Geology help please

[Chalnoth]

Hi, I'm in a personal discussion with somebody whom I'd like to attempt to convince of the ancient age of the Earth. I've got some specific ideas of some arguments, but I could really use some help from a geologist to firm up my arguments with evidence. Specifically, I want to show that the rocks demonstrate that different rocks show entirely different ecosystems from what we see today, preferably with pretty pictures both to fossils and artists' renditions of the creatures and plants around at these times.

I don't want to show evolution per se with these fossils, just the ancient age of the Earth by showing that the past Earth had amazingly different ecosystems from what we see today. Here are some examples of the kind of thing I'd like to show:

1. A survey of Cambrian fossils, showing the variety of extinct forms, and the conspicuous lack of modern forms, including land plants and animals.
2. A glance at forests before the advent of flowering plants, and how they differ from today's forests, describing both the plants and animals.

A second thing I'd like to show is correlations between the magnetic fields and the ages of rocks. Have there been any studies done that show rocks dated to specific ages from around the world are consistent in their measurements of what the magnetic field was at that time?

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[birdan]

There's a nice video on youtube about the fossil beds across the road from the Creation Museum in Kentucky, showing the unique marine biology of the time, etc.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezQhVjGy6ME

Also, I've read articles re. magnetic fields and how they are used to map past tectonic movements. You might want to google up those articles.

 

[juvenissun]

Hi, I'm in a personal discussion with somebody whom I'd like to attempt to convince of the ancient age of the Earth. I've got some specific ideas of some arguments, but I could really use some help from a geologist to firm up my arguments with evidence. Specifically, I want to show that the rocks demonstrate that different rocks show entirely different ecosystems from what we see today, preferably with pretty pictures both to fossils and artists' renditions of the creatures and plants around at these times.

I don't want to show evolution per se with these fossils, just the ancient age of the Earth by showing that the past Earth had amazingly different ecosystems from what we see today. Here are some examples of the kind of thing I'd like to show:

1. A survey of Cambrian fossils, showing the variety of extinct forms, and the conspicuous lack of modern forms, including land plants and animals.
2. A glance at forests before the advent of flowering plants, and how they differ from today's forests, describing both the plants and animals.

A second thing I'd like to show is correlations between the magnetic fields and the ages of rocks. Have there been any studies done that show rocks dated to specific ages from around the world are consistent in their measurements of what the magnetic field was at that time?

Thanks in advance for your help.

I am sure your other geology friends will give you a whole lot of details about your questions. I am simply making a few comments:

You need to clarify what is the scale of the word "ancient"? Is it >6000 yrs, or is it > 600 m.y. This scope will affect the arguments of yours and your friend's.

Second, if the ancient meant > 600 m.y., then the only way to argue about it is to use data of radiometric dating, which I am sure you know the basic principles. Arguments use fossils, plants, etc. will not work.

Third, your questions do not need much info about the rock per se. You are seeing the record of life in rocks. In your argument, the life interpreted the ancient environment, not the rock.

 

[mpok1519]

I dont see why you should worry about convincing someone the earth is ancient; tell them to take a university geology course if they REALLY want to know the facts and truth.

I took a geology course; I'm pretty sure the professor wouldn't lie about the earth being billions of years old.

You don't just pay a thousand dollars for a credit hour to be mislead by professionals an hour of your day.

lol

and the earth is 4.1-4.5 billion years old, btw.

 

[Chalnoth]

I dont see why you should worry about convincing someone the earth is ancient;

Source: http://xkcd.com/386/

tell them to take a university geology course if they REALLY want to know the facts and truth.

Ah, well, not really feasible in this case. He's just too busy. I also don't think it's strictly necessary, and if this goes as well as possible (not very likely, I suppose), he may be motivated to learn more on his own.

and the earth is 4.1-4.5 billion years old, btw.

Well, I believe we're down to 4.54 billion years plus or minus tens of millions of years.

 

[Chalnoth]

I am sure your other geology friends will give you a whole lot of details about your questions. I am simply making a few comments:

You need to clarify what is the scale of the word "ancient"? Is it >6000 yrs, or is it > 600 m.y. This scope will affect the arguments of yours and your friend's.

Well, I hope to show the precise age, but he believes it to be thousands of years (10,000 at the outside).

Second, if the ancient meant > 600 m.y., then the only way to argue about it is to use data of radiometric dating, which I am sure you know the basic principles. Arguments use fossils, plants, etc. will not work.

Oh, of course I plan to make use of radiometric dating. I just don't need any help with that, as I think I understand it well enough to describe it effectively, as well as provide evidence.

Third, your questions do not need much info about the rock per se. You are seeing the record of life in rocks. In your argument, the life interpreted the ancient environment, not the rock.

Right, that's sort of the point. I just want to show that there are groups of rocks that show extremely alien environments, for this step of the argument.

 

[mpok1519]

If someone is a creationist, I don't think they ever want to know the facts, just what they believe.

 

[Chalnoth]

There's a nice video on youtube about the fossil beds across the road from the Creation Museum in Kentucky, showing the unique marine biology of the time, etc.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezQhVjGy6ME

Also, I've read articles re. magnetic fields and how they are used to map past tectonic movements. You might want to google up those articles.

Thanks, an interesting video. But it touches on a lot of subjects such as evolution that I'd just rather not go into at the moment. I'd rather keep my argument focused in on the age of the Earth, and steer away from discussing any Creationist claims, but just focus on the solid science that demonstrates what we know to be true.

 

[Chalnoth]

If someone is a creationist, I don't think they ever want to know the facts, just what they believe.

Well, we'll see. I'm cautiously optimistic. I honestly don't think he knows much about creationism or of any of the sciences related to the ancient age of the Earth, and so he's sort of just adopted the default stance of the social groups of which he's a part. I could be wrong, I suppose, but we'll see.

 

[juvenissun]

Right, that's sort of the point. I just want to show that there are groups of rocks that show extremely alien environments, for this step of the argument.

Just take a look at the rocks along a mid-oceanic ridge. Are those rocks uncommon? NO. Are the lives nearby those rocks living in an "extremely alien environment"? YES.

So, you can see the difference and the considerations needed to use rock itself as an environmental indicator.

 

[Chalnoth]

Just take a look at the rocks along a mid-oceanic ridge. Are those rocks uncommon? NO. Are the lives nearby those rocks living in an "extremely alien environment"? YES.

So, you can see the difference and the considerations needed to use rock itself as an environmental indicator.

I don't think there are many fossils in those rocks, so presumably you're talking about living or recently dead organisms. If you read my post, you should recognize that I'm talking about contrasting these fossil beds with currently-living organisms.

 

[Baggins]

Do a google image on Burgess shale if you want lots of nice artists impressions of Cambrian fauna.

Google image of Carboniferous forests does the same for pre-flowering plant forest.

Is this the sort of thing you want?

As for magnetic reversals correlation with radiometric aging data, I suggest you look at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_reversal

and take it from there. There should be information of the links about how they dated the MORB ( mid ocean ridge basalts ) through dredging to date the magnetic reversals.

Hope this helps.

I'd do more but I am busy at work at the moment

 

[mpok1519]

Whats good evidence for polar shifts?

 

[Chalnoth]

Do a google image on Burgess shale if you want lots of nice artists impressions of Cambrian fauna.

Google image of Carboniferous forests does the same for pre-flowering plant forest.

Is this the sort of thing you want?

As for magnetic reversals correlation with radiometric aging data, I suggest you look at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_reversal

and take it from there. There should be information of the links about how they dated the MORB ( mid ocean ridge basalts ) through dredging to date the magnetic reversals.

Hope this helps.

I'd do more but I am busy at work at the moment

Well, thanks, Baggins! That should be good to get me started. Never having taken a geology course makes this sort of thing a bit more difficult

 

[juvenissun]

Well, thanks, Baggins! That should be good to get me started. Never having taken a geology course makes this sort of thing a bit more difficult

I should say thank you for this nice thread.

You may not see what I am talking about. But that does not matter. I did learn one important thing from you.

 

[mpok1519]

juvenisin>> maybe u should take a geology class.

 

[Baggins]

I see from looking at your original post that what I posted was a bit simplistic and that you wanted a comparison of Cambrian fauna with later faunas to show how different they were.

Sorry about that. If I have any spare time I will look into it as I would find it interesting myself. But if you have access to "Wonderful Life" by Stephen Gould the later chapters cover the amazing differences between the Burgess Shale and modern faunas.

Simon Conway Moriss' "The Crucible of Creation" covers similar ground and contains a scientific spat with Gould, which is entertaining.

If you google image Cambrian Fauna, Permian Fauna, Creataeous fauna, tertiary fauna etc you should get artists reconstructions of the faunas at these times which will show their differences plus pictures of the fossils that they are basing the reconstructions on to show that it isn't just fertile imagination.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

Banded iron stones are a good starting point has their formation is directly linked to early photosynthesis and the evolution of Precambrian life.
Banded Iron Formations are thought to have formed from the precipitation of iron from the Earth's ancient oceans. Photosynthetic bacteria produced, for perhaps the first time in the young Earth's oceans, free oxygen which oxidized the dissolved iron that existed abundantly at the time. Oxidized iron is not soluble in water and thus it would precipitate out of the oceans and onto the muddy sea floor.

The images below is of an iron ore mines in Australia, for scale the trucks in the image are 100 tons in weigh empty. All this iron was precipitated out of the sea water by oxygen liberated by photosynthesising bacteria.

Mount Whaleback open-cut BIF iron-ore mine.

A BHP Billiton operation in Australia. BHP Billiton said that demand for commodities was growing faster than it could dig new mines.

Even though these BIFs have been dated, there still remains the question of their formation that is they are biogenic rocks (formed from life), no one in their right mind would suggest that they formed in anything other than 10s if not 100s of millions of years. Of course creationists will use magical mysticism to explain then, but the simple fact of their size and magnatude and the processes that formed them dictate VERY LONG TIME FRAMES, consistent with a Earth of 4.5 billion years of geological history.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

Banded iron stones are a good starting point has their formation is directly linked to early photosynthesis and the evolution of Precambrian life.
Banded Iron Formations are thought to have formed from the precipitation of iron from the Earth's ancient oceans. Photosynthetic bacteria produced, for perhaps the first time in the young Earth's oceans, free oxygen which oxidized the dissolved iron that existed abundantly at the time. Oxidized iron is not soluble in water and thus it would precipitate out of the oceans and onto the muddy sea floor.

The images below is of an iron ore mines in Australia, for scale the trucks in the image are 100 tons in weigh empty. All this iron was precipitated out of the sea water by oxygen liberated by photosynthesising bacteria.

Mount Whaleback open-cut BIF iron-ore mine.

A BHP Billiton operation in Australia. BHP Billiton said that demand for commodities was growing faster than it could dig new mines.

Even though these BIFs have been dated, there still remains the question of their formation that is they are biogenic rocks (formed from life), no one in their right mind would suggest that they formed in anything other than 10s if not 100s of millions of years. Of course creationists will use magical mysticism to explain then, but the simple fact of their size and magnatude and the processes that formed them dictate VERY LONG TIME FRAMES, consistent with a Earth of 4.5 billion years of geological history.

 

[Chalnoth]

I see from looking at your original post that what I posted was a bit simplistic and that you wanted a comparison of Cambrian fauna with later faunas to show how different they were.

Sorry about that. If I have any spare time I will look into it as I would find it interesting myself. But if you have access to "Wonderful Life" by Stephen Gould the later chapters cover the amazing differences between the Burgess Shale and modern faunas.

Simon Conway Moriss' "The Crucible of Creation" covers similar ground and contains a scientific spat with Gould, which is entertaining.

If you google image Cambrian Fauna, Permian Fauna, Creataeous fauna, tertiary fauna etc you should get artists reconstructions of the faunas at these times which will show their differences plus pictures of the fossils that they are basing the reconstructions on to show that it isn't just fertile imagination.

Nah, actually, your earlier post was good for me, as the Burgess Shale searches alone yielded some great pictures describing the life found there, as well as a few comparisons between modern ecosystems. Know of any other famous fossil beds that provide images of a similarly alien ecosystem from a different time frame? If at all possible, I'd like to leave, at this point, pesky details like dating out of the equation, and just focus on the alien nature of specific fossil beds.