groups of people 'laying their hands on me', complete strangers mind you. This was extreemly uncomfortable.
-the children where totally scattered and not listening at all. What are they learning from this? It sure isn't discipline. I bet their pre-school classes are more organized.

It was a highly disturbing experience and i would openly discourage any believer not to take an unbeliever there. How do you explain that stuff to an unbeliever? The arguement is super grey at best even to a believer.

Not every pentecostal church is as you describe. It is unfair to make a blanket statement as such. I am sorry that your experience was uncomfertable. I, too, have been in an experience like that.

However, I beg to differ to that infant baptism is a gray area....I believe the scriptures that state speaking in tougues are clear. Where is the scripture that says baptize an infant?

 

[Tuffguy]

Sure, every pentecostal church is not like that. However, the one that i went to i'm sure had the same doctrine and beliefs as one that is less, shall we say, aggressive with speaking in tounges. The practice may vary but they are all basically doing the same thing.

I was using infant baptism as an example of things that divide believers, that maybe shouldn't. I view this differently.

 

[shaslove]

Sure, every pentecostal church is not like that. However, the one that i went to i'm sure had the same doctrine and beliefs as one that is less, shall we say, aggressive with speaking in tounges. The practice may vary but they are all basically doing the same thing.

I was using infant baptism as an example of things that divide believers, that maybe shouldn't. I view this differently.

You are still really generalizing this. Mm. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. My only request is that you are respectful about it, unlike your comment earlier.

 

[Audiomechanic]

That God prays better then you do? The point of tongues it that the Holy Spirit within us prays on our behalf. You might not like it but God created it.

Of course God prays better than I do. Compared to God, I stumble around my most poetic displays of communication like a 3 year old. The problem that I am having is that 1 Cor 14 focuses on speaking in tongues, not praying in them. I do believe the gift of speaking in tongues is real. I do not, however, believe that speaking in tongues means your own personal tongue, but that this gift is a means of communication between dialects in an unlearned scenario.

Then why pray at all. According to that reasoning it obviously has no purpose.

That's not what I meant. Allow me to clarify. What I meant is that God knows the emotion in my heart. If I cannot find the words to express what I am feeling, God already knows what I am feeling. The purpose of prayer is to excersize our relationship between us and the Lord which Jesus made possible by His sacrifice. Does God speak another language than me? In Heaven that is likely, if not definite. God also speaks all languages on earth as well.

Us and our brain and language more effective then God and God's language?

Can't say that I agree with you.

Of course not. The problem I have with it is that each person has a different "prayer language." If someone were speaking in a (or the) Heavenly tongue, would the tongues be similar? If we are truly speaking God's language, why then does that language differ quite drastically from person to person?

(And as already been said - if God created it then why do you have a problem with it?)

I have a problem with it as stated in above posts. I have not yet found definitive scriptural evidence that speaking in tongues means your own tongue. The passages already quoted can be interpreted either way. I also have a problem with it due to my tongue speaking at church experience (which as some have already stated, was a bad example, it lead me to research).

No need to be defensive, sherri. I am not here to attack but to learn or convince otherwise.

And as for your original point - from my own experience I've felt the Holy Spirit moving much more deeply at times when someone had used it to pray for me. Not suprising since it was the Holy Spirit praying for me through them.

This is interesting because what I felt at that church was also the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit was warning me. I was not filled with encouragement, I was filled with fear and the feeling that what was partaking around me was very very wrong. Whether or not it was is why I started this thread.

1 Cor 14:5
Now I would like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy

That scripture tells us that it's a good thing that we all should seek after. How can you be comfortable with and operate out of the other spiritual gifts if tongues scares you?

Not everyone receives every spiritual gift. Like I said before, I have never in my life had the urge to speak in another language. I failed foreign language in school. I believe that the Lord can grant individuals the power to speak in other dialects for the purpose of communication or convincing unbelievers. I also believe that someone who has the gift of tongues, may not be one who speaks it without learning. For example, a person who can speak 6 or 7 languages would have the gift of tongues. I do not have the ability to easily learn another language but some do.

Trying to write it off just because it makes you uncomfortable just robs you of something good from God (in fact it ends up robbing you of a lot of things because it really boils down to not trusting him).

What am I writing off here? If I was writing this off, I would have made up my mind and never started this thread. Sherri, there is really no need to be so defensive. Also, since that day, I have prayed to God, "Lord, if I am wrong, change my heart and mind!"

 

[Audiomechanic]

I look at this issue with much more severity then something that could be perceived as gray, like full immersion baptism and infant baptism. The reason because this practice of speaking in tounges completely changes the entire worship experience. It turns a tratitional service into a crazy display of what appear to be emotionally unstable people. I'm not judging...i'm stating what i have seen, and what the appearance is.

I can see your mindset.

Heres what i witnessed at my first pentacostial experience.
-people running around the room with flags and banners
-groups of people 'laying their hands on me', complete strangers mind you. This was extreemly uncomfortable.
-the children where totally scattered and not listening at all. What are they learning from this? It sure isn't discipline. I bet their pre-school classes are more organized.

It was a highly disturbing experience and i would openly discourage any believer not to take an unbeliever there. How do you explain that stuff to an unbeliever? The arguement is super grey at best even to a believer.

This experience is similar to mine but perhaps the church I attended was a bit more toned down that the one you did. No body laid hands on me or anything. It was still uncomfortable though.

 

[sherri]

I do not, however, believe that speaking in tongues means your own personal tongue, but that this gift is a means of communication between dialects in an unlearned scenario.

Then why does the bible say in 1 Cor 14: 2
For those who speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but to God; for nobody understands them since they are speaking mysteries in the Spirit.

Of course not. The problem I have with it is that each person has a different "prayer language." If someone were speaking in a (or the) Heavenly tongue, would the tongues be similar? If we are truly speaking God's language, why then does that language differ quite drastically from person to person?

I guess because people are doing exactly what the bible says they're doing and speaking in the mysteries of the spirit. And although it can vary drastically, tongues do sound pretty similar from person to person at times and I've heard the same phrases spoken by different people in different situtations which indicates that it is a spiritual universal language or languges that we're all using.

I have a problem with it as stated in above posts. I have not yet found definitive scriptural evidence that speaking in tongues means your own tongue.

The bible just describes it as tongues (or languages) that we don't understand.

Not everyone receives every spiritual gift. Like I said before, I have never in my life had the urge to speak in another language.

The bible says 'pursue love and strive for the spiritual gifts' I cor 14:1. The bible tells us to strive or go after them. If you've never had the urge to speak in tongues then I don't think it's that suprising that you've never had them.

I believe that the Lord can grant individuals the power to speak in other dialects for the purpose of communication or convincing unbelievers.

The bible clearly indicates that sometimes this is the case with tongues, but not all the time.

example - when the holy spirit first came on the believers at pentecost and they all started speaking in tonuges
Acts 2:1-11
When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God‑fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs–we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”


In otherwords, everyone was speaking in tongues and yet the unbelivers viewing them who'd come from all over the place heard the people speaking in their own individual language.

This is interesting because what I felt at that church was also the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit was warning me. I was not filled with encouragement, I was filled with fear and the feeling that what was partaking around me was very very wrong. Whether or not it was is why I started this thread.

So you were filled with fear because people all around you were speaking in tongues. Something that you're trying to prove is unbiblical. Which it obviously isn't. If they wern't speaking in tongues from God then it had to have been from only one other source - the devil. And unless you were visiting a church of satan, a whole congregation to be speaking in demonic tongues is highly unlikely.

Not everyone receives every spiritual gift. Like I said before, I have never in my life had the urge to speak in another language.

Well they sure arn't going to get it if they don't seek it are they?

I failed foreign language in school. I believe that the Lord can grant individuals the power to speak in other dialects for the purpose of communication or convincing unbelievers.

That is biblical - as in the example in Acts.

I also believe that someone who has the gift of tongues, may not be one who speaks it without learning.

? You'll need to clarify that one, I'm not sure that I get what you're saying.

For example, a person who can speak 6 or 7 languages would have the gift of tongues.
I do not have the ability to easily learn another language but some do.

So you're saying that a person who goes to college and learns japanese, french, german, italian, cantonese etc has the 'gift of tongues' as described in the bible.

Not sure where you get that one from because that doesn't have anything to do with what the bible describes as the 'gift of tongues'.

 

[Audiomechanic]

Then why does the bible say in 1 Cor 14: 2
For those who speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but to God; for nobody understands them since they are speaking mysteries in the Spirit.

I'll admit, you got me on this one. I'll have to research the context of this passage some more, but I'll give you some points for this.

I guess because people are doing exactly what the bible says they're doing and speaking in the mysteries of the spirit. And although it can vary drastically, tongues do sound pretty similar from person to person at times and I've heard the same phrases spoken by different people in different situtations which indicates that it is a spiritual universal language or languges that we're all using.

You and I have had very different experiences then. The tongues I heard were no where near similar, either in word formation, rythum, or any other sound. I can listen to two people speak in a language I don't know and I won't know what they are saying, but I will know they are speaking the same language even if they are not speaking to each other. The languages I heard were very different from one another.

The bible just describes it as tongues (or languages) that we don't understand.

Precisely. I don't understand Chinese but with the gift of tongues, I could.

The bible says 'pursue love and strive for the spiritual gifts' I cor 14:1. The bible tells us to strive or go after them. If you've never had the urge to speak in tongues then I don't think it's that suprising that you've never had them.

Actually, since that day at that church, I have prayed to God, "Lord, if I am wrong, please change my heart! Move in my heart and mind and instill your desires in me."

The bible clearly indicates that sometimes this is the case with tongues, but not all the time.

example - when the holy spirit first came on the believers at pentecost and they all started speaking in tonuges
Acts 2:1-11
When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God‑fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs–we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”


In otherwords, everyone was speaking in tongues and yet the unbelivers viewing them who'd come from all over the place heard the people speaking in their own individual language.

Actually, you're taking this verse out of context. Historically, this is not what happened. What happened is that there were gathered there many people from many different areas around that region and all of them spoke a different dialect. When it says that they all heard in their own language, it's not saying "their own personal language," but their own dialect. In other words, I am in a room with people from all over the world. If someone speaks to me in Spanish, I hear them in English.

Go back and read verse 7 and 8 right after the boldened verse above.

So you were filled with fear because people all around you were speaking in tongues. Something that you're trying to prove is unbiblical. Which it obviously isn't. If they wern't speaking in tongues from God then it had to have been from only one other source - the devil. And unless you were visiting a church of satan, a whole congregation to be speaking in demonic tongues is highly unlikely.

What about a lost church? Like I said, at the very least, what I felt was creeped out. I felt something more though. I left church exhausted! Physically and spiritually.

That is biblical - as in the example in Acts.

I agree.

? You'll need to clarify that one, I'm not sure that I get what you're saying.



So you're saying that a person who goes to college and learns japanese, french, german, italian, cantonese etc has the 'gift of tongues' as described in the bible.

Not sure where you get that one from because that doesn't have anything to do with what the bible describes as the 'gift of tongues'.

Sort of. I believe that our talents come from God. Some people have the ability to learn math, others have a mechanical aptitude, and some can learn cultures and languages very easily. Missionaries have this ability quite often; to be able to pick up languages just from being around a culture that is different from theirs. I think this is the less glamorous part of the gift, but a part of it nevertheless.

 

[sherri]

Precisely. I don't understand Chinese but with the gift of tongues, I could.

?? I haven't seen that one in the bible or heard of anyone else experiencing that through the gift of tongues. Sorry.

Actually, you're taking this verse out of context. Historically, this is not what happened. What happened is that there were gathered there many people from many different areas around that region and all of them spoke a different dialect. When it says that they all heard in their own language, it's not saying "their own personal language," but their own dialect. In other words, I am in a room with people from all over the world. If someone speaks to me in Spanish, I hear them in English.

Go back and read verse 7 and 8 right after the boldened verse above.

I don't think you understood me either because that's exactly what I was saying. Language as in a foreign language such as german, italian or spanish.

What about a lost church? Like I said, at the very least, what I felt was creeped out. I felt something more though. I left church exhausted! Physically and spiritually.

Lost church??? I'm sorry. But as I said - it could only have one other source besides God and that's satan. And any christian church speaking as a whole congregation in demonic tongues is highly unlikely. If they worship God at all (which they obviously do because they're all sitting in church) then they arn't going to satan seeking out a false gift of tongues. And if they're christian and they asked God for the gift of tongues do you honestly think he would have given them a demonic tongue instead. The only thing I can think of that could possibly have made you feel weirded out (other then the fact that you arn't comfortable with tongues as your posts have proven) is that they were all faking it and pretending. But that also seems highly unlikely for an entire church.

Sort of. I believe that our talents come from God. Some people have the ability to learn math, others have a mechanical aptitude, and some can learn cultures and languages very easily. Missionaries have this ability quite often; to be able to pick up languages just from being around a culture that is different from theirs. I think this is the less glamorous part of the gift, but a part of it nevertheless.

I hear what you're saying and I agree that a gift for languages is definatly a gift, same as exceptional maths ability or musical talent - but being good at learning languages has nothing to do with the spiritual gift of tongues as described in the bible. The bible describes what the gift of tongues is quite clearly and that's definatly not it.