Climate change seems to be an issue of far more importance to America and the human race as a whole than gay marriage will ever be. Yet it receives almost no attention on these forums or in the real world of politics. I am trying to understand why? If you are a climate change sceptic please elaborate...
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Global Warming?
- Thread starter chaim
- Start date
ballfan
Well-Known Member
What will the climate be in 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?
Some people say it will be hotter. Some even say the earth warming up might actually be good for us.
Others say it will be colder. I'm not sure how good that will be.
So warm up or Ice Age? Nobody knows.
Some say the present warm up is man made. Others say sunspots. Again nobody knows.
What if we manage somehow to make it cool down. And then enter an Ice Age. Will we have fouled up?
Some people say it will be hotter. Some even say the earth warming up might actually be good for us.
Others say it will be colder. I'm not sure how good that will be.
So warm up or Ice Age? Nobody knows.
Some say the present warm up is man made. Others say sunspots. Again nobody knows.
What if we manage somehow to make it cool down. And then enter an Ice Age. Will we have fouled up?
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JVD said:
Sorry, I missed that thread. What I really want to get at in this thread is not so much is global warming occuring or not, but for those who say it is not, what do they base their conclusion on? Why is it that it gets so little attention in main stream media and that so many people reject the possibility of man influencing theclimate?
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Global surface temperatures have increased about 0.4°F (0.2 to 0.3°C) over the past 25 years. That strikes me as being amazingly stable.
Global warming phobics note specific areas that have gotten warmer since we began recording temperatures, but that period is relatively too small to get hysterical over. There is scientific evidence that a similar warming period from 1330 AD to 1600 AD took place. We might just be in a natural upswing in a cycle that's lasted thousands of years.
Also, they usually fail to mention the areas that have actually cooled off over the last half century; like the South Eastern United States.
Global warming phobics note specific areas that have gotten warmer since we began recording temperatures, but that period is relatively too small to get hysterical over. There is scientific evidence that a similar warming period from 1330 AD to 1600 AD took place. We might just be in a natural upswing in a cycle that's lasted thousands of years.
Also, they usually fail to mention the areas that have actually cooled off over the last half century; like the South Eastern United States.
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Gracchus
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Weather is chaotic. Small changes can make very big differences. Global warming is not just about temperature change. Pump more heat into the system and storms bcome stronger and more frequent. Weather patterns become unstable, crops fail. Some species become more dominant and others may even go extinct.
We are rolling a hatful of dice, and there are more ways to lose than there are to win.
We are rolling a hatful of dice, and there are more ways to lose than there are to win.
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I am wondering where you get your information from? And waht makes you draw the conclusions you do? I am curious as to how people come to the conclusions that the do.
To address your point...
The warming in the past 25 years has been the most abrupt than that seen in the Medieval Warm Period or any time in the last two or three millenia. 0.1 C per decade and accelerating is exteremly rapid change compared to the paleo-climate history of earth and is definitely not stable. The number you quoted is global average surface temperature, there are some areas that are colling but more areas that are warming at faster than 0.1C per decade. In fact GCM's predict the regional cooling events that have been observed - the are entirely consistent with the global warming model.
To address your point...
The warming in the past 25 years has been the most abrupt than that seen in the Medieval Warm Period or any time in the last two or three millenia. 0.1 C per decade and accelerating is exteremly rapid change compared to the paleo-climate history of earth and is definitely not stable. The number you quoted is global average surface temperature, there are some areas that are colling but more areas that are warming at faster than 0.1C per decade. In fact GCM's predict the regional cooling events that have been observed - the are entirely consistent with the global warming model.
serioussamster said:
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I don't think we have enough information to know why it's warming, it could be completely natural. We do know it has been warming, and we know about more than 25 years back, it's worth checking out, but I don't want to buy into the alarmists theories.
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Anyone see 60 Minutes last Sunday? An administration lawyer redacts, edits and inserts his own rhetoric into the report of a government scientist. The lawyer has complete control over the final report. As such, any official findings coming out of the administration must be read with skepticism.
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If the warming that has been observed is natural, what is the cause? Even if the warming is not caused by humans, there still must be some forcing to skew the radiative budget. The Earth doesn't change temperature for no particular reason. I am not trying to be dissmisive, just trying to understand your reasoning.
momalle1 said:
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I agree that extreme reaction is not helpful, but those studying the phenomena are trained scientists. They are not guessing. They fully understand the effects CO2 has on the atmosphere.momalle1 said:
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== I am wondering where you get your information from?
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html#Q3
And:
http://www.skepticism.net/articles/2002/000033.html
http://www.skepticism.net/faq/environment/global_warming/index.html
== The warming in the past 25 years has been the most abrupt than that seen in the Medieval Warm Period or any time in the last two or three millenia.
Says who? Weather/temperature monitoring technology wasn’t even around prior to the 20th century, and the most reliable forms are only a few decades old. It is silly to compare what cannot be compared. The fact is we don’t have enough information to leap to conclusions.
I find it humorous how libs can jump into hysteria over something based on so little evidence. The film “The Day After Tomorrow” was a joke based on the usual scare tactics offered by environmentalists.
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html#Q3
And:
http://www.skepticism.net/articles/2002/000033.html
http://www.skepticism.net/faq/environment/global_warming/index.html
== The warming in the past 25 years has been the most abrupt than that seen in the Medieval Warm Period or any time in the last two or three millenia.
Says who? Weather/temperature monitoring technology wasn’t even around prior to the 20th century, and the most reliable forms are only a few decades old. It is silly to compare what cannot be compared. The fact is we don’t have enough information to leap to conclusions.
I find it humorous how libs can jump into hysteria over something based on so little evidence. The film “The Day After Tomorrow” was a joke based on the usual scare tactics offered by environmentalists.
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serioussamster said:
Says the entire field of paleo-climatology. The very source you use, NCDC, is heavily involved in paleo-climate:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/paleo.html
Thanks for telling me what the "fact is". Maybe you should give NCDC a call and let them know how wrong they are.
I agree the day after tomorrow is a joke, however I don't know anyone who is basing their oppinion on this movie. If global warming is not real and their is so little evidence for it, I am sure you could show me some solid scientific evidence that it is not happening?
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== If global warming is not real and their is so little evidence for it, I am sure you could show me some solid scientific evidence that it is not happening?
You're asking me to prove a negative?
Those who make the claims of global warming, and add to the environmentalist hysteria and anti-American sentiment (Kyoto) are the ones with the burden of proof, not vice versa.
You're asking me to prove a negative?
Those who make the claims of global warming, and add to the environmentalist hysteria and anti-American sentiment (Kyoto) are the ones with the burden of proof, not vice versa.
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Environmentalist hysteria? Anti-American sentiment? What are you talking about? Do you know anything about science? Do you think scientists are pawns of environmental groups? Are scientists out to get America?serioussamster said:
Hysteria, indeed.
The claims are well documented. Thank God that the Bush administration cannot taint the findings of foreign studies.
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== Environmentalist hysteria?
Yes.
== Anti-American sentiment?
Yes.
== What are you talking about?
Ever hear of the Kyoto Protocol?
== Do you know anything about science?
More than some, not as much as others, but enough to know science hasn’t proved global warming to be anything than an upswing in a centuries old cycle.
== Do you think scientists are pawns of environmental groups? Are scientists out to get America?
I think you’re operating under the delusion that all scientists agree with the typical Liberal rant about Global Warming, its expected trend and causes.
== Hysteria, indeed.
Which proves my point, thanks.
Yes.
== Anti-American sentiment?
Yes.
== What are you talking about?
Ever hear of the Kyoto Protocol?
== Do you know anything about science?
More than some, not as much as others, but enough to know science hasn’t proved global warming to be anything than an upswing in a centuries old cycle.
== Do you think scientists are pawns of environmental groups? Are scientists out to get America?
I think you’re operating under the delusion that all scientists agree with the typical Liberal rant about Global Warming, its expected trend and causes.
== Hysteria, indeed.
Which proves my point, thanks.
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J
JVD
Guest
I have been spending some time on this this "Climate Science" site
http://climatesci.atmos.colostate.edu/
Following are a couple quotes from this site.
The response shows that qualified climate scientists completely disagree...here is more.
In other words, scientist still know so little about all the inputs that cause climate change that we cannot know if humans are causing us to go closer to the "tipping point", or further away from it.
I am no scientist. But I am interested in science. If one were to spend some time on this site I think one will have a more balanced perspective of the whole idea of global warming.
Basically these scientist use the term climate change rather than global warming. That is wise because as they point out, while we may be warming now, who is to say we might not be cooling soon.
Climate changes. That's a fact....
There are so many different causes and these causes interact in so many different ways that scientists are just barely beginning to understand the cause and effects of different inputs.
Computer models are the only thing that can be used to predict climate change, and these models do not begin to reproduce the interactions of the systems causing climate change.
http://climatesci.atmos.colostate.edu/
Following are a couple quotes from this site.
The response shows that qualified climate scientists completely disagree...here is more.
In other words, scientist still know so little about all the inputs that cause climate change that we cannot know if humans are causing us to go closer to the "tipping point", or further away from it.
I am no scientist. But I am interested in science. If one were to spend some time on this site I think one will have a more balanced perspective of the whole idea of global warming.
Basically these scientist use the term climate change rather than global warming. That is wise because as they point out, while we may be warming now, who is to say we might not be cooling soon.
Climate changes. That's a fact....
There are so many different causes and these causes interact in so many different ways that scientists are just barely beginning to understand the cause and effects of different inputs.
Computer models are the only thing that can be used to predict climate change, and these models do not begin to reproduce the interactions of the systems causing climate change.
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We're destroying this planet. This is a very simple feedback issue. We expend carbon dioxide, plants process it and return it as oxygen. Now we're suffering from deforestation and desertification in some areas and out usage of fossil fuels has greatly increased the amount of carbon dioxide we produce. As a result, there is a lot of carbon dioxide and less plants, so where is this gas beng processed? It's not, it's sitting around and trapping more heat that the Earth absorbs. Consequently, that leads to a warming planet. This is something very simple, it is something we've done to ourselves, so people need to stop going on as if there's a debate and start moving in the direction of finding a solution.
Pointing the finger at people and telling them to use less won't do anything because we are ALL dependent on fossil fuels and we haven't made a concerted effort to change our course. This must be a concerted effort, who's with me? Some of you are in disbelief, but I treat this as being on a ship heading for an iceberg with no life boats. We can't just leave you because you'll continue to make it bad for all of us. We need you on board, or we need a mutiny.
If people simply saw the economic dominance this country would have if they invested in alternative fuel technology (especially fusion technology) we'd beat other countries before they make all the money. From the looks of it, I think Japan or France will do it first and reap the benefits. People could stand to learn a lot from the American car companies overreliance on the SUV market paired with cheap gas; they're suffering now.
Pointing the finger at people and telling them to use less won't do anything because we are ALL dependent on fossil fuels and we haven't made a concerted effort to change our course. This must be a concerted effort, who's with me? Some of you are in disbelief, but I treat this as being on a ship heading for an iceberg with no life boats. We can't just leave you because you'll continue to make it bad for all of us. We need you on board, or we need a mutiny.
If people simply saw the economic dominance this country would have if they invested in alternative fuel technology (especially fusion technology) we'd beat other countries before they make all the money. From the looks of it, I think Japan or France will do it first and reap the benefits. People could stand to learn a lot from the American car companies overreliance on the SUV market paired with cheap gas; they're suffering now.
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== We're destroying this planet.
Nonsense. How arrogant could we possibly be to think we could destroy Earth? This planet has adapted and overcome much more than what's we've thrown at it and she keeps ticking. Each Volcanic explosion pumps more chlorine, sulfur, and various other toxic chemicals into the atmosphere than 10 years of man-made polution.
This is precisely the hysteria I was talking about. And it is based on no hard evidence, just speculaton.
Nonsense. How arrogant could we possibly be to think we could destroy Earth? This planet has adapted and overcome much more than what's we've thrown at it and she keeps ticking. Each Volcanic explosion pumps more chlorine, sulfur, and various other toxic chemicals into the atmosphere than 10 years of man-made polution.
This is precisely the hysteria I was talking about. And it is based on no hard evidence, just speculaton.
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