Genocide

[AV1611VET]

The Israelites are commanded to kill the males but preserve the women and children of distant nations (not Canaanites) for forced labour in Deuteronomy 20:10-18.

If you want to talk genocide, let's talk genocide --- let's not bounce around here and go from "every man, woman, and child" to "every male".

 

[AV1611VET]

[delete]

 

[Nooj]

If you want to talk genocide, let's talk genocide --- let's not bounce around here and go from "every man, woman, and child" to "every male".

The Bible has no problem in killing the men and saving the women and children of other children, and gives no voice to the fear that their descendants will turn on the Israelites. So why are the Canaanites any different? Are they intrinsically evil or something?

 

[AV1611VET]

The Bible has no problem in killing the men and saving the women and children of other children, and gives no voice to the fear that their descendants will turn on the Israelites. So why are the Canaanites any different? Are they intrinsically evil or something?

Obviously, you want to leave the discussion about genocide behind now.

Nice talking to you.

 

[Nooj]

The Bible has no problem in killing the men and saving the women and children of other children, and gives no voice to the fear that their descendants will turn on the Israelites. So why are the Canaanites any different? Are they intrinsically evil or something?

Woops. That should be: and saving the women and children of other nations.

Because he read it in a Book that he is supposed to learn.

The Bible wasn't around then to read.

How do you think little Johnny is going to feel when he sees he's different from his parents genetically

Why should that matter? Do adopted kids in the modern age kill their parents because they come from different ancestries?

and finds out "mom and dad" killed his biological mom and dad?

On the orders of God. And if he's a good little Israelite, he'll accept that his God did it and move on.

Obviously, you want to leave the discussion about genocide behind now.

Nice talking to you.

I don't understand why you think that I'm trying to leave the discussion about genocide, but nice talking to you too.

 

[[serious]]

Because he read it in a Book that he is supposed to learn.

Look at it this way --- you guys should see how you arc and spark when we say we're all sinners.

How do you think little Johnny is going to feel when he sees he's different from his parents genetically, and finds out "mom and dad" killed his biological mom and dad?

If you guys harbor this much disgust at Christianity on a doctrinal level, I'd hate to see what happens when it's on a dynamic level.

who is "you guys"? I'm a christian. Children of conquered people often intergrate well into the adoptive culture. Why would Judaism be so much worse at caring for war orphans?

 

[AV1611VET]

[delete]

 

[Bible2]

Nooj posted in message #41 of this thread:

By what criteria does God choose the elect?

Greetings.

God doesn't choose the elect or pass over the non-elect based on
their actions; he chose or passed over people before the foundation
of the world (Ephesians 1:4), before they had done anything at all
(Romans 9:11). Neither the elect nor the non-elect are righteous;
all are sinners (Romans 3:9-10). The elect were created in order that
through them God might show his mercy and glory (Romans 9:23);
the non-elect were created in order that through them God might
show his wrath and power (Romans 9:22).

 

[AV1611VET]

Greetings.

God doesn't choose the elect or pass over the non-elect based on
their actions; he chose or passed over people before the foundation
of the world (Ephesians 1:4), before they had done anything at all
(Romans 9:11). Neither the elect nor the non-elect are righteous;
all are sinners (Romans 3:9-10). The elect were created in order that
through them God might show his mercy and glory (Romans 9:23);
the non-elect were created in order that through them God might
show his wrath and power (Romans 9:22).

Supralapsarianism?

 

[Nooj]

Greetings.

God doesn't choose the elect or pass over the non-elect based on
their actions; he chose or passed over people before the foundation
of the world (Ephesians 1:4), before they had done anything at all
(Romans 9:11). Neither the elect nor the non-elect are righteous;
all are sinners (Romans 3:9-10). The elect were created in order that
through them God might show his mercy and glory (Romans 9:23);
the non-elect were created in order that through them God might
show his wrath and power (Romans 9:22).

God creates some people just to kill them and send them to hell in order to show off his power? That's insanely cruel.

And if we're all sinners, God's choice is arbitrary isn't it? Isn't the Fall in Eden the start of sin? If Adam and Eve never disobeyed God, what would have happened to his election? Nullified?

 

[talitha]

Not all Christians agree with Bible2 on that issue. Just sayin'

 

[Nooj]

The Canaanites were a brutal people who had it coming. Among other things, they sacrificed their children alive to their gods.

Lets examine their brutality.

Deuteronomy 18:9-13

When you come into the land that the LORD your God is about to give you, you shall not learn to do like the abhorrent things of these nations. There shall not be found among you one who passes his son or his daughter through fire, a speller of charms (in other translations, 'who pracises divination'), a soothsayer, or a diviner or a sorcerer, or a chanter of incantations or an inquirer of ghost or familiar spirit or one who seeks out the dead. For whosoever does these is the LORD's abhorrence, and because of these abhorrent things the LORD your God is about to dispossess them before you.

Evidently, God considers sacrificing one's children morally equivalent to speaking to the dead. Do you? If the Canaanites never sacrificed children, but still practiced these other 'abhorrent things', would you still be so gung-ho about their annihilation?

 

[Bible2]

AV1611VET posted in message #51 of this thread:

Supralapsarianism?

Greetings.

Scripturalism might be a better term, insofar as supralapsarianism is
only a man-made term for what the scriptures themselves teach in
Romans 9:11-24, Ephesians 1:4, Jude 1:4, 1 Peter 2:8, and Acts
15:18. These scriptures do not contradict free will; they do not
require that God has ever made anyone to sin, or even tempted
anyone to sin (James 1:13-15, Mark 7:15,20-23).

 

[Bible2]

Nooj posted in message #52 of this thread:

God creates some people just to kill them and send them to hell in
order to show off his power? That's insanely cruel.

Greetings.

We cannot in our human pride judge and revile God for creating
human vessels of his wrath (Romans 9:21-22), for that would be
wrongly asserting that infinitesimal, sinful humans are more important
than the will of the infinite, perfectly-holy God. Compared with God,
all of mankind together is less than nothing (Isaiah 40:15,17); once
we in humility accept this fact, we will no longer judge and revile
God for creating human vessels of his wrath.

Nooj posted in message #52 of this thread:

And if we're all sinners, God's choice is arbitrary isn't it?

Because we're all sinners (Romans 3:9-10), God can reveal either his
mercy or his wrath through each one of us (Romans 9:22-23).

Nooj posted in message #52 of this thread:

Isn't the Fall in Eden the start of sin?

The Fall in Eden was the start of sinfulness for Adamic mankind on
the earth (Romans 5:12).

Nooj posted in message #52 of this thread:

If Adam and Eve never disobeyed God, what would have happened
to his election? Nullified?

No; God is omniscient. He knew before he even created Adam and
Eve that they would choose to disobey him.

 

[Bible2]

Nooj posted in message #54 of this thread:

Evidently, God considers sacrificing one's children morally equivalent
to speaking to the dead.

Actually, God could consider killing one's children a worse sin than
necromancy. But ultimately the wages of any sin whatsoever is
death (Romans 6:23). It's easy to forget that even if God had not
commanded the Israelites to kill the Canaanites, the Canaanites
would have eventually died for their sins anyway, if even just from
old age. And compared with eternity, there is no real difference
between a life lasting, say, only two years, and a life lasting only 80
years. Both are just a blink of an eye (James 4:14b). So judging and
reviling God for commanding the Israelites to kill the Canaanites is
ultimately the same as judging and reviling God for the fact that
people die of old age. And to judge and revile God for the mortality of
humans is the same as judging and reviling God for not making all
humans immortal no matter how sinful they are. And this reveals
what ultimately underlies all human judging and reviling of God: the
desire of sinful humans to get rid of God, and live forever on their
own and do whatever they want. But alas, this is an existential
impossibility, for our very existence is maintained solely by God
(Acts 17:28, Colossians 1:17); in this fact can begin our humility as
mere humans, mere creatures, who are not the Creator, who are not
God (Romans 9:20).

 

[Nooj]

You know Bible2, I'm glad you're here in this thread. I like to get a diverse range of Christian answers and I don't usually meet Calvinists.

No; God is omniscient. He knew before he even created Adam and
Eve that they would choose to disobey him.

If he knew Adam and Eve were going to disobey, why create them?

Were Adam and Eve part of the elect?

Because we're all sinners (Romans 3:9-10), God can reveal either his
mercy or his wrath through each one of us (Romans 9:22-23).

Right, but what I'm asking is why God elects one sinner but doesn't elect another sinner, since we're all born sinners how does he judge which one is worthy of his mercy? It'd be like picking out two identical looking apples, one for eating and another for throwing in the bin.

Is it simply unknowable because only God knows? Do you believe God even has a reason?

But ultimately the wages of any sin whatsoever is
death (Romans 6:23). It's easy to forget that even if God had not
commanded the Israelites to kill the Canaanites, the Canaanites
would have eventually died for their sins anyway, if even just from
old age. And compared with eternity, there is no real difference
between a life lasting, say, only two years, and a life lasting only 80
years.

That's an interesting perspective. But if you believe that the Canaanites were not chosen, the eternity that would await them would be Hell. Even for the children?

 

[lawtonfogle]

God creates some people just to kill them and send them to hell in order to show off his power? That's insanely cruel.

And if we're all sinners, God's choice is arbitrary isn't it? Isn't the Fall in Eden the start of sin? If Adam and Eve never disobeyed God, what would have happened to his election? Nullified?

I have to agree with you here.

Anyways, I still find myself a bit miffed about never being told about the 'other' half of the Bible. And I am still a bit confused on the whole right now.

 

[Nooj]

I have to agree with you here.

Anyways, I still find myself a bit miffed about never being told about the 'other' half of the Bible. And I am still a bit confused on the whole right now.

When I was a kid, we were taught how to sing 'Joshua fought the battle of Jericho'. They never bothered to explain what happened after the walls came tumbling down.

The Old Testament is very interesting. I suggest everyone reads it. My favourite bits have to be Job, Ecclesiastes and Genesis.

 

[talitha]

My favourite bits have to be Job, Ecclesiastes and Genesis.

why am I not surprised? hehe

 

[Bible2]

Nooj posted in message #58 of this thread:

I don't usually meet Calvinists.

Greetings.

No Christian should call himself or be called a Calvinist, for Christians
are not to be identified by the name of any man but Christ himself
(1 Corinthians 1:12-13). Neither should any Biblical Christian doctrine
ever be called Calvinist, but should instead simply be called scriptural
(2 Timothy 3:16).

Nooj posted in message #58 of this thread:

If he knew Adam and Eve were going to disobey, why create them?

God created Adam and Eve even though he knew that they and all
of mankind would become sinful, because God wanted to have
vessels of his mercy and vessels of his wrath (Romans 9:22-23).

Nooj posted in message #58 of this thread:

Were Adam and Eve part of the elect?

If Adam and Eve died in a state of faith (Hebrews 11:13) and
obedience (James 2:24), then they were part of the elect, or
vessels of mercy.

Nooj posted in message #58 of this thread:

Right, but what I'm asking is why God elects one sinner but
doesn't elect another sinner, since we're all born sinners how does
he judge which one is worthy of his mercy?

Nobody is worthy of God's mercy (Romans 3:23). The vessels of
mercy were chosen solely by God's grace (Ephesians 2:8-9,
2 Timothy 1:9).

Nooj posted in message #58 of this thread:

It'd be like picking out two identical looking apples, one for eating
and another for throwing in the bin.

The analogy the Bible uses is that it's like a potter making two pots
from one lump of clay. One pot is made unto honor, and one pot is
made unto dishonor (Romans 9:21-23).

Nooj posted in message #58 of this thread:

Is it simply unknowable because only God knows? Do you believe God
even has a reason?

What is known is that the reason God chooses someone as a vessel
of mercy has nothing to do with the goodness of that person (Titus
3:5), just as the reason God chooses someone as a vessel of wrath
has nothing to do with any exceptional badness of that person. For
example, Paul the apostle says that he was the chief of sinners
before he got saved (1 Timothy 1:15). Yet God still hadn't chosen
Paul as a vessel of wrath (1 Timothy 1:16).

Nooj posted in message #58 of this thread:

But if you believe that the Canaanites were not chosen, the eternity
that would await them would be Hell.

That's right. The ultimate fate of the vessels of wrath is eternal
torment in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15,10, 14:10-11, Matthew
25:41,46), which is Gehenna, the eternal hell (Mark 9:43-44).

Nooj posted in message #58 of this thread:

Even for the children?

People are chosen as vessels of wrath or mercy even before they
are born, before they have done anything at all (Romans 9:11-24).
And everyone is conceived in sin (Psalms 51:5) and wicked from the
womb (Psalms 58:3). No one is innocent; everyone is sinful (Romans
3:9-12, 5:12).