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Global Flood Question

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Valkhorn

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If there was a global flood... how come creationists associate proof of a global flood with many layers of sedimentation?

Don't single-event floods yeild only ONE layer of sediment?

How in the world can one global flood yeild thousands of layers of sediment in places?

(I've always wondered these... so I can't wait to be entertained with an answer)
 

RVincent

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There was a global flood.

But I do not refer to the flood of Genesis 9.

I refer, rather, to the katabole' of the "the world that then was" (2 Pet. 3:6), when the earth became without form and void (Gen. 1:2).

So the Bible records two floods. However, to say that this means there were only two floods or upheavals would be an irresponsible and hasty conclussion to make.
 
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A4C

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Valkhorn said:
If there was a global flood... how come creationists associate proof of a global flood with many layers of sedimentation?

Don't single-event floods yeild only ONE layer of sediment?

How in the world can one global flood yeild thousands of layers of sediment in places?

(I've always wondered these... so I can't wait to be entertained with an answer)
If the soils that God created and placed on this earth were all the same and there were no animals or plants or anything else that could get washed out then a global flood would perhaps produce a single sediment layer but it would be a rather bland earth would it not. Aren't you glad we have a God of diversity?
By the way creationists just dont rely on sediments as proof but look at the erosion by receeding waters as proof also.
 
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J

Jet Black

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A4C said:
If the soils that God created and placed on this earth were all the same and there were no animals or plants or anything else that could get washed out then a global flood would perhaps produce a single sediment layer but it would be a rather bland earth would it not. Aren't you glad we have a God of diversity?
By the way creationists just dont rely on sediments as proof but look at the erosion by receeding waters as proof also.
can you explain the four million layers of sediment found in the green river formation, the forty thousand layers found in sugietsu, and tens of thousands found in European lakes, and why the amounts of C14 in these layers correlate with the predicted C14 dates from radiaoactive decay, and why these dates match up with tree ring dating and why these dates also match up with ice core dating, buth in terms of numbers of ice core layers and also the trapped c14 content, yet again?
 
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Valkhorn

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By the way creationists just dont rely on sediments as proof but look at the erosion by receeding waters as proof also.
Do you also look at the number of layers found in many areas? Do you also look at the building of geological features and not just the erosion of them?

can you explain the four million layers of sediment found in the green river formation, the forty thousand layers found in sugietsu, and tens of thousands found in European lakes, and why the amounts of C14 in these layers correlate with the predicted C14 dates from radiaoactive decay, and why these dates match up with tree ring dating and why these dates also match up with ice core dating, buth in terms of numbers of ice core layers and also the trapped c14 content, yet again?
I doubt he can answer it, Jet Black... and my guess is he will either

a) Ignore this post
b) Misread this post and dispute another PRATT
or
c) Tell us more about why only a literal interpretation of Genesis gets you into heaven

But at least we're giving it a gallant effort.
 
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A4C

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Jet Black said:
can you explain the four million layers of sediment found in the green river formation, the forty thousand layers found in sugietsu, and tens of thousands found in European lakes, and why the amounts of C14 in these layers correlate with the predicted C14 dates from radiaoactive decay, and why these dates match up with tree ring dating and why these dates also match up with ice core dating, buth in terms of numbers of ice core layers and also the trapped c14 content, yet again?
Are you referring the the same deposits where there are fossilised fish through multiple layers - if so than there can be no other explanation other than a flood putting down layers in quick succession
 
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A4C, there is a special type of rock formed in riverbeds or, for instance, in floods. This type of rock is known as conglomerate.

Now, conglomerate rock experiences a version of sorting -- that is, there is a gradient of grain size with larger grains (boulders) on bottom, going up through smaller grains on top (silt). However, this is all still one layer. There is blending and mixing. This is what we expect from a flood, but we do not see this in the geological column. What we see is something like this:

Sandstone
Siltstone
Shale
Coal
Congolmerate
Fine-grained Sandstone
Limestone
Congolmerate
Pre-Cambrian Metamorphic

This would indicate a (varied) marine regression, not a transgression. Also, each of these layers would be clearly marked -- you would go from on to the other in the space of a few centimeters. There is little to no mixing.

There is literally no way a global flood hypothesis can explain this, especially the coal and limestone deposits, not to mention the intricacies and fossils of each.
 
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A4C

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HRE said:
A4C, there is a special type of rock formed in riverbeds or, for instance, in floods. This type of rock is known as conglomerate.

Now, conglomerate rock experiences a version of sorting -- that is, there is a gradient of grain size with larger grains (boulders) on bottom, going up through smaller grains on top (silt). However, this is all still one layer. There is blending and mixing. This is what we expect from a flood, but we do not see this in the geological column. What we see is something like this:

Sandstone
Siltstone
Shale
Coal
Congolmerate
Fine-grained Sandstone
Limestone
Congolmerate
Pre-Cambrian Metamorphic

This would indicate a (varied) marine regression, not a transgression. Also, each of these layers would be clearly marked -- you would go from on to the other in the space of a few centimeters. There is little to no mixing.

There is literally no way a global flood hypothesis can explain this, especially the coal and limestone deposits, not to mention the intricacies and fossils of each.
Actually I would question what you said you would expect from a flood. You said that you would expect boulders on the bottom - well I would not . I would expect that topsoils would be washed out first and deposited downstream then heaviers soils like clays might be washed out and water currents became greater . Boulders would only be relocated where there are huge currents such as what you might expect locally with receeding waters draining from a huge area (The Grand Canyon is a typical example)
 
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caravelair

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Valkhorn said:
If there was a global flood... how come creationists associate proof of a global flood with many layers of sedimentation?

Don't single-event floods yeild only ONE layer of sediment?

How in the world can one global flood yeild thousands of layers of sediment in places?

(I've always wondered these... so I can't wait to be entertained with an answer)

in addition to this question, i would like to ask, if all the sediments are layed down at the same time, why do deeper layers consistently date older than higher layers? even if you don't believe in radiometric dating, you would still have to explain why we get these results. so why does the deeper = older rule work?
 
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A4C

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caravelair said:
in addition to this question, i would like to ask, if all the sediments are layed down at the same time, why do deeper layers consistently date older than higher layers? even if you don't believe in radiometric dating, you would still have to explain why we get these results. so why does the deeper = older rule work?
This is only a possibility and I am not claiming proof but:
Supposing that layers of earth were not subject to the same characteristics which dating methods rely on .
Therefore if deeper layers of sediment represented previously higher earth levels then this may have an effect of the "apparent " date
 
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A4C said:
Actually I would question what you said you would expect from a flood. You said that you would expect boulders on the bottom - well I would not . I would expect that topsoils would be washed out first and deposited downstream then heaviers soils like clays might be washed out and water currents became greater . Boulders would only be relocated where there are huge currents such as what you might expect locally with receeding waters draining from a huge area (The Grand Canyon is a typical example)
Well, I'm glad that you would expect that, but we can even observe modern, contemporary floods and examine their stratigraphy, and it always goes from large grains on the bottom to small grains on top. Why? Because small grains take longer to settle out. This is what we see in rivers, flood plains (which are even cooler, because we can see one flood (large to small) on top of another (large to small), so it goes large-small-large-small, etc.), washbasins, and on and on and on.

What you would imagine or expect is directly opposed to what we see now, as it is happening, even without the fossil layer.
 
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A4C said:
This is only a possibility and I am not claiming proof but:
Supposing that layers of earth were not subject to the same characteristics which dating methods rely on .
Therefore if deeper layers of sediment represented previously higher earth levels then this may have an effect of the "apparent " date
Ok. Let's visualize this. You have 8 layers, A-H in the bottom of a lake:

H
G
F
E
D
C
B
A

We hypothesize that these form every, say, 10000 years. When we date them, we find that the bottom layer is 80,000 years old, and each subsequent layer is 10000 years younger. You are suggesting that, because A was originally higher than B or C, it would decay faster than B or C?
 
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A visual:

14DSCN1792-base-of-Castle-Rock%20Conglomerate.jpg


That, A4C, is an ancient riverbed. You can even see the sloping sides that were cut open when a canyon was carved across the old riverbed. Observe the huge boulders on the bottom. Now, a closer image:

sedDianeconglomerate2.jpg


See that, in just a few feet, you have a steady gradient from Large rocks to pebbles, and then finer grains. This is what we see in flood plains and riverbeds.

On the stratigraphic column as a whole, though, grain sizes can do this:

Medium
Very fine
Fine
Mesh
Congolmerate
Medium Fine
Microscopic
Congolmerate
Pre-Cambrian Metamorphic

With rapid changes and back-and-forth fluctuations between very fine grains, fine grains, coarse grains, and back to microscopic grains in only a hundred feet, something that simply does not occur during a flood.
 
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Also, the whole concept of geology in flood stratigraphy is off. We can find in some canyons (go to cloudland canyon, georgia for a beautiful example) places where the river cut across a pre-existing fossilized riverbed, and we can see where the ancient, bi-sected river is on one side and find it on the other. If the canyon was formed during a global deluge, when was the pre-existing riverbed formed and fossilized?
 
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Ondoher

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HRE said:
Also, the whole concept of geology in flood stratigraphy is off. We can find in some canyons (go to cloudland canyon, georgia for a beautiful example) places where the river cut across a pre-existing fossilized riverbed, and we can see where the ancient, bi-sected river is on one side and find it on the other. If the canyon was formed during a global deluge, when was the pre-existing riverbed formed and fossilized?
Or just buried erosional canyons in general:
Deltain3d1.gif


Burried rivers: http://home.entouch.net/dmd/rivchan.htm
 
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Let me give you a better visual than my blathering:
riverbed.bmp

We have two images here. I'll talk about the top one first.

This shows the stratigraphy (layers) of an fossilized riverbed and its surroundings. The black to light-grey sequence of the bed relates to the coarseness of the grains we see inside one, solid rock (conglomerate). I should add that the boundaries would not be that definite; the layers of grey would mix a bit but still keep the same gradient.

Around it, the other shades of red indicate varying types of sedimentary rock, most likely sandstone. This would be caused be a marine regression, where an ocean recedes leaving behind marsh, then rivers, then forests. Thus, the deep burgundy is limestone (oceanic rock), followed by coal and shales (marshlands). After that are the river(s), and the red around it would probably be coarse sandstone from flood washes of the river, especially in its shallower (lighter) stages.

After that is pink: shale and some more (less fertile) coal from a forest that took on the fertile land of the former river.

Each of these layers would be very distinct.

So far, we have a fossilized river inside a series of layers that indicate a marine regression, each one showing a different environment. Let me emphasize: a distinct, traceable river inside an entirely separate series of layers.

Now, to add to the conundrum, we have three different types of fossils found in the sandstones and shales on the distinct, observable riverbanks. (when I say distinct, I mean you can tell where the riverbanks had a cave in at some point. These are detailed.)

The blue streaks are footprints of a creature dependent on water, probably a predator that caught fish (why? Because those footprints do not appear later, when the river is shallower and no game would survive) equivalent to our modern crocodile or bear.

As the river got shallower, we find a new set of prints of a creature that probably came to the river to drink, as it was getting shallower and not much substantial game remained. Examination of the sandstone layers for environmental traces would confirm or refute this. The creatures lived in the floodplain and early forest, like our modern deer.

Finally, in the forest environment, the river is pretty much entirely dried up. On top of it, we have a new set of footprints: an animal that was at home in the groundlevel of the forest, but not around rivers.

Follow so far? Good.

Now, the second image. We have this ancient riverbed that we would never have found had a canyon not cut through it, exposing it. In this image, you can see the riverbed and the canyon. The red indicates where you can see the riverbed on both sides of the canyon.

This is the old-earth, evolutionist's interpretation. If you have an alternate one that jives with these bolded facts, let me know.
 
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