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Giants!

Starcrystal

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BrandonGray said:
I was watching the Discovery channel and they said there was a large type of man that was a cousin to homo-sapians- maybe they are mistaking the giants for them?

Discovery channel = good programming most of the time but definitely has an "explain it away" attitude when it comes to true Biblical stuff. Oh yeah, the red sea really parted because the tide qwent out in a shallow area, the manna was really some kind of bug dung, blah blah blah.
I'm sorry but a lot of programming takes an atheistic evolutionary approach and while they will pretty much accept there might be aliens in UFOs visiting our planet they balk when it comes to miraculous things of God.
maybe they should do aprogram on the REAL history of the Anunnaki and Tuade d' Anu and unravel it from the fake historical junk that certain churches and society has bound it up with.:)
 
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prophecy4

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Starcrystal said:
Yes, the Nephilim are the same as the Watchers mentioned in more detail in Enoch. They are also connected with the Summerian "gods." I don't have all the names now, nor would I wish to list some of them as there were some bad guys. However, rather than categorizing all "Nephilim" as evil, we must consider that some though they initially rebelled with Lucifer, also left Lucifer to come to earth and live on earth a more "normal" life. Of course some corrupted their spouses & offspring as described by Enoch, but others sought only peace, and they also sought repentance.

i always heard that the watchers were a group of angels. i'll be sure to check that out.
 
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prophecy4

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xpiotosaves said:
Also the people in those days were alot smaller. I could be wrong but maybe Goliath really wasn't 9+ feet tall but was estimated to be that tall. He could have been 8'11 or so. I doubt David stopped to measure him before he beheaded Goliath.

people were smaller? i hear that alot, but never seen any proof of it. david could have measured him after he cut his head off.
 
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DeepMindQuest

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THE NEPHILIM, OR "GIANTS" Of GEN. 6, &c.


The progeny of the fallen angels with the daughters of Adam are called in Gen. 6, Ne-phil-im, which means fallen ones (from naphal, to fall). What these beings were can be gathered only from Scripture. They were evidently great in size, as well as great in wickedness. They were superhuman, abnormal beings; and their destruction was necessary for the preservation of the human race, and for the faithfulness of Jehovah's Word (Gen. 3:15).

This was why the Flood was brought "upon the world of the ungodly" (2Pet. 2:5) as prophesied by Enoch (Jude 14).
But we read of the Nephilim again in Num. 13:33 : "there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, which come of the Nephilim". How, it may be asked, could this be, if they were all destroyed in the Flood? The answer is contained in Gen. 6:4, where we read : "There were Nephilim in the earth in those days (i.e. in the days of Noah); and also AFTER THAT, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became [the] mighty men (Heb. gibbor, the heroes) which were of old, men of renown" (lit. men of the name, i.e. who got a name and were renowned for their ungodliness).
So that "after that", i.e. after the Flood, there was a second irruption of these fallen angels, evidently smaller in number and more limited in area, for they were for the most part confined to Canaan, and were in fact known as "the nations of Canaan". It was for the destruction of these, that the sword of Israel was necessary, as the Flood had been before.
As to the date of this second irruption, it was evidently soon after it became known that the seed was to come through Abraham; for, when he came out from Haran (Gen. 12:6) and entered Canaan, the significant fact is stated : "The Canaanite was then (i.e. already) in the land." And in Gen. 14:5 they were already known as "Raphain" and Emim", and had established themselves at Asteroth Karnaim and Shaven Kiriathaim.
In ch. 15:18-21 they are enumerated and named among Canaanite Peoples : "Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, and the Amorites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites" (Gen. 15:19-21; cp. Ex. 3:8, 17; 23:23. Deut. 7; 20:17. Josh. 12:8).
These were to be cut off, and driven out, and utterly destroyed (Deut. 20:17. Josh. 3:10). But Israel failed in this (Josh. 13:13; 15:63; 16:10; 17:18. Judg. 1:19, 20, 28, 29, 30-36; 2:1-5; 3:1-7); and we known not how many got away to other countries to escape the general destruction. If this were recognized it would go far to solve many problems connected with Anthropology.
As to their other names, they were called Anakim, from on Anak which came of the Nephilim (Num. 13:23), and Rephaim, from Rapha, another notable one among them. From Deut. 2:10, they were known by some as Emim, and Horim, and Zamzummim (v. 20, 21) and Avim, &c.
As Rephaim they were well known, and are often mentioned : but, unfortunately, instead of this, their proper name, being preserved, it is variously translated as "dead", "deceased", or "giants". These Rephaim are to have no resurrection. This fact is stated in Isa. 26:14 (where the proper name is rendered "deceased," and v. 19, where it is rendered "the dead"). It is rendered "dead" seven times (Job 26:5. Ps. 88:10. Prov. 2:18; 9:18; 21:16. Isa. 14:8; 26:19). It is rendered "deceased" in Isa. 26:14.
It is retained as a proper name "Rephaim" ten times (two being in the margin). Gen. 14:5; 15:20. Josh. 12:15 (marg.). 2Sam. 5:18, 22; 23:13.& b31 nbsp; 1Chron. 11:15; 14:9; 20:4 (marg.). Isa. 17:5. In all other places it is rendered "giants", Gen. 6:4; Num. 23:33, where it is Nephilim; and Job 16:14, where it is gibbor . By reading all these passages the Bible student may know all that can be known about these beings.
It is certain that the second irruption took place before Gen. 14, for there the Rephaim were mixed up with the five nations or peoples, which included Sodom and Gomorrha, and were defeated by the four kings under Chedorlaomer. Their principal locality was evidently "Ashtaroth Karnaim"; while the Emim were in the plain of Kiriathaim (Gen. 14:5).
Anak was a noted descendant of the Nephilim; and Rapha was another, giving their names respectively to different clans. Anak's father was Arba, the original builder of Hebron (Gen. 35:27. Josh. 15:13; 21:11); and this Palestine branch of the Anakim was not called Arbahim after him, but Anakim after Anak. They were great, mighty, and tall (Deut. 2:10, 11, 21, 22, 23; 9:2), evidently inspiring the ten spies with great fear (Num. 13:33). Og king of Bashan is described in Deut. 3:11.
Their strength is seen in "the giant cities of Bashan" to-day; and we know not how far they may have been utilized by Egypt in the construction of buildings, which is still an unsolved problem. Arba was rebuilt by the Khabiri or confederates seven years before Zoan was built by the Egyptian Pharoahs of the nineteenth dynasty. See note on Num. 13:22.
If these Nephilim, and their branch of Rephaim, were associated with Egypt, we have an explanation of the problem which has for ages perplexed all engineers, as to how those huge stones and monuments were brought together. Why not in Egypt as well as in "the giant cities of Bashan" which exist, as such, to this day?
Moreover, we have in these mighty men, the "men of renown," the explanation of the origin of the Greek mythology. That mythology was no mere invention of the human brain, but it grew out of the traditions, and memories, and legends of the doings of that mighty race of beings; and was gradually evolved out of the "heroes" of Gen. 6:4. The fact that they were supernatural in their origin formed an easy step to their being regarded as the demi-gods of the Greeks. Thus the Babylonian "Creation Tablets", the Egyptian "Book of the dead", the Greek mythology, and heathen Cosmogonies, which by some are set on an equality with Scripture, or by others adduced in support of it, are all the corruption and perversion of primitive truths, distorted in proportion as their origin was forgotten, and their memories faded away.
 
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cherokeehippie

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Another thing, when the nephilim--offspring of fallen angels and human women, died, they became the demons. Demons are not fallen angels, they are the dead nephilim.
I've been reading up on the subject for some time. I live in a particular county in the Ozarks and happened to have two totally different people confirm to me that several years ago, archaelogists(before it was against the law to excavated Native burials) excavated and uncovered 8 to 9 ft tall human skeletons here in the county I live in!! The second person who confirmed this to me, told me that where she was living at the time, had demonic stuff going on--'hauntings' --she finally moved from that property because of the 'hauntings', but a neighbor down the street from her told her that he was there when they uncovered the burials and it creeped him out--he said it was like 'something not of this world" and when she pressed him for more info, he would not say anymore. It really disturbed him.
I believe the whole UFO phenoman is a modern form of attempt of fallen angels trying to breed nephilim again.

A few yrs ago, there was this lady and her husband who come to Mountain View every year to play music on the square. I didn't know her too well but happen to give her a flute that I didn't have much use for. In response, she invited me to come visit them up in Indiana and all at once I felt a check in my SPirit. Something wasn't right and felt creepy. I felt the Lord telling me not to go--there was soemthing but I didn't know what it was--but I knew it was occultic in nature and not spiritually safe for me. Well, just recently I found out that the woman and her daughter had had an 'alien abduction' and not only that, but her daughter was impregnated and gave birth to a 'demon possessed baby'. I'm just quoting what was told to me. and that whereever they went, the 'aliens' followed them. There was no way getting away from them. Anyway.....
Native Americans have stories of doing battle with giants who were cannibals. The Pauites in Nevada dealt with 'red headed' giants with double rows of teeth.
 
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mumluvsherboys

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Another thing, when the nephilim--offspring of fallen angels and human women, died, they became the demons. Demons are not fallen angels, they are the dead nephilim.
I've been reading up on the subject for some time. I live in a particular county in the Ozarks and happened to have two totally different people confirm to me that several years ago, archaelogists(before it was against the law to excavated Native burials) excavated and uncovered 8 to 9 ft tall human skeletons here in the county I live in!! The second person who confirmed this to me, told me that where she was living at the time, had demonic stuff going on--'hauntings' --she finally moved from that property because of the 'hauntings', but a neighbor down the street from her told her that he was there when they uncovered the burials and it creeped him out--he said it was like 'something not of this world" and when she pressed him for more info, he would not say anymore. It really disturbed him.
I believe the whole UFO phenoman is a modern form of attempt of fallen angels trying to breed nephilim again.

A few yrs ago, there was this lady and her husband who come to Mountain View every year to play music on the square. I didn't know her too well but happen to give her a flute that I didn't have much use for. In response, she invited me to come visit them up in Indiana and all at once I felt a check in my SPirit. Something wasn't right and felt creepy. I felt the Lord telling me not to go--there was soemthing but I didn't know what it was--but I knew it was occultic in nature and not spiritually safe for me. Well, just recently I found out that the woman and her daughter had had an 'alien abduction' and not only that, but her daughter was impregnated and gave birth to a 'demon possessed baby'. I'm just quoting what was told to me. and that whereever they went, the 'aliens' followed them. There was no way getting away from them. Anyway.....
Native Americans have stories of doing battle with giants who were cannibals. The Pauites in Nevada dealt with 'red headed' giants with double rows of teeth.

Although interesting and rather frightening, I find it hard to believe. I believe something was going on as God was warning you, but I do not believe these kind of things are happening beyond imaginations. God bless you.
 
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SummaScriptura

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Yes, the Nephilim are the same as the Watchers mentioned in more detail in Enoch.

Actually, according to Enoch, the "Watchers" were initially good angels, but fell through lust and intermarriage with mankind. They were fallen angels. The Nephilim were their illegitimate offspring. The Nephilim never fell but were born fallen.

Starcrystal said:
They are also connected with the Summerian "gods." I don't have all the names now, nor would I wish to list some of them as there were some bad guys. However, rather than categorizing all "Nephilim" as evil, we must consider that some though they initially rebelled with Lucifer, also left Lucifer to come to earth and live on earth a more "normal" life.

According to Enoch, the Watchers did not rebel with Lucifer but at a later time in "the days of Jared" the father of Enoch. The Nephilim never rebelled; being born bad they were committed to evil at all times.
Starcrystal said:
Of course some corrupted their spouses & offspring as described by Enoch, but others sought only peace, and they also sought repentance.

There is no biblical or apochryphal record of any Nephilim who sought peace and repentance. There is a passage in Enoch wherein the Watchers evince regret and seek forgiveness for themselves and long-life for their progeny. Neither request was granted, God did not grant them repentance. That is the special gift offerred only to the children of men.

Addendum:
Last night I read "The Book of the Giants" as translated in The Dead Sea Scrolls - Revised Edition: A New Translation. Well, its some fragments of the book anyway. In it there is dialog of some Nephilim recorded (by Enoch presumably). Apparently, some Nephilim are receiving visions in dreams about the judgment of the world and they are full of fear. They send for Enoch to interpret the dreams for them. There is fear and trembling and regret in evidence in the Nephilim, but nothing one could remotely construe as biblical repentance.

Addendum 2: One Nephil's name is Gilgamesh. Think about it. Gen. 6's "Mighty men of old" and all...
 
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dimwhitt

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if Jesus said that angels do not marry nor are they given in marraige, then how can angels have sex with human woman?

sex is indicative of the created animal world (of which we are a part) it is not indicative of spiritual creations

how can spirits have sex with real people
Have we been watching "Ghost" with Demi Moore and Patrick Swazye???
 
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SummaScriptura

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if Jesus said that angels do not marry nor are they given in marraige, then how can angels have sex with human woman?

sex is indicative of the created animal world (of which we are a part) it is not indicative of spiritual creations

how can spirits have sex with real people
Have we been watching "Ghost" with Demi Moore and Patrick Swazye???

The quote by Jesus in the NT is here, "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." (Matthew 22:30) The words of Christ, "but are like angels in heaven" seems reminiscent of a passage in Enoch, when God says to the sinning angels, "I have not made for you any wives, for spiritual beings have their home in heaven." (Enoch 15:8). Was Jesus alluding to this teaching in Enoch? In either passage emphasis is about there being no marriage in heaven, this is not an instruction about the corporeality of angels. Jesus' comment is concerning the normal state of affairs in heaven --in heaven angels are not given in marriage. The Book of Enoch does not state otherwise.

Nevertheless, it is certainly true, Enoch paints a much more "colorful" picture of angelology than we're used to in our exposure to western ideas of 'systematic theology'. Consider the following differences in angelology between the Book of Enoch and western theological thinking:

1. In western theology, (not the Bible, mind you) the angels are now impeccable, they were tested once at the fall of Lucifer; those who fell with Lucifer are now demons and those who stood against temptation have passed their test and are now impeccable.

In Enoch, angels are not currently above sinning. Subsequent to any previous fall, there have been other 'falls' of angels or falls of groups of angels. Examples are, the crisis in the 'days of Jared' when 200 angels came down to earth and took the daughters of men for wives, thus defiling themselves. Also, in taking a tour of heaven, Enoch is shown at least two other groups of angels, already being punished; In 18:16, Enoch sees 7 angels being punished because, "they did not come forth at their appointed times". In 21:4, he sees another group also being punished, when he inquires about them, Enoch in effect is told, "that's not for you to know".

Perhaps most startling is this, Enoch predicts other angels will fall in the future and a crisis similar to that in Genesis 6 will again come about on earth, Enoch in 39:1-2, "And it shall come to pass in those days that elect and holy children will descend from the high heaven, and their seed will become one with the children of men. And in those days Enoch received books of zeal and wrath, and books of disquiet and expulsion. And mercy shall not be accorded to them, saith the Lord of Spirits."

2. In western theology we are given the general idea that the angels are so aware of God's doings that they are fully cognizant of His plan for the ages. In Enoch we are given a picture that the angels, though they are in the presence of God, are not privy to all, and are learners in much the same way as mankind; there is much they do not know. Of the angels who fell in the days of Jared, God says, Enoch in 16:3, "You have been in heaven, but all the mysteries had not yet been revealed to you, and you knew worthless ones, and these in the hardness of your hearts you have made known to the women, and through these mysteries women and men work much evil on earth."

And of the good angels He says, Enoch in 108:7, "For some of them are written and inscribed above in the heaven, in order that the angels may read them and know that which shall befall the sinners."

3. Western theology, under the influence of Greek ideas of angels and the nature of spirit, eschews any possibility of angelic carnality and corporeality. This stands in stark contrast to previous tradition and the beliefs of Jews and Christians in the first century. A number of books, fragments of which were recovered from the Dead Sea caves, notably, The Book of the Giants, The Book of Jubilees, The Book of Enoch and The Genesis Apochryphon, know anything of such a problem. In fact, the picture now emerging from the corpus of documentary evidence in the DSS, is revealing a Judaism in the time of Christ which evinced no theological barriers to the possibility of angelic carnality. In that theological milieu then, it is significant that Jesus made no effort to disabuse people of the idea angels could be carnal.

These three items taken together paint a very different angelology than that of which Augustine would likely approve. Enoch's book portrays angels to be able to fall from grace, limited in their knowledge and capable of carnality.

I will point out one other item of interest at this point, imo, the Bible neither endorses the ideas assumed in the angelology of western theology, nor does the Bible contradict the ideas (apparently common) in the angelology of Judaism in Jesus' day.
 
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dimwhitt

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these texts are not once quoted in the NT or the church fathers unless they were commenting on them or refuting them
on the other hand
one can virtually reconstruct the entire NT from quotes by the church fathers of the 1st and 2nd century - 19 men & 30,000 quotations - not one from the apocrapha

I hope u did not learn ur angelology from the Baptist
 
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SummaScriptura

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these texts are not once quoted in the NT or the church fathers unless they were commenting on them

That's a pretty unfair thresshold to hold any book to; "they never quote them unless they comment on them"?!?!

dimwhitt said:
or refuting them

This does not sound like a refutation:

Tertullian said:
Chapter III
"I am aware that the Scripture of Enoch, which has assigned this order (of action) to angels, is not received by some, because it is not admitted into the Jewish canon either. I suppose they did not think that, having been published before the deluge, it could have safely survived that world-wide calamity, the abolisher of all things. If that is the reason (for rejecting it), let them recall to their memory that Noah, the survivor of the deluge, was the great-grandson of Enoch himself; and he, of course, had heard and remembered, from domestic renown and hereditary tradition, concerning his own great-grandfather's "grace in the sight of God," and concerning all his preachings; since Enoch had given no other charge to Methuselah than that he should hand on the knowledge of them to his posterity. Noah therefore, no doubt, might have succeeded in the trusteeship of (his) preaching; or, had the case been otherwise, he would not have been silent alike concerning the disposition (of things) made by God, his Preserver, and concerning the particular glory of his own house.

"If (Noah) had not had this (conservative power) by so short a route, there would (still) be this (consideration) to warrant28 our assertion of (the genuineness of) this Scripture: he could equally have renewed it, under the Spirit's inspiration,29 after it had been destroyed by the violence of the deluge, as, after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian storming of it, every document30 of the Jewish literature is generally agreed to have been restored through Ezra.

"But since Enoch in the same Scripture has preached likewise concerning the Lord, nothing at all must be rejected by us which pertains to us; and we read that "every Scripture suitable for edification is divinely inspired.31 By the Jews it may now seem to have been rejected for that (very) reason, just like all the other (portions) nearly which tell of Christ. Nor, of course, is this fact wonderful, that they did not receive some Scriptures which spake of Him whom even in person, speaking in their presence, they were not to receive. To these considerations is added the fact that Enoch possesses a testimony in the Apostle Jude."

Tertullian, "On Female Fashion" I, II and III


dimwhitt said:
on the other hand one can virtually reconstruct the entire NT from quotes by the church fathers of the 1st and 2nd century - 19 men & 30,000 quotations - not one from the apocrapha

How about this one:
http://www.summascriptura.com/html/Enoch_1_RHC_001.09.html
Its quoted in Jude. There are other references to Enoch in the New Testament as well.

dimwhitt said:
I hope u did not learn ur angelology from the Baptist
Which Baptist? John?
 
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LoG

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these texts are not once quoted in the NT or the church fathers unless they were commenting on them or refuting them
on the other hand

Jude 1:14-15 [14] Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, [15] to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."



The Book of Enoch was extant centuries before the birth of Christ and yet is considered by many to be more Christian in its theology than Jewish. It was considered scripture by many early Christians. The earliest literature of the so-called "Church Fathers" is filled with references to this mysterious book. The early second century "Epistle of Barnabus" makes much use of the Book of Enoch. Second and Third Century "Church Fathers" like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origin and Clement of Alexandria all make use of the Book of Enoch. Tertullian (160-230 C.E) even called the Book of Enoch "Holy Scripture". The Ethiopic Church even added the Book of Enoch to its official canon. It was widely known and read the first three centuries after Christ. This and many other books became discredited after the Council of Laodicea. And being under ban of the authorities, afterwards it gradually passed out of circulation.
http://reluctant-messenger.com/enoch.htm
 
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SummaScriptura

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SummaScriptura

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The "Enoch" you're referring to here is a pseudepigraphal work. It should not be read as authoritative in any way.

I meant to ask you, how was it determined it is pseudepigraphal? Jude, the brother of Jesus deffinitely says it is not pseudepigraphal as he says they are the words of Enoch, the 7th from Adam. I think I'll go with Jude on this one!
 
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