Get a divorce or separation?

[Root of Jesse]

Root of Jesse, why couldn't you have been here earlier? You're so much better at explaining this than me. A lot of the things I said sounded like some hard core legalistic nonsense!

Well, the truth is that it is hard core and leglaistic. But as you can see, I had to pastor my wife when she went through it, with all the bitterness and anguish. She didn't understand it herself, and wondered at the legitimacy of her children.

Also, I'm hoping to discern for the diaconate soon, and need to know how to explain stuff.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Wow...

However at this point, I have to say that my personal opinion does not coincide with Rome all the time. At the same time I find Constantinople too leniant allowing up to three divorces. As such I take the position of Alexandria which is mid-ground on this matter.

I understand. Rome's view, however, is to try to keep more of the flock in the sheepfold. They're very lenient. IT's up to the faithful to understand what annulment is and how it can be used. In the OP's case, she is , objectively, on solid footing to seek it.

We all know folks who go through programs to get the credential. Be it in business, RCIA, or whatever. I know folks who went through RCIA, got the whole works on Easter Vigil, and never saw them again. So people will use the rules to their advantage regarding something like annulment. God will be the ultimate judge.

 

[Tigg]

I keep forgetting im on the catholic forums, when Im not even catholic XD

Lol! Welcome.

 

[MKJ]

In a lot of places, the concept of "annulment" has been diluted to a different form of marriage rather than a proper null and void thing hence the whole Civil Divorce thing.

If you do get a civil divorce, but not an annulment, you cannot get remarried until your spouse die. That kind of defeats the purpose of acknowledging a civil divorce, isn't it? So instead of divorce, it's treated more like a legal separation, which essentially is a divorce all in, but name. Yes, we do have to be pragmatic at times, but that does not mean we lower our standards. It's just a matter of accomodating different pastoral needs. Regardless, I don't think that's really recognizing a divorce as being legitimate, but rather accomodating the current situation.

Yes - in the case of civil divorce, it is seen similarly to a legal separation. But it is properly called divorce - that is what it is.

I think that there is a bit of a reaction against the word divorce - people are told "Catholics don't believe in divorce". But I think that is actually an attempt to simplify the discussion. In fact they do believe in legal divorce. They do not believe in remarriage unless the first one was ruled invalid.

As far as annulments - well, ever since they have been opened up to all sorts of things (like a spouse using contraception) I think it is actually quite difficult to make any real differentiation between the Catholic and civil view. The way it is treated now, many non-Catholics who divorce would be granted annulments if they wanted them. And it is reasonable for any married person to wonder if they actually managed to have a valid marriage - the bar is so low that even fairly normal doubts or immaturity or something like undiagnosed mental illness could be reason for an invalid marriage. Even if later they overcame those limitations and became committed in a mature way, the original lack would mean the marriage was invalid.

I thought it was actually a bit ironic that a prayer to St Monica was included in this discussion (I do realize it was given to be helpful and am sure it would be). But i could not see St Monica contemplating leaving her marriage because her husband did not share her Catholic commitment to have children.

He was, after all, a pagan, adulterous, prone to anger, and tried to frustrate her activities as a Christian.

How is it possible to say so easily that a marriage to someone not living up to his Catholic calling is a barrier to a Catholic life, when it was by having such a husband that St Monica was able to live out her Christian vocation?

 

[Tigg]

I think right NOW-- my current focus is to meet with a priest I trust who can guide me properly. I am not about making fast decisions or decisions I will deeply regret.

I appreciate the time and willingness from everyone to hear me out and offer advice.

God bless you and your husband. You are an intlligent lady with a problem. I salute you. I hope you do see your priest, talk again with your hubby, and pray that things will be worked out. May God bless you in your endeavors.

 

[dusky_tresses]

I didn't expect my questions to spark this kind of debate. I have been reading more responses.

There is a reason why I mentioned divorce and separation in the first place. I have been told by many women that I don't have a "real" marriage. I've also been told that I need to just leave because nothing I've done has made any difference. The people I've talked to are very much under the impression that Catholics have to have children in order to have a real marriage (unless you have infertility). I guess the women I've talked to about this can't understand how I can stand being childless at my age, so they've been the ones trying to get me to leave my marriage. That's why instead of asking them, I asked HERE knowing the nature of this forum.

I hadn't thought about consulting with a priest to be honest, and that is more preferable than just packing up and leaving. As I've said, I am not divorce-happy. From what I understand, annulments should only be in play when there were serious invalidations to the marriage and marriages are presumed to be valid anyway.

 

[WisdomTree]

So after 142 posts the conclusion is this (which we can all agree to): go talk to your priest. He will give you sound advice whether you like it or not.

 

[Tigg]

So after 142 posts the conclusion is this (which we can all agree to): go talk to your priest. He will give you sound advice whether you like it or not.

Lol! Sounds bout right to me! God bless.

 

[dusky_tresses]

So after 142 posts the conclusion is this (which we can all agree to): go talk to your priest. He will give you sound advice whether you like it or not.

I was merely addressing the concerns another poster had about my mentioning divorce. I just hope the "sound advice" I receive isn't divorce, as priests HAVE been known to tell women that.

 

[dusky_tresses]

I thought it was actually a bit ironic that a prayer to St Monica was included in this discussion (I do realize it was given to be helpful and am sure it would be). But i could not see St Monica contemplating leaving her marriage because her husband did not share her Catholic commitment to have children.

He was, after all, a pagan, adulterous, prone to anger, and tried to frustrate her activities as a Christian.

How is it possible to say so easily that a marriage to someone not living up to his Catholic calling is a barrier to a Catholic life, when it was by having such a husband that St Monica was able to live out her Christian vocation?

I have to admit that I agree with you here. In my case, I've been told that I wasn't taking the issue seriously enough a couple years ago, why was I waiting, etc. Oh trust me...my husband has tried to frustrate my more "strict" Catholic practices, is prone to anger, and contracepting. I know my life has been lived before but it was a matter of whether or not I cared to live a truly Catholic marriage. I must also say that as a Catholic, it gets increasingly difficult to deal with admonishments from Protestants about being childless. I care about the opinions of Catholics and nonCatholics, and nonChristians.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Okay, let's say he is looking for an excuse. Why not attempt to understand his reasoning instead of just going after him for looking for excuses?

The Catholic Church is truth itself. God's grace keeps people in the Church. Something very wrong, something very unhealthy has gone wrong when a person wants to leave. Usually it is easier to just not care or even accuse that soul of something, rather than trying to undercover the hurt.

At times, it can be a matter of downright pride, wanting to put your truth above the Church - but I don't see that here.

If you read further, you would see me asking these questions...FYI.

 

[Hetta]

I have thought about this issue long and hard and realize I need to come to a decision. My husband and I have been married a handful of years, with enough time where it is reasonable to expect that as a Catholic couple, we would have 2 or 3 children. We don't have ANY.

Unfortunately my husband has made lots of excuses regarding why we couldn't have them a year or two earlier. Whether it was because we had bad jobs, not enough money, or some other excuse. He keeps pushing it back and I think I should be honest with myself and admit he doesn't want children, ever. We are both in our 30's and got married in our mid-20's, so it does seem awfully ridiculous at this point.

I also have to admit that I don't think I have a truly Catholic marriage. DH refuses to discontinue contracepting and if he had it his way, I'd be on that shot that stops menstruation for years. I won't be on contraception as it violates my faith and my conscience. In short-- we've never had truly procreative and unitive sex. I find this embarrassing as a Catholic, and more embarrassing that others look to me as a Catholic and see zero children. I know I can't be the only one in this situation, except the fact is I have to do something about it. I know a lot of other women just let it slide hoping their husbands will change and then they get divorced and get an annulment.

I know I need to confront him on this issue but I don't know what to do. I have two choices-- leave my marriage or deal with it, don't I? If I choose to stay I have to accept the fact he doesn't actually want children, but if I leave I have to accept the consequence that he will find a reason to not take me back and even worse, divorce me. I honestly have no idea what to do anymore. Lots of people have given me advice that I need to leave or accept a life of never being a mother, others have told me to pray, and others have told me to try to reason with him. I am sorry to say, but I have no control over my husband's emotions nor am I responsible for his feelings. I still am left with making a choice, both which have serious ramifications.

What should I do?

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and probably get my head torn off, but that's okay - for him to deny what I consider to be one of the most basic needs of any human being is flat out wrong.

Did he tell you before you married that he didn't want children or has it just been lies and pretence in the hope that you would both get too old and it would be, ooops, it's too late?

All I can tell you is that, generally, the desire to become a parent does not just go away at some point in your life. Not in my experience. It only itensifies, and - if left unmet - it can eat away at your joy and at your marriage. You have realized, quite rightly, that you cannot control your husband's feelings or desires but he cannot control yours either. IMO, you should seek counseling together to try to identify whether he has an unacknowledged fear of becoming a parent - and, yes, are there any skeletons in the closet there? Is his own family of birth dysfunctional? - and if he does not, and if he will not reason with you, I'm sorry, I would annul your marriage, for which I'm pretty sure you have grounds, and find a good Catholic man to have the family that you desire.

All may throw their tomatoes now.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I didn't expect my questions to spark this kind of debate. I have been reading more responses.

There is a reason why I mentioned divorce and separation in the first place. I have been told by many women that I don't have a "real" marriage. I've also been told that I need to just leave because nothing I've done has made any difference. The people I've talked to are very much under the impression that Catholics have to have children in order to have a real marriage (unless you have infertility). I guess the women I've talked to about this can't understand how I can stand being childless at my age, so they've been the ones trying to get me to leave my marriage. That's why instead of asking them, I asked HERE knowing the nature of this forum.

I hadn't thought about consulting with a priest to be honest, and that is more preferable than just packing up and leaving. As I've said, I am not divorce-happy. From what I understand, annulments should only be in play when there were serious invalidations to the marriage and marriages are presumed to be valid anyway.

I don't believe being childless invalidates your marriage. My wife and I don't have children together, though she had 3 previously.
My thought, on your situation, looking as an outsider, is that, when you two got married, children weren't spoken of before you tied the knot. I suspect that life issues were not really spoken of at all. It's possible that, when you two got married, neither one of you knew what a Catholic marriage really is. And since you assented to a vow which depth you had no understanding, it may be that it was never a marriage in the first place.

I hope the priest you talk to asks some questions, which frankly, might be tough for you to answer, but when you consider them honestly, they my point you in the right direction.

I see that you're not divorce happy, that you want it to work. You might be in a position of choosing one or the other, though. Wishing you well.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I was merely addressing the concerns another poster had about my mentioning divorce. I just hope the "sound advice" I receive isn't divorce, as priests HAVE been known to tell women that.

Don't I know it. What I didn't say when I told you my situation is that the priest that converted me, baptized, confirmed me, and gave me first Holy Communion, behind my back, was trying to convince my wife that she shouldn't be married to me...

 

[Hetta]

I don't believe being childless invalidates your marriage. My wife and I don't have children together, though she had 3 previously.
My thought, on your situation, looking as an outsider, is that, when you two got married, children weren't spoken of before you tied the knot. I suspect that life issues were not really spoken of at all. It's possible that, when you two got married, neither one of you knew what a Catholic marriage really is. And since you assented to a vow which depth you had no understanding, it may be that it was never a marriage in the first place.

I hope the priest you talk to asks some questions, which frankly, might be tough for you to answer, but when you consider them honestly, they my point you in the right direction.

I see that you're not divorce happy, that you want it to work. You might be in a position of choosing one or the other, though. Wishing you well.

I agree that being childless does not invalidate a marriage. Anyone saying that to a married person is just an idiot.

However, I disagree that children weren't spoken of, because I see this in the OP:

Unfortunately my husband has made lots of excuses regarding why we couldn't have [children] a year or two earlier. Whether it was because we had bad jobs, not enough money, or some other excuse. He keeps pushing it back and I think I should be honest with myself and admit he doesn't want children, ever. We are both in our 30's and got married in our mid-20's, so it does seem awfully ridiculous at this point.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I have to admit that I agree with you here. In my case, I've been told that I wasn't taking the issue seriously enough a couple years ago, why was I waiting, etc. Oh trust me...my husband has tried to frustrate my more "strict" Catholic practices, is prone to anger, and contracepting. I know my life has been lived before but it was a matter of whether or not I cared to live a truly Catholic marriage. I must also say that as a Catholic, it gets increasingly difficult to deal with admonishments from Protestants about being childless. I care about the opinions of Catholics and nonCatholics, and nonChristians.

I didn't get that either. My concern for your marriage has nothing to do with children, at this point. It has to do with your husband not giving himself fully to you, not loving you enough to do that. If your husband won't let you live your Catholic life, that's an issue. I would begin by asking him what love is? Is it a feeling, or a decision? Love is sacrifice. Christ loved us, and sacrificed Himself for us. Even your husband. If your husband doesn't love you enough to give all of himself, then something's wrong. That's where the priest comes in. I know the turning point in my life was when I read the Beatitudes, Matthew 5-7, those three chapters encouraged me to live a life of JOY. Jesus first, Others next, Yourself last.

In your situation your desire for children is not something selfish, I believe. It's not like wanting to have a pet, and your husband says no.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I agree that being childless does not invalidate a marriage. Anyone saying that to a married person is just an idiot.

However, I disagree that children weren't spoken of, because I see this in the OP:

Hetta, it seems to me that prior to getting married, having children was not a topic of conversation. It's totally a guess on my part though...

 

[MKJ]

I have to admit that I agree with you here. In my case, I've been told that I wasn't taking the issue seriously enough a couple years ago, why was I waiting, etc. Oh trust me...my husband has tried to frustrate my more "strict" Catholic practices, is prone to anger, and contracepting. I know my life has been lived before but it was a matter of whether or not I cared to live a truly Catholic marriage. I must also say that as a Catholic, it gets increasingly difficult to deal with admonishments from Protestants about being childless. I care about the opinions of Catholics and nonCatholics, and nonChristians.

A couple things strike me.

One is that it is rather shocking that people you don't know well seem to think they have leave to comment on this aspect of your marriage. That is just incredibly rude.

The second is that they really don't know what they are talking about. In a marriage, it is the job of the individual to do the best he or she can to live out a Christian marriage, and to help his spouse do the same. But you can't make your spouse do something, and you aren't responsible if he does not live up to his end of things. You can still live up to your religious obligations whether or not he lives up to his.

It sounds to me that in the case of the Catholics you describe, they have superficially wedded the popular view of marriage being about personal fulfilment to some rather shallow idea of Catholic theology, and come up with the idea that the goal is to have the most personally fulfilling Catholic marriage possible. Even if it means abandoning a spouse who is an imperfect Catholic (or not Catholic at all) for a better one who will meet your "needs".

I think it is true that how your childlessness witnesses to others is something to consider. But really, the position you are in is no different than if you were infertile, or had a serious reason to avoid pregnancy. You can't force your husband to abandon using birth control if it is his choice to do so. It is out of your control.

I would not tell you a separation or divorce is wrong, because I don't think it always is. But I think what these people are telling you is wrong. You will fulfill your role as a Catholic wife by doing the things required of a Catholic wife. Having or not having children when it is out of your control does not mean you have failed or are less successful at your vocation.

 

[MKJ]

General comment - just because the husband has never come around to thinking it was a good time for children does not mean he lied about wanting them, or even that now he does not want them ever.

People's feelings about procreation are often much more complicated than that. He may want them, he may have always intended to have them, but when it comes right down to accomplishing it in the here and now he can't picture it, or he is frightened, or whatever.

There are all kinds of reasons someone might fee that way. The OP suggested it might have something to do with monetary security. Or it could be about a kind of emotional insecurity, it could relate to childhood abuse - there are many many possibilities. There is a good chance he does not even have a clear idea of why he feels the way he does.

 

[Hetta]

General comment - just because the husband has never come around to thinking it was a good time for children does not mean he lied about wanting them, or even that now he does not want them ever.

People's feelings about procreation are often much more complicated than that. He may want them, he may have always intended to have them, but when it comes right down to accomplishing it in the here and now he can't picture it, or he is frightened, or whatever.

There are all kinds of reasons someone might fee that way. The OP suggested it might have something to do with monetary security. Or it could be about a kind of emotional insecurity, it could relate to childhood abuse - there are many many possibilities. There is a good chance he does not even have a clear idea of why he feels the way he does.

That's why I suggested they seek counseling. Maybe he is terrified of being a father and counseling could change that fear. Maybe he just doesn't want kids and never did. But they won't know until they discuss it seriously.

I won't quote yet again the part of the OP, but she did say that he has persistently come up with reasons why they couldn't have kids "just then". That is dishonest imo if your intent is to push it back until it is too late and then say "oh well, it's too late now." This kind of mindset is extremely dangerous to a marriage.

Also, they're Catholics. Goes without saying.