Get rid of 39 books of OT - or accept all as scripture - the Word of God for the saints?

[BobRyan]

"Jesus loves me this I know - for the Bible tells me so" -


Some would argue we need to dump 39 books of the bible - since the rise of the NONES (those that walk away from religion) has risen to 20-29% in America these days - maybe we should should not tether Christianity to the Bible so closely. Allow for things to drop off -- like the entire OT or the Gospels before the cross or the creation week or ... (it is pretty much endless).

(For a video example of a guy slam-hammering the "Jesus loves Me..for the Bible tells me so" form of accepting the Bible -- see this post on this same page same thread #15 )

At the end of Matthew we find this statement in Matt 28

​

Matt 28:​

16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated to them. 17 And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”​

​

That Matt 28:19-20 statement is NOT of the form
"forget all that I have commanded you... from now on make up a new set of teachings"

Some will say to take the scissors out at the point of - these verses to divide OT and NT (OC and NC?)

Matthew 27:50​

Mark 15:37​

Luke 23:46​

John 19:30​

Such that following the teaching that find prior to that point is to choose to be under the Old Covenant rather than the New Covenant.

Which misses the point that Matt 1:1 is years AFTER the ascension of Christ and is in direct response to the Matt 28:20 command of Christ.

And in Matt 24 we have this

14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.​

​

Not some other gospel - but the one Jesus was preaching in Matt 24.

And so years LATER after the ascension of Christ - they are doing that very thing by writing the GOSPEL of Matt, Mark, Luke, John.

Heb 1 says that in the past God spoke through prophets but in this New Testament His SON came directly to Earth and spoke to us. I.E those Gospel accounts that some views are so anxious to distance themselves from.

John 17 Jesus said that He promised life not just to those who heard him then but to all who would believe through their word as eye witnesses of Christ and His teaching.

No wonder then in Luke 24 when Christ appears to His disciples on the road to Emaus - He does not reveal Himself directly to them. Rather "beginning with Moses and the prophets He

25 And then He said to them, “You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.​

In every case in the NEW Testament where we see the term "scriptures" it always includes all of the 39 books of the Hebrew Bible and in some cases it includes the NT Letters as we see in 2 Peter 3.

===================

In Genesis 1 - 3 we have the Bible teaching on marriage, on gender, on the weekly holy day, on the fall of mankind into sin, the need of the gospel , the doctrine on origins etc.

 

[trophy33]

Neither, its not a binary choice.

We do not need to "get rid of the Old Testament books", its a literature that is useful for understanding the context of where Christianity came from.

We also do not need to accept it as instructions given to us today, its not its purpose, its purpose was temporary - to close Israel under sin, till the coming of Christ, as Paul says in Galatians.

 

[BobRyan]

Neither, its not a binary choice.

We do not need to "get rid of the Old Testament books", its a literature that is useful for understanding the context of where Christianity came from.

Not according to 1 Cor 10.
6 Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they indeed craved them. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.” 8 Nor are we to commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9 Nor are we to put the Lord to the test, as some of them did, and were killed by the snakes. 10 Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were killed by the destroyer. 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let the one who thinks he stands watch out that he does not fall.

Not according to 2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The term "scripture" in the NT always includes ALL 39 books of the OT - It is never relegated to 'non-biblical literature... of historical interest only".

Eph 6:
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise: 3 “that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.”

Not merely 'historical interest' in Eph 6 - but commandment for NT saints.

James 2 uses it in the same way
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”(Lev 19:18) you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,”(Ex 20) also said, “Do not murder.” (Ex 20) Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN"

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy

We also do not need to accept it as instructions given to us today,

Your suggestion is out of harmony with the NT texts just quoted - but of course you free will and can ignore all of the OT and NT that you wish to hold to your POV.

 

[trophy33]

Not according to 1 Cor 10.
6 Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they indeed craved them. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.” 8 Nor are we to commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9 Nor are we to put the Lord to the test, as some of them did, and were killed by the snakes. 10 Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were killed by the destroyer. 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let the one who thinks he stands watch out that he does not fall.

Not according to 2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The term "scripture" in the NT always includes ALL 39 books of the OT - It is never relegated to 'non-biblical literature... of historical interest only".

Eph 6:
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise: 3 “that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.”

Not merely 'historical interest' in Eph 6 - but commandment for NT saints.

James 2 uses it in the same way
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”(Lev 19:18) you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,”(Ex 20) also said, “Do not murder.” (Ex 20) Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.




Your suggestion is out of harmony with the NT texts just quoted - but of course you free will and can ignore all of the OT and NT that you wish to hold to your POV.

I am pretty sure you ignore 99% of instructions given in the OT, because they simply are not applicable in the modern society and/or to Christians.

But you try to put us all under them, like if they were still valid, anyway.

We can go there and back again in many ways and circles, but in the end, its only the Sabbath commandment your Seventh Day Adventist church wants us all to keep, not the whole OT. And the reason for that is solely the prophetic vision of Ellen White you follow as a prophet, because she saw it "glowing more, above all other commandments".

 

[BobRyan]

I am pretty sure you ignore 99% of instructions given in the OT, because they simply are not applicable in the modern society.

Not in regard to the moral law of God.

1 John 3:4 the moral law of God defines what sin IS - even in the NT

The sacred events recorded in the Gospels and in the OT are real - literal and instructive.
From the gospels we have the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ and His ascension into heaven.
From the OT we have God as Creator and the Law of God that defines what sin is as Paul admits in Rom 3:19-20
We also have the teaching of Christ in both "OT an NT" since in Hebrews 8 even Paul admits it is CHRIST speaking at Sinai -

 

[trophy33]

Not in regard to the moral law of God.

1 John 3:4 the moral law of God defines what sin IS - even in the NT

The sacred events recorded in the Gospels and in the OT are real - literal and instructive.
From the gospels we have the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ and His ascension into heaven.
From the OT we have God as Creator and the Law of God that defines what sin is as Paul admits in Rom 3:19-20
We also have the teaching of Christ in both "OT an NT" since in Hebrews 8 even Paul admits it is CHRIST speaking at Sinai -

Let me guess - the moral laws are the same we all follow, plus Sabbath.

No need to dance around, this is neither the first thread about this topic, nor the last one.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Not according to 1 Cor 10.
6 Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they indeed craved them. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.” 8 Nor are we to commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9 Nor are we to put the Lord to the test, as some of them did, and were killed by the snakes. 10 Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were killed by the destroyer. 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let the one who thinks he stands watch out that he does not fall.

Not according to 2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The term "scripture" in the NT always includes ALL 39 books of the OT - It is never relegated to 'non-biblical literature... of historical interest only".

Eph 6:
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise: 3 “that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.”

Not merely 'historical interest' in Eph 6 - but commandment for NT saints.

James 2 uses it in the same way
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”(Lev 19:18) you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,”(Ex 20) also said, “Do not murder.” (Ex 20) Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN"

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy


Your suggestion is out of harmony with the NT texts just quoted - but of course you free will and can ignore all of the OT and NT that you wish to hold to your POV.

Is this about promoting sabbitarianism?

 

[BobRyan]

Is this about promoting sabbitarianism?

"Honor father and mother" IN Eph 6 has nothing to do with the Sabbath.

this is about showing how NT authors refer to the OT texts as scripture that had authority for NT saints.

 

[trophy33]

this is about showing how NT authors refer to the OT texts as scripture that had authority for NT saints.

But you accept the authority of the OT texts for few moral laws, only. You ignore the vast majority of the OT instructions.

So, you use the NT verses like "all Scripture is God-breathed" for defending... just few OT scriptures, the ones you personally like. Its not too consistent.

 

[Ceallaigh]

"Honor father and mother" IN Eph 6 has nothing to do with the Sabbath.

this is about showing how NT authors refer to the OT texts as scripture that had authority for NT saints.

Usually your speil below is about sabbitarianism.

BobRyan said:

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN"

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy

 

[HTacianas]

"Jesus loves me this I know - for the Bible tells me so" -
Some would argue that since the rise of the NONES (those that walk away from religion) has risen to 20-29% in America these days - maybe we should should not tether Christianity to the Bible so closely. Allow for things to drop off -- like the entire OT or the Gospels before the cross or the creation week or ... (it is pretty much endless).

At the end of Matthew we find this statement in Matt 28

​

Matt 28:​

16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated to them. 17 And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”​

​

Not "forget all that I have commanded you... from now on make up a new set of teachings"
And in Matt 24

14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.​

​

Not some other gospel - but the one Jesus was preaching in Matt 24.

And so years LATER after the ascension of Christ - they are doing that very thing by writing the GOSPEL of Matt, Mark, Luke, John.

Heb 1 says that in the past God spoke through prophets but in this New Testament His SON came directly to Earth and spoke to us. I.E those Gospel accounts that some views are so anxious to distance themselves from.

John 17 Jesus said that He promised life not just to those who heard him then but to all who would believe through their word as eye witnesses of Christ and His teaching.

No wonder then in Luke 24 when Christ appears to His disciples on the road to Emaus - He does not reveal Himself directly to them. Rather "beginning with Moses and the prophets He

25 And then He said to them, “You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.​

Some will say to take the scissors out at the point of -

Matthew 27:50​

Mark 15:37​

Luke 23:46​

John 19:30​

Such that following the teaching that find prior to that point is to choose to be under the Old Covenant rather than the New Covenant.

Which misses the point that Matt 1:1 is years AFTER the ascension of Christ and is in direct response to the Matt 28:20 command of Christ.

In every case in the NEW Testament where we see the term "scriptures" it always includes all of the 39 books of the Hebrew Bible and in some cases it includes the NT Letters as we see in 2 Peter 3.

I'm not certain what your point is precisely, but all those teachings of Jesus are what Christianity has held to since the beginning. It seems you've been hearing from some that those teachings have somehow been ignored, forming some "other gospel". If that is the case, you've stumbled across the path to the truth. Know that anyone telling you anything different from what you've found out yourself, they are quite frankly wrong. And there's a lot of them out there.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Not in regard to the moral law of God.

1 John 3:4 the moral law of God defines what sin IS - even in the NT

The sacred events recorded in the Gospels and in the OT are real - literal and instructive.
From the gospels we have the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ and His ascension into heaven.
From the OT we have God as Creator and the Law of God that defines what sin is as Paul admits in Rom 3:19-20
We also have the teaching of Christ in both "OT an NT" since in Hebrews 8 even Paul admits it is CHRIST speaking at Sinai -

So what moral laws has Christianity discarded? What commandment of Christ has been done away with, and in what way?

 

[BobRyan]

So what moral laws has Christianity discarded? What commandment of Christ has been done away with, and in what way?

The OP asks the question "SHOULD WE" toss all that out so as to rescue ourselves from the problem of NONEs - that exploding 20 to 29% In America of people deconverting , people distancing from Christianity.

Deconversions driven by worldly chatter of the form

1. Evolution is the true doctrine on origins - not Genesis 1-2 creation week
2. Woke-ism is the true doctrine on gender, and marriage

Many things in scripture do not fit the popular myths and trends so some suggest that we amputate large sections of the Bible from Christianity as if it might rescue us from that trend of the exploding sector of 'NONE's

 

[Ceallaigh]

The OP asks the question "SHOULD WE" toss all that out so as to rescue ourselves from the problem of NONEs - that exploding 20 to 29% In America of people deconverting , people distancing from Christianity.

Deconversions driven by worldly chatter of the form

1. Evolution is the true doctrine on origins - not Genesis 1-2 creation week
2. Woke-ism is the true doctrine on gender, and marriage

Many things in scripture do not fit the popular myths and trends so some suggest that we amputate large sections of the Bible from Christianity as if it might rescue us from that trend of the exploding sector of 'NONE's

I can't really make sense of that. How would Christianity be rescued by tossing out a huge chunk of Christianity? All that would accomplish is replacing Christianity with quasi-christianity or pseudo-christianity.

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1 John 2:19

Perhaps God is cleaning house to where only the truly faithful remain. SDA is always saying God set aside a remnant, so what's the problem from that perspective?

 

[BobRyan]

I'm not certain what your point is precisely, but all those teachings of Jesus are what Christianity has held to since the beginning.

True.

But some popular preachers in the modern day - argue that "Jesus loves me this I know - for the BIBLE tells me so is a huge mistake" and has resulted in a bunch "NONE"s rising because people like Sam Harris (an atheist) keep attacking the Bible and convincing young adults to disconnect from the church.

IN that video - we find this:

notice this at the MM:SS minute:second point in that video. (Not an example of my view but an example of the view I am exposing for correction)

04:20 “Jesus Loves me this I know’ – kids song. “for the Bible tells me so” – this is where our trouble began. Implication is that the “Bible is a reason – the reason to BELIEVE” … “If the Bible says it that – settles it” – does not survive college. Mom dad, aunt pastor surprised.​

05:28 the problem with that is “IF the Bible is the foundation of our FAITH then as the Bible goes - so goes our faith”​

I am willing to say "yes" -- my faith is in fact based on the Bible - the reliability of the text and its teaching about God, origins, Law, grace, salvation etc.

 

[BobRyan]

Perhaps God is cleaning house to where only the truly faithful remain. SDA is always saying God set aside a remnant, so what's the problem from that perspective?

I don't have a problem saying that something false is being given out and Christians need to be prepared to respond to it.

No doubt Rev 12 points to a remnant - but I agree with you that we would expect some sort of error to arise from time to time within the realm of existing popular Christian leaders.

As for the remnant idea in the NT
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

But you accept the authority of the OT texts for few moral laws, only.

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN"

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy

Is it "almost all of Christianity" that you are objecting to when it comes to those who affirm The TEN??

Is it your claim that if one is accept that it is sin to take God's name in vain - then for sure they should offer animal sacrifices No matter what Heb 7 and Heb 10:4-12 say to the contrary?

My point on this thread is that NT authors accept OT scripture as applicable to the saints

You ignore the vast majority of the OT instructions.

The thread establishes the fact that NT Authors continually appeal to the authority of "scripture" which was in their day primarily the OT.

Are you thinking that the NT Authors were in error?

So, you use the NT verses like "all Scripture is God-breathed" for defending... just few OT scriptures

Are you preparing to use 2 Tim 3:16 to support the continued authority of more scriptures than you think I do -- care to give us an example?

As the Baptist Confession of Faith section 19 notes --
1. Some laws were civil laws under the theocracy and when the theocracy ended they too ended
2. Some Laws were ceremonial relating to sacrifices and offerings that end at the cross as we see in Heb 10:4-12

When you make that accusation -- do you come up with some list that you feel has been left out by mistake??

 

[trophy33]

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN"

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy

Is it "almost all of Christianity" that you are objecting to when it comes to those who affirm The TEN??

Is it your claim that if one is accept that it is sin to take God's name in vain - then for sure they should offer animal sacrifices No matter what Heb 7 and Heb 10:4-12 say to the contrary?

My point on this thread is that NT authors accept OT scripture as applicable to the saints


The thread establishes the fact that NT Authors continually appeal to the authority of "scripture" which was in their day primarily the OT.

Are you thinking that the NT Authors were in error?


Are you preparing to use 2 Tim 3:16 to support the continued authority of more scriptures than you think I do -- care to give us an example?

As the Baptist Confession of Faith section 19 notes --
1. Some laws were civil laws under the theocracy and when the theocracy ended they too ended
2. Some Laws were ceremonial relating to sacrifices and offerings that end at the cross as we see in Heb 10:4-12

When you make that accusation -- do you come up with some list that you feel has been left out by mistake??

What are you trying to say?

The Old Testament Scriptures are many books with hundreds of commandments. 2 Tim 3:16 does not say "Only ten commandments are God-breathed". You cannot use this verse for adding just keeping the Sabbath to Christianity.

Christianity finds the OT books useful (thats why we do not throw them away), but not authoritative in commandments that are discontinued.

 

[Ceallaigh]

What are you trying to say?

Same question.

 

[BobRyan]

What are you trying to say?

The Old Testament Scriptures are many books with hundreds of commandments.

The New Testament is many books with 100's more commandments than the OT. What is your point??

2 Tim 3:16 does not say "Only ten commandments are God-breathed"

True - it says "all scripture" - and that is specifically including the scriptures known to Timothy prior to being converted to Christianity according to Paul in 2 Tim 3: 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus

Context is king when it comes to interpretation

. You cannot use this verse for adding just keeping the Sabbath to Christianity.

1. I never say that here and have not said it anywhere else. Have you read the OP?
2. My point is that the OT text itself is accepted by NT writers as scripture for NT saints. Have you read the first page?

2 Tim 3:
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.