Get rid of 39 books of OT - or accept all as scripture - the Word of God for the saints?

[The Liturgist]

I haven't heard anyone say that we should get rid of over half the Bible. Who is saying this?

Marcion and the Gnostic heretics of antiquity, and various extreme postmodern theologians today who might start short of advocating it be discarded outright but question its relevance. Also Hitler, or more precisely, Dr. Goebbels, who orchestrated the unification of the Lutheran and Reformed churches that had been the national churches of Saxony, Prussia and other German states which had prior to 1871 been sovereign countries, into a single Reichskirche, and then within the Reichskirche worked to deprecate the Old Testament as Jewish and therefore evil, promoting an anti-Semitic “Positive Christianity.”

These actions along with other evil acts such as the gross human rights violations by the Nazis lead to the Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer organizing the Confessing Church, for which he received the crown of martyrdom from the infuriated Nazis in one of the concentration camps he detested.

 

[Guojing]

In Matt 28:19
Matt 28:
16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated to them. 17 And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.


That Is Christ telling His disciples to teach everyone else on planet Earth -- what He taught the disciples.

(Which is what Luke is doing for example - in the Gospel of Luke).

In Matt 19:28 we have -
27 Then Peter responded and said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?” 28 And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms on account of My name, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.

Peter is with the 12 in Matt 19 asking Christ about the group following Christ - and Christ said "to them" - those with Peter. But in Matt 28:19 the "them" are those who hear through the preaching of the disciples.


The them in Matt 28 is all who would be reached by Gospel preaching.

The "Them" in Matt 19:28 is the group standing their with Peter - but then it goes on to include all that make that same decision to forsake all and follow Christ.

So its up to one to decide when "them" only meant the 12, and which "them" can be further expanded?

 

[Studyman]

As someone once said, "Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." The SDA has no more real intent of obeying all of the OT commandments than any other denomination. Like all others, it picks and chooses which commandments it considers to be valid.

Finally, a truism regarding this world's religious franchises and sects. It seems the Pharisees also employed the same religious practice of "omitting" important teachings from the Law and Prophets they found beneath their honor. It seems though, that the Jesus of the Bible didn't partake of this popular religious tradition.

Matt. 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

And HE certainly honored and respected His Father where His Laws are concerned.

Matt. 19: 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Maybe instead of following the popular religious tradition of choosing one religion over another, from the dozens which exist in the world God placed us in, to define His righteousness for us, we should place our Faith in God to reveal Himself through our own Study.

It seems there is sufficient warning from Scripture about listening to the Gamaliel's, Valentinus, Calvins and Whites of this world. As Paul says, the Holy Scriptures which at his time were the Law and Prophets, contain all a man needs to, as the Jesus of the Bible teaches, "that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

 

[ViaCrucis]

Please quote that section of the OP that references a 19th century prophet (of any sort -- false or not)... or do you really claim to believe the scriptures quoted in the OP were all written by a 19th century prophet?

IF so - I find your logic tragically flawed at that point.

And I think you are being disingenuous. Because we both know that the whole raison d'etre of this thread is that Christians should be "following the 10 commandments", most importantly and most specifically observing the Sabbath. As your particular denomination teaches based on its, and your its founder's, teachings and interpretations. Based on the teachings of Ellen White your church teaches that Christians coming together and worshiping on the first day of the week is the mark of the beast, and that Christians are to observe the Sabbath in accordance with the Decalogue.

That's why this thread exists, that's why you started this thread.

So don't pretend like that's not the case. You and I both know why you started this thread and what the whole point of this thread's existence is: To argue that Christians are supposed to observe the Sabbath. Because that's what your church teaches, because that's what Ellen White taught.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Studyman]

And I think you are being disingenuous. Because we both know that the whole raison d'etre of this thread is that Christians should be "following the 10 commandments", most importantly and most specifically observing the Sabbath. As your particular denomination teaches based on its, and your its founder's, teachings and interpretations. Based on the teachings of Ellen White your church teaches that Christians coming together and worshiping on the first day of the week is the mark of the beast, and that Christians are to observe the Sabbath in accordance with the Decalogue.

That's why this thread exists, that's why you started this thread.

So don't pretend like that's not the case. You and I both know why you started this thread and what the whole point of this thread's existence is: To argue that Christians are supposed to observe the Sabbath. Because that's what your church teaches, because that's what Ellen White taught.

-CryptoLutheran

Not to defend or promote Adventist or Catholic philosophy as I am not a partaker of either religious business, but to make a point. The 7th Day Sabbath Commandment isn't a creation of Ellen White, it is a creation of the Christ, the Holy One of Israel who created all things at the behest of HIS Father. The same Christ that became a man in the person of Jesus, that is the Jesus of the Bible.

But the so called "Christian" sabbath, is a creation of Constantine and the early RCC. Catholic Preachers have bragged about this absolute and undeniable fact for centuries.

So it seems that yes, the thread is mostly about the Commandment most religions reject, in favor of a sabbath created by religious man.

It seems prudent to consider these things.

 

[The Liturgist]

But the so called "Christian" sabbath, is a creation of Constantine and the early RCC.

That is completely false; if you need proof, read the second century apologetic works of St. Justin Martyr, who attests to Sunday being the principle day of worship.

The Great Sabbath historically has been interpreted as referring to the repose of Christ in the Tomb.

However we are also drifting off topic, as none of this relates to the OP, and we are in General Theology and not Sabbath and the Law.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Not to defend or promote Adventist or Catholic philosophy as I am not a partaker of either religious business, but to make a point. The 7th Day Sabbath Commandment isn't a creation of Ellen White, it is a creation of the Christ, the Holy One of Israel who created all things at the behest of HIS Father. The same Christ that became a man in the person of Jesus, that is the Jesus of the Bible.

But the so called "Christian" sabbath, is a creation of Constantine and the early RCC. Catholic Preachers have bragged about this absolute and undeniable fact for centuries.

So it seems that yes, the thread is mostly about the Commandment most religions reject, in favor of a sabbath created by religious man.

It seems prudent to consider these things.

Constantine didn't create a "Christian Sabbath". He established the first day of the week as a weekend which businesses were to be closed. However this didn't apply to rural areas where people were farming or raising animals. It wasn't a sabbath, it was just a weekly holiday.

You can read the law for yourself in the Codex Justinianus, the Code of Justinian.

Christians have been gathering together for worship on the first day of the week since the beginning of the Church, as attested to by Scripture itself, and the witness of the ancient fathers. And Scripture also explicitly states that Christians are not beholden to observe the Sabbath.

Sabbatarians depend on the people they talk to to never having done any of their own research. I've done my research. I know what the Bible says, I know what the ancient fathers said, I know what the ancient primary sources say--I've read them with my own two eyes.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Studyman]

Constantine didn't create a "Christian Sabbath". He established the first day of the week as a weekend which businesses were to be closed. However this didn't apply to rural areas where people were farming or raising animals. It wasn't a sabbath, it was just a weekly holiday.

You can read the law for yourself in the Codex Justinianus, the Code of Justinian.

Christians have been gathering together for worship on the first day of the week since the beginning of the Church, as attested to by Scripture itself, and the witness of the ancient fathers. And Scripture also explicitly states that Christians are not beholden to observe the Sabbath.

Sabbatarians depend on the people they talk to to never having done any of their own research. I've done my research. I know what the Bible says, I know what the ancient fathers said, I know what the ancient primary sources say--I've read them with my own two eyes.

-CryptoLutheran

Actually the Corpus Juris Civilis wasn't even issued until 2 centuries after Constantine rejected the Sabbath Jesus walked in, and declared it obsolete, and replaced it with a high day popular with the sun worshippers of his time.

Catholicism has admitted to this from the beginning.

“It appeared an unworthy thing that . . . we should follow the practice of the Jews, who have impiously defiled their hands with enormous sin, and are, therefore, deservedly afflicted with blindness of soul . . . Let us then have nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd” Eusebius, Life of Constantine 3, chapter 18, quoted in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 1979, Vol. 1, pp. 524-525

“The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;… Therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their convocations upon the Sabbath in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council.” The Whole Works Of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX p. 416

I don't want to get away from the topic of the thread. But Paul promoted the study of the Holy Scriptures for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Not sure of the wisdom of trusting ancient Roman Emperors over the Spiritual Scriptures. I know a lot of religions do, but it's not for me.

 

[returntosender]

It would be interesting to read a revised addition, are you up for it? I'd buy. Seriously. It would be a lot easier to understand and live by. It's hard to see a loving God in the OT.

 

[returntosender]

I wonder if anyone has ever attempted it?

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Sabbatarians depend on the people they talk to to never having done any of their own research. I've done my research. I know what the Bible says, I know what the ancient fathers said, I know what the ancient primary sources say--I've read them with my own two eyes.

-CryptoLutheran

But did you Google why all of those can't be trusted?

 

[BobRyan]

In Luke 24 - Christ disguises Himself while walking with two disciples and teaches them the one-and-only Gospel of Gal 1:6-9 -- from "all the scriptures" (OT) before revealing Himself

Indeed. The reason why our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ wanted the Apostles focused on the Old Testament text was so they could fully appreciate who He was before He became known to them

He hides from them because He knew that as soon as they recognized Him they would be overjoyed and would not care a whit about all the Bible details - only that He was alive. He wanted them to focus on the supremacy of scripture to determine truth vs error - since in the future He would not be making instaneous visible appearances walking with disciples etc. They must learn to have faith in the word of God.

in the breaking of bread, and later invited the Apostles to see his wounds,

Yes - but it was not looking at the bread that convinced them -- it was looking away from the bread and looking directly at His wounds in His hands, then hearing that familiar voice.

Evangelism today is done through preaching of the word of God - scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

Constantine didn't create a "Christian Sabbath". He established the first day of the week as a weekend which businesses were to be closed. However this didn't apply to rural areas where people were farming or raising animals. It wasn't a sabbath, it was just a weekly holiday.

You can read the law for yourself in the Codex Justinianus, the Code of Justinian.

A bit off topic - but for the sake of reply:


Justinian and Constantine were not the same person.

Constantine’s Conversion to Christianity

Constantine I (Flavius Valerius Constantinus) was Roman emperor from 306-337 CE and is known to history as Constantine the Great for his conversion to Christianity in 312 CE and his subsequent Christianization...

www.worldhistory.org

Constantine converted to Christianity in 312 A.D.
Edict of Milan was issued in 313 CE - legalized and protected Christianity

March 7, 321, Roman Emperor Constantine I decreed that dies Solis Invicti (‘sun-day,’ or Day of Sol Invictus, Roman God of the Sun) would be the Roman day of rest throughout the Roman Empire.

Similar to blue laws - about shops being closed on Sundays.

===============================
Chamber’s Encyclopedia says this:

“Unquestionably the first law, either ecclesiastical or civil, by which the Sabbatical observance of that Day is known to have been ordained, is the edict of Constantine, 321 A.D.iii

iii. “Sabbath,” Chamber’s Encyclopedia Volume 11 (1982): 401, as quoted in Bible Readings for the Home Circle revised edition (Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1920).

============================

Church Council of Laodicea (circa 364 AD):

“Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday (Sabbath), but shall work on that Day: but the Lord’s Day, they shall especially honour; and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ.iv​

​

iv. Rev. Charles Joseph Hefele, Henry N. Oxenham (trans.), A History of the Church Councils from 326 to 429 Volume 2 (Edinburgh: T. and T. Clark, 1896): 316.​

==============================
"Though Sol Invictus (meaning ‘The unconquered Sun’) was indeed a pagan Roman God, and had been featured on Roman coins, Constantine coopted this pagan heritage along with the Judeo-Christian following of the 10 Commandments by granting a day to honor God and rest for man. As the Roman Empire gradually converted to Christianity, Sunday became the natural day for the Sabbath and rest since Romans were already accustomed to Sunday as their day off."

Christians have been gathering together for worship on the first day of the week since the beginning of the Church

We see gathering "every Sabbath" for Gospel preaching in Acts 18:4 -- but not one text about "Gathering every week day 1 for gospel preaching"

Actually the Corpus Juris Civilis wasn't even issued until 2 centuries after Constantine rejected the Sabbath Jesus walked in, and declared it obsolete, and replaced it with a high day popular with the sun worshippers of his time.

Catholicism has admitted to this from the beginning.

“It appeared an unworthy thing that . . . we should follow the practice of the Jews, who have impiously defiled their hands with enormous sin, and are, therefore, deservedly afflicted with blindness of soul . . . Let us then have nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd” Eusebius, Life of Constantine 3, chapter 18, quoted in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 1979, Vol. 1, pp. 524-525

“The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;… Therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their convocations upon the Sabbath in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council.” The Whole Works Of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX p. 416

I don't want to get away from the topic of the thread. But Paul promoted the study of the Holy Scriptures for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Not sure of the wisdom of trusting ancient Roman Emperors over the Spiritual Scriptures. I know a lot of religions do, but it's not for me.

Thanks for posting that! Very good points

 

[BobRyan]

Neither, its not a binary choice.

We do not need to "get rid of the Old Testament books", its a literature that is useful for understanding the context of where Christianity came from.

We also do not need to accept it as instructions given to us

So then in 2 Tim 3:16 when Paul tells us it is to be used for instruction for doctrine etc we can just ignore that NT statement about the OT??

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

so then not just the OT text but also the NT text wherever it affirms that scripture is for doctrine and instruction? really?

 

[BobRyan]

And I think you are being disingenuous. Because we both know that the whole raison d'etre of this thread is that Christians should be "following the 10 commandments"

You might want to take the time to read the OP and the next post... before going off on a tangent.

...To argue that Christians are supposed to observe the Sabbath. Because that's what your church teaches, because that's what Ellen White taught.

-CryptoLutheran

hmm you seem to be on a one-track line of response.... no matter what the topic.

ON page one I reference several examples of OT texts accepted by almost all denominations. Are you intent on opposing all Christian denominations today?

 

[trophy33]

So then in 2 Tim 3:16 when Paul tells us it is to be used for instruction for doctrine etc we can just ignore that NT statement about the OT??

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

so then not just the OT text but also the NT text wherever it affirms that scripture is for doctrine and instruction? really?

Are multiple people using your account? You repeat the arguments that were already addressed recently (in various different threads), quite frequently.

As instructions given to Noah are not for you (you do not literally build an ark), as instructions given to Abraham to leave his home country are not literally for you, etc, so also instructions given to Israel are not for you. Are sacrificial rules still for you today?

So the verse you frequently repeat to prove your ideas does not work in that way - we would be under every sentence of the Old Testament till today, which is, of course, clearly not the case.

Edit: English

 

[Guojing]

Are multiple people using your account? You repeat the arguments that were already addressed recently (in various different threads), quite frequently.

Haha, nice!

 

[Studyman]

Are multiple people using your account? You repeat the arguments that were already addressed recently (in various different threads), quite frequently.

As instructions given to Noah are not for you (you do not literally build an ark), as instructions given to Abraham to leave his home country are not literally for you, etc, so also instructions given to Israel are not for you. Are sacrificial rules still for you today?

In your religion, is this Spiritual instruction from the same Christ? Does it not say the same thing? Did this Christ not become a man in the person of the Jesus of the Bible?

Gen. 12: 1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Matt. 16: 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

So the verse you frequently repeat to prove your ideas does not work in that way - we would be under every sentence of the Old Testament till today, which is, of course, clearly not the case.

It doesn't really matter what this world's religions teach, rather, what the scriptures teach. Paul believed all that was written in the Law and Prophets. He said it was written for our admonition, for "Our Sake's no doubt". As Examples for us, so we don't lust after disobedience as they lusted. He taught this to both Jew and Gentile years after the death and resurrection of the Christ of the Bible.

Your unbelief, indifference or lack of understanding doesn't make the Law and Prophets Void. Paul certainly disagrees with you.

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

There was no New Testament even existing at the time Paul wrote this.

What if Jesus and Paul are right, and it is you who may be mistaken? Surely something a man should consider, in my view.

 

[trophy33]

In your religion, is this Spiritual instruction from the same Christ? Does it not say the same thing? Did this Christ not become a man in the person of the Jesus of the Bible?

Gen. 12: 1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Matt. 16: 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.



It doesn't really matter what this world's religions teach, rather, what the scriptures teach. Paul believed all that was written in the Law and Prophets. He said it was written for our admonition, for "Our Sake's no doubt". As Examples for us, so we don't lust after disobedience as they lusted. He taught this to both Jew and Gentile years after the death and resurrection of the Christ of the Bible.

Your unbelief, indifference or lack of understanding doesn't make the Law and Prophets Void. Paul certainly disagrees with you.

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

There was no New Testament even existing at the time Paul wrote this.

What if Jesus and Paul are right, and it is you who may be mistaken? Surely something a man should consider, in my view.

As instructions given to Noah are not for you (you do not literally build an ark), as instructions given to Abraham to leave his home country are not literally for you, etc, so also instructions given to Israel are not for you. Are sacrificial rules still for you today?

 

[Studyman]

As instructions given to Noah are not for you (you do not literally build an ark), as instructions given to Abraham to leave his home country are not literally for you, etc, so also instructions given to Israel are not for you. Are sacrificial rules still for you today?

So you refuse to answer my questions. What a surprise.