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Geocentricity and Stellar Parallax

LeeC

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Sun's revolution. Not to be confused with the daily rotation of the universe.

solarsystemef8.jpg
WOW... just look at all that heavy mechanical stuff required to move the sun around the Earth... Yet the Earth and moon only requires a tiny motor.

This would be a hint to most people.

RichardT - quick question.

You say that the Earth does not move, so are you happy that every other object in the solar system rotates?

Seems a bit weird if you claim as you do the Earth is still.

Cheers

Lee
 
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RichardT

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Doesn't move with respect to what, RichardT? You've told me earlier that motion is relative. So what is the Earth not moving relative to?

According to modern science's understanding of relativity, no one could dogmatically state that the earth was actually in motion. But what I want to try to do, possibly later on when I get a better understanding of relativity, is argue against some assumptions of relativity that allow the earth to actually move. The Michaelson-Morley experiment showed no motion of the earth within the believed luminiferous ether after all. Dr. Bouw would not accept all motion to be relative, but that all motion is relative with respect to the plenum ether.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity
 
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Maxwell511

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According to modern science's understanding of relativity, no one could dogmatically state that the earth was actually in motion.

Yes they can.

The only way around this is to postulate that there are more forces than the four we know of or that Newton's laws of motion are incorrect.

Edit: One of the postulates of special relativity is that the laws of physics are the same in all inertial reference frames. It is in the page you linked to, how can you not get this?

If the earth is not in motion than its reference frame is inertial. That means if you take the first postulate of special relativity as correct than the laws of physics are define for the earths reference frame. This requires the above mentioned postulates; more forces or Newton's laws being wrong or both.
 
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gamespotter10

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First and foremost, it must be stated that even if I didn't understand how stellar parallax worked within any Geocentric model, I would still believe that the earth absolutely did not move and that the sun went around the earth, I would try to run a hypothesis for why Parallax worked within the heliocentric coordinate system and not the Geocentric. But since this isn't the case, I am quite happy to note that there is in fact no problem with respect to Stellar Parallax in one Geocentric model. I would also like to thank Dr. Gerardus Dingeman Bouw for helping me understand.

To quote church reformer Martin Luther:

lutherff3.jpg


"Scripture simply says that the moon, the sun, and the stars were placed in the firmament of the heaven, below and above which heaven are the waters... It is likely that the stars are fastened to the firmament like globes of fire, to shed light at night... We Christians must be different from the philosophers in the way we think about the causes of things. And if some are beyond our comprehension like those before us concerning the waters above the heavens, we must believe them rather than wickedly deny them or presumptuously interpret them in conformity with our understanding."


- Martin Luther, Luther's Works. Vol. 1. Lectures on Genesis, ed. Janoslaw Pelikan, Concordia Pub. House, St. Louis, Missouri, 1958, pp. 30, 42, 43.

The following is an experiment that can be done very easily by anyone and will demonstrate that Stellar Parallax is in fact equal within the Modified Tycho Brahe System and the modern heliocentric / acentric view.

1. Extend one of your arms, stick one of your fingers up, and close one eye. Notice it's location with reference to the background (possibly best to do this looking through a window, to see distant trees or other random objects outside).

parallaxexperiment1ez8.jpg


2. While looking at your finger with your one eye, keeping the same position with respect to the background, move your head six inches left and right from your starting position. You'll notice that it will seem like the finger is moving with respect to the background, this is the heliocentric view of Stellar Parallax.

parallaxexperiment2zu1.jpg

parallax.jpg
RichardT, please, if the earth does NOT rotate, then how exactly do you explain the coriolis effect?

and why are the distant stars redshifted rather than blueshifted?
 
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RichardT

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RichardT, please, if the earth does NOT rotate, then how exactly do you explain the coriolis effect?
After Einstein's special, and then general theory of relativity was formulated, a bunch of agnostics thought it would be fun to see if the earth as a reference frame could work. It turns out that they have actually mathematically proved that this was true. For now, I'll simply reference their work.
  1. Barbour and Bertotti, 1977. Il Nuovo Cimento B, 38:1.
  2. Brown, G. B., 1955. Proceedings of the Phys. Soc. B, 68:672.
  3. Thirring, H., 1916. Phys. Z. 19:33.
  4. Lense, J. & Thirring, H., 1918, Ibid. 22:29.
  5. Gerber, P., 1898. Zeitschr. f. Math. u. Physik, 43:93.
  6. Møller, C., 1952. The Theory of Relativity, (Oxford: Clarendon Press), pp. 318-321.
  7. Moon, P. & Spencer, D. E., 1959. Philos. of Science, 26:125.
  8. Rosser, W. G. V., 1964. An Intro. to the Theory of Relativity, (London: Butterworths), p. 460.
For rotation see: P. F. Browne, 1977. "Relativity of Rotation," Jrnl. of Physics A: Math. & Gen. Relativity, 10:727.

Thirring discusses the effects of a rotating mass in this one. This works with a plenum ether as well.

Thirring, H., 1916. Phys. Z. 19:33.

and why are the distant stars redshifted rather than blueshifted?
The expansion of the universe caused them to be red shifted.
 
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Maxwell511

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You still haven't commented on my questions about the z axis component of the force.

Richard, I don't think that you understand the paper. There is nothing to be ashamed of by this, personally I don't understand the derivation of the equations of motion, I haven't studied GR enough to do so.

I do however understand the equations of motions that were derived, and because of this I'll give you the opportunity to be a scientist.

Equation 22 presents a hypothetical force that would exist on an object enclosed in a rotating mass. We only need the x component here to formed our hypothesis so;

x(..)=-ay(.)+bx

I shortened the constants in the original equation to a and b. The points in the brackets represent the dots above the variables in the original equation. (..) represent acceleration and (.) represents velocity. So x(..) is acceleration in the x direction and y(.) is velocity in the y direction.

Now if we consider geostationary orbits of earthbound satellites the y(.) is zero. The earth is not moving therefore they are not moving. So the equation goes to

x(..)=bx

The origin is at the centre of mass of the earth and these satellites will feel a force due to gravity towards this point. This force will be given by Newton's laws and gravitational equation by

x(..)=GM/x^2

where G is the gravitational constant, M is the mass of the earth.

Putting the two equations equal we get and letting GM=c;

c/x^2=bx

=> x^3-c/b=0

Basically what the last equation means is that based on your hypothesis there are only three distances from the earth's mass center at the equator that a geostationary orbit can exist.

Now be a scientist and test your hypothesis. (I don't mean actually launch satellites, just find out if the placements of current geostationary satellites agrees with your hypothesis:) ).

Edit: Sorry one distance above the earths surface the other two solutions should give the radius of the earth from its center.
 
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Dragar

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But what I want to try to do, possibly later on when I get a better understanding of relativity, is argue against some assumptions of relativity that allow the earth to actually move.

You mean the assumption that the laws of physics are the same in every (inertial) reference frame? Which was the assumption in special relativity?

Not to mention Newton's theories.

And in GR it gets even worse for you, because the laws of physics are identical in every reference frame.

That's the assumption you are wanting to challenge.

How convoluted do you want your universe to be? You are making things up to preserve the Bible's truth, RichardT. Your beliefs are only existing in the gaps of our knowledge.

What sort of theology are you creating here?

After Einstein's special, and then general theory of relativity was formulated, a bunch of agnostics thought it would be fun to see if the earth as a reference frame could work. It turns out that they have actually mathematically proved that this was true. For now, I'll simply reference their work.

You've grossly misunderstood these papers. For example, Thirring showed that in a very idealised situation, a symmetry the likes of which Mach would have been pleased by exists in GR. He knew, as did everyone else before him, that any reference frame is valid in GR. That was not his point.

But this makes things worse for geocentrism! Now, not only can you choose any non-rotating reference frame as your coordinate system, you can (in these idealised situations) choose any reference frame at all!

So much for the Earth's location being 'special'.
 
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lemmings

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Yes. But it doesn't matter if the permeating plenum ether medium is moving faster than the speed of light simply because the known laws of physics would work within it.
The known laws of physics break down as objects near the speed of light thus it would be impossible for them to be simulated in at this speed.
If it wasn't for the scriptures I too would be unaware of it.
The same people who feared advocated the execution of imaginary witches are somehow more intelligent than modern astronomers?
The quantum grains which are found all over space
What are “quantum grains?”
quantum grains which are found all over space are taken by Dr. Bouw to be the planck particles,
Plank particles are undetectable, if we can detect “quantum grains”, then they are not plank particles. Bouw should know this.
I would need to study this more though because I wouldn't know if this were possible myself.
It’s not mathematically possible.
 
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RichardT

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x(..)=-ay(.)+bx

I shortened the constants in the original equation to a and b. The points in the brackets represent the dots above the variables in the original equation. (..) represent acceleration and (.) represents velocity. So x(..) is acceleration in the x direction and y(.) is velocity in the y direction. Now if we consider geostationary orbits of earthbound satellites the y(.) is zero. The earth is not moving therefore they are not moving.
The earth isn't moving but the universe is. You are correct to say that y(.) = 0 but the velocity of the ether is not = 0. As long as gravity is a reality, the centripetal, centrifugal, Coriolis forces will remain. The geostationary orbits remain.

So the equation goes to

x(..)=bx

The origin is at the centre of mass of the earth and these satellites will feel a force due to gravity towards this point. This force will be given by Newton's laws and gravitational equation by

x(..)=GM/x^2

where G is the gravitational constant, M is the mass of the earth.

Putting the two equations equal we get and letting GM=c;

c/x^2=bx

=> x^3-c/b=0

Basically what the last equation means is that based on your hypothesis there are only three distances from the earth's mass center at the equator that a geostationary orbit can exist.

Now be a scientist and test your hypothesis. (I don't mean actually launch satellites, just find out if the placements of current geostationary satellites agrees with your hypothesis:) ).

Edit: Sorry one distance above the earths surface the other two solutions should give the radius of the earth from its center.
I think this might be a misconception of what I'm arguing for, I do believe there are to and fro motions to the ether in order to account for accelerations etc.

"Both the ether and the penum aether = firmament rotate about the earth in 23 hours 56 minutes. (The remaining four minutes are due to the yearly vibration of the universe which carries the sun about the earth once a year. The sun thinks the earth revolves around it, so it is content, gravitationally speaking. If God allowed the firmament to be felt by the material universe, then the latter would instantly cease to exist."

-- Dr. Bouw
 
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RichardT

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You still haven't explained how the seasonal stellar parallax is a result of the universe moving and not the Earth.


Chalnoth, the parallax measurements are the same from the daily motion simply because the sun moves with the background for the daily motion. The stars will find themselves at the same place when looking at them with respect to the background. It's pretty simple.

From post #2:

"3. Start in the same position as number 1. Instead of moving your head, move your finger 6 inches to the left and right from your starting position. You'll notice that the finger will move in the same way as what was observed in step 2 with respect to the background. This is the Geocentric interpretation, you'll note that if you were to measure the distances with respect to the more distant background, the angles are not going to be identical to the results in step 2."
 
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Blayz

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Chalnoth, the parallax measurements are the same from the daily motion simply because the sun moves with the background for the daily motion. The stars will find themselves at the same place when looking at them with respect to the background. It's pretty simple.

The correct term is "simplistic", not simple, and its also wrong, and, as pointed out, does not account for seasonal parallax.

Repeating it over and over again doesn't make it any more true.
 
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MoonLancer

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So why do we never see the sun betwixt mars and jupiter?

I'm curious why we have yet to see a Martian eclipse as well...

How could Mars even manage to escape the sun’s gravity at that distance? Do you believe that other planet's moons revolve around the earth?

Did you even read this? It's saying that the geocentric model doesn't work.

Also, you have still yet to explain why we never see the sun betwixt mars and jupiter.

What I don't get is how Pluto's gravity is enough to attract a moon, yet the sun does not even affect Mars...

MODIFIED TYCHO BRAHE SYSTEM

mtbshj0.jpg


Sorry, I didn't really notice your post so much before but this is a huge misunderstanding of the model. Mars will never get that close to the sun because the orbits of the planets are focused on the sun. Remember, the sun is the geometric center of the universe while the earth is the dynamic center in this model. The earth is always offset from the center but never moves. The original Tycho Brahe system, which agreed with all observations at his time also had the planets orbiting the sun. Although in his model, the earth was the geometric center of the universe so the distant stars would simply rotate the earth. The original Tycho Brahe system is not as useful today because it does not account for the aberration / parallax of distant stars, in Brahe's time they did not know the immense distances of the universe that we know today.

ORIGINAL TYCHO BRAHE SYSTEM

tycho_model.jpg

Richard, according to the Tycho Brahe system, the sun can be between mars and jupiter. Why do we never see this?


hmmm why is this Richard? Its a pretty big flaw in your system. care to explain?
 
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RichardT

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hmmm why is this Richard? Its a pretty big flaw in your system. care to explain?

It shows that you really really really don't understand the system. Picture it this way, imagine the entire diagram moving with the motion of the sun around the earth.

mtbshj0.jpg
 
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RichardT

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The correct term is "simplistic", not simple, and its also wrong, and, as pointed out, does not account for seasonal parallax.

Repeating it over and over again doesn't make it any more true.


Man, I've explained this so many times, please tell me why it's wrong?
 
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