Ghandi and Hitler

[Wolseley]

Well, viewing the question from a Catholic viewpoint (and no one is required to agree):

If Hitler's conversion was genuine, and he was truly sorry for his actions, and came to a real saving faith in Christ as Savior---yes, he could have been saved.

As for Ghandi, Catholic doctrine states that if someone does not know Christ through no fault of their own, but is doing their best to follow their concept of God to the utmost of their ability, then for all we know, God may be merciful to them and save them as well.

In either case, nobody can know for sure, because we don't have access to all the facts. Only God does, and He can be counted on to judge a soul with justice, mercy, and compassion. My own thought is that we'll probably be surprised who we find in heaven when we get there.

One final anecdote on Ghandi (and I haven't double-checked this, but I remember reading it years ago):

When he was in South Africa, he became curious about Christianity, and decided to visit a Christian church. The nice white folk tolerated his presence, but after the service was over, they suggested, "Why don't you try the 'colored' people's church?" Ghandi thanked them and left, and never returned to a Christian church, saying, "If there is a caste system among the Christians as well, then I might as well remain a Hindu."

Think about that for a while. Ghandi was practically a demigod among the people of India.....if he had become a Christian, how many Indian people might also have become Christians? But, because of racial prejudice among Christians, he didn't become a Christian.....and we'll never know how many other Christians might have come about through him as a result.

See what happens when we don't follow Our Master close enough? There is a profound lesson there, I think.

 

[seebs]

I've heard two different stories about Gandhi and Christians.

One is that he said that he was thinking about becoming a Christian, until he met one.

Another is that he was going to become a Christian, if he ever met one.

Both are, in the end, expressing the point of that story. As a group, Christians have not been very good witnesses for Christ. Many nonbelievers seem to be better followers of Christ than the most vocal proponents of Christianity. Maybe we need more Christ, and less ianity.

 

[wonder111]

Well, viewing the question from a Catholic viewpoint (and no one is required to agree):

If Hitler's conversion was genuine, and he was truly sorry for his actions, and came to a real saving faith in Christ as Savior---yes, he could have been saved.

As for Ghandi, Catholic doctrine states that if someone does not know Christ through no fault of their own, but is doing their best to follow their concept of God to the utmost of their ability, then for all we know, God may be merciful to them and save them as well.

In either case, nobody can know for sure, because we don't have access to all the facts. Only God does, and He can be counted on to judge a soul with justice, mercy, and compassion. My own thought is that we'll probably be surprised who we find in heaven when we get there.

One final anecdote on Ghandi (and I haven't double-checked this, but I remember reading it years ago):

When he was in South Africa, he became curious about Christianity, and decided to visit a Christian church. The nice white folk tolerated his presence, but after the service was over, they suggested, "Why don't you try the 'colored' people's church?" Ghandi thanked them and left, and never returned to a Christian church, saying, "If there is a caste system among the Christians as well, then I might as well remain a Hindu."

Think about that for a while. Ghandi was practically a demigod among the people of India.....if he had become a Christian, how many Indian people might also have become Christians? But, because of racial prejudice among Christians, he didn't become a Christian.....and we'll never know how many other Christians might have come about through him as a result.

See what happens when we don't follow Our Master close enough? There is a profound lesson there, I think.

excellent post Wolseley! Mother Theresa said some amazing things about her love helping Hindu's become better Hindu's and Muslim's better Muslim's etc. as love is what brings us closer to God.




Merry Christmas!

 

[wonder111]

I've heard two different stories about Gandhi and Christians.

One is that he said that he was thinking about becoming a Christian, until he met one.

Another is that he was going to become a Christian, if he ever met one.

Both are, in the end, expressing the point of that story. As a group, Christians have not been very good witnesses for Christ. Many nonbelievers seem to be better followers of Christ than the most vocal proponents of Christianity. Maybe we need more Christ, and less ianity.

another great post!

 

[sbbqb7n16]

Sounds like you need to read through Ecclesiastes. It's kinda wierd to me cause I actually did that last night just for the heck of it, and now I find this post, but yeah.

Evil and good men both die in the end, "this too is meaningless, a striving after the wind" (he says that a lot man lol) But in the end, the only thing that matters is to obey the command of God.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Jesus doesn't say that the work of God is to give to the poor, or to do any good "deed" really, but rather to believe in Him. As far as I know, neither man in either scenario did that. I could be wrong, but hey. People stop doing bad stuff all the time, but for different reasons. Repent of hitting their wife for fear of the courts. Does that earn you favor with God? No. Repent of hitting their wife for love of Christ? Yes that does.

John 14:15
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."

 

[Svt4Him]

I've heard two different stories about Gandhi and Christians.

One is that he said that he was thinking about becoming a Christian, until he met one.

Another is that he was going to become a Christian, if he ever met one.

Both are, in the end, expressing the point of that story. As a group, Christians have not been very good witnesses for Christ. Many nonbelievers seem to be better followers of Christ than the most vocal proponents of Christianity. Maybe we need more Christ, and less ianity.

Oh right. Both are expressing opposite sides of a story so you use it to say Christians are not good witnesses? And it's untrue, as Gandhi did have some things to say about Jesus. And a nonbeliever is not a follower of Christ, unless you mean they are good people. If so, I'd ask what a good person is.

Birds of a feather flock together, and opposites attract. These express the same points to the story, and that is don't spell Christmas with an x.

 

[seebs]

18"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So, there's a tunnel, with train tracks coming out of it, and every so often a train comes out, and smashes anything on the tracks, but people have lived there for a long time, so they sometimes build houses on the tracks anyway.

This guy comes along and says "don't build your houses here, they'll get smashed. Move them over here, and they'll be fine." Everyone wants to know who he is, that he can tell them where to build their houses, and he says "I'm the engineer who designed the tunnel. You can believe in me. Believe in me, and your houses will be fine. Disbelieve me, and your houses will be smashed."

Two thousand years later, they are building elaborate structures smack dab in the middle of the tracks in which to sing songs about how he was the engineer who built the tunnel, and if you truly believe that he was the engineer, your house will not get smashed. If a house is smashed, they say the person didn't really have faith that the man was the engineer who built the tunnel.

Sound familiar?

But Hitler will get what he deserves, so it's a hypothetical situation with no basis in reality.

And who are we to say what Hitler deserves, or claim we know what he will get? He once professed Christianity. It may have been for purely political reasons, or may not.

I think the reason being offered to reject Christianity is not the hypothetical, but the very real way in which Christians respond to it.

 

[seebs]

Oh right. Both are expressing opposite sides of a story so you use it to say Christians are not good witnesses?

No. Both are expressing the same thing - the behavior of Christians does not line up with that of Christ.

One story expresses this as "there are no Christians".
The other expresses it as "Christians are unlike Christ".

And it's untrue, as Gandhi did have some things to say about Jesus.

Yes, he did. He said "I like your Christ. I don't like your Christians." A statement I mostly agree with.

And a nonbeliever is not a follower of Christ, unless you mean they are good people. If so, I'd ask what a good person is.

A nonbeliever is not a follower of Christ, and no one who doesn't own a compass can be said to be going "west".

The spirit is obvious in many people, not all of whom make some claims about Jesus.

Birds of a feather flock together, and opposites attract. These express the same points to the story, and that is don't spell Christmas with an x.

Er, why not? That's a traditional Christian spelling, and has been for hundreds of years.

 

[sbbqb7n16]

Matthew 10:24-25
"A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. [size=-1]It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!"[/size]

Luke 6:39-46
And He also spoke a parable to them: "A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit? [size=-1]A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher. [size=-1]Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? [size=-1]Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye. [size=-1]For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. [size=-1]For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. [/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1]The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart. [size=-1]Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?"[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]

It seems to me that Jesus knew full-well that we could never be as good as He was. But personally I don't that Ghandi would have had a fit with Mother Theresa. It is enough for us to be like Jesus when fully trained. But what we have now is a bunch who aren't fully trained.

 

[Svt4Him]

You missed my point. You have two contradictory statements, yet both are from the same guy. Maybe both are made up? But attesting them to Gandhi somehow validates them?

"And who are we to say what Hitler deserves, or claim we know what he will get? He once professed Christianity. It may have been for purely political reasons, or may not."

Yes, Hitler must have been a Christian. Did you see the thread about fundie atheists here

 

[seebs]

You missed my point. You have two contradictory statements, yet both are from the same guy. Maybe both are made up? But attesting them to Gandhi somehow validates them?

While they may seem contradictory, they are expressing the same idea. I do grant that both are probably made up.

Yes, Hitler must have been a Christian. Did you see the thread about fundie atheists?

I didn't say he must have been - merely that he professed it once. Who are you to judge?

 

[Captain Jackson]

If God is all-powerful and loved everyone, then he would have saved everyone from their sin. He wouldn't have added the "you need to think this to be saved" clause to it.

 

[jbarcher]

Your argument would work, if we didn't have the ability to choose.

I can think of four possible worlds:

1. No world
2. Everyone does good and only good, mindless
3. No right or wrong
4. Our world. The choice to do good or evil.

IMO-it's just another strawman. I'm not sure where we get the straw from, but I hope it isn't my farm.

 

[Svt4Him]

I didn't say he must have been - merely that he professed it once. Who are you to judge?

I think I just posted this:

"Judge not lest you be judged."

The world often takes this verse out of context and uses it to accuse Christians of being "judgmental" when they speak of sin. In the context of the verse Jesus is telling His disciples not to judge one another, something the Bible condemns (Romans 14:10; James 4:11). In Luke 6:41,42 He speaks of seeing a speck in a brother’s eye. In John 7:24 He said, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." If someone steals, lies, commits adultery or murder, etc., the Christian can make a (righteous) moral judgment and say that the actions were morally wrong, and that these sins will have eternal consequences. Chuck Colson said, "True tolerance is not a total lack of judgment. It’s knowing what should be tolerated—and refusing to tolerate that which shouldn’t."

Hitler's motive was more for the evolution of man into the perfect being, which kind of sounds like...

 

[jbarcher]

Maybe we need more Christ, and less ianity.

I would say so.

---

Svt, it's great to see that other people have the proper teaching from that. And as I was reading this, I got the impression that seebs was talking about something else...not sure, but it doesn't seem to fit right. =\

 

[seebs]

The world often takes this verse out of context and uses it to accuse Christians of being "judgmental" when they speak of sin.

That may be, but it's irrelevant to my point.

I'm not questioning whether or not Hitler was sinful. I'm questioning how you can be so sure that he gets what everyone assumes he deserves; for instance, how you can know that he wasn't saved.

Hitler's motive was more for the evolution of man into the perfect being, which kind of sounds like...

Which sounds like an incredibly dishonest attempt on someone's part to make Hitler's moral failings have something to do with evolution.

1. Eugenics isn't evolution.
2. Hitler was psychotic, by nearly any standards.
3. On different occasions, he expressed both support and contempt for Christianity. He did at least have the words available to him.

 

[Sphere]

And people wonder why im atheist

Ohh yes.

 

[jbarcher]

IMO--I doubt there are many good reasons to be an atheist. I'm still not certain if, when I was an atheist, I had a good reason to be one. But bashing Christianity was a lot of fun...

 

[Captain Jackson]

IMO--I doubt there are many good reasons to be an atheist. I'm still not certain if, when I was an atheist, I had a good reason to be one. But bashing Christianity was a lot of fun...

I didn't know atheism was a membership organization. I thought you either believed there is a God, or you didn't.

 

[jbarcher]

I never said it was a membership organization. You must know where to get a lot of straw.