Genocide

[Nooj]

As Christians, what are your thoughts on the genocide of the Canaanites? Why do you think God ordered them to do this? Do you think it was a moral act? Is it consistent with the loving nature of God in Christianity?

 

[[serious]]

This is one of the things that makes me reject biblical infallibility. No, I do not believe genocide is moral even if you feel God is commanding you to. There was an understanding of morality in the old testament that could be simplified to "might makes right". I do not hold stock in this view.

 

[AV1611VET]

As Christians, what are your thoughts on the genocide of the Canaanites? Why do you think God ordered them to do this? Do you think it was a moral act? Is it consistent with the loving nature of God in Christianity?

When God ratified the Abrahamic Covenant with Abram, He told Abraham that he and his descendants would be "out of the area" for awhile --- 400 years to be exact.

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again:

Then he tells Abraham WHY they will be gone for so long.

...for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

The Promised Land can be summed up in two different types of people:

1. The Amorites = those who lived in the mountains and elevated areas.
2. The Canaanites = those who lived in the valleys and lowlands.

Kind of like calling us here in the United States: hillbillies and flatlanders.

So God, Who works on a timetable, waited until the time was just right to send the Israelites back home.

In that 400-year period, it is conjectured that the Amorites and Canaanites had sunk low enough that God had to step in and do something.

Their religion was demanding the sacrifice of their children, STDs were at epidemic proportions, lawlessness was the norm, and possibly, they were becoming a threat to the entire earth.

Much longer, and another Flood would have been the answer --- but God promised never to send a global flood again.

In any case, after 400 years of squatting on land that wasn't theirs, and having 400 years to repent and refusing to do so --- God executed them.

 

[talitha]

For a Christian the starting point is this - God is right. If I am at issue with something in His revealed Word, then I am the one who is wrong. When I approach the Bible with this kind of humility, I am always rewarded with a deeper understanding of the truth of God. I used to have a lot of trouble with the wars and killings too, but He revealed to me that the earthly life of a human is actually not the thing of highest value in His economy.

As Christians, what are your thoughts on the genocide of the Canaanites? Why do you think God ordered them to do this? Do you think it was a moral act? Is it consistent with the loving nature of God in Christianity?

It was a moral act, because the definition of morality belongs to God, not to us. When I separate the "God of Abraham" from the "God of the New Testament", I refuse to accept Who God is. He is the same throughout history and absolutely consistent.

There was an understanding of morality in the old testament that could be simplified to "might makes right".

It's not might that makes right. It's agreement with God that makes right.

<staff edit>

The ancient Hebrews were quite a warlike civilization who took land from other people by force. Also, archaeology shows that the Hebrews are a Canaanite people who merely switch to a monotheistic religion that became Judaism.[/quote]
Yes, when God revealed Himself to people, they turned to Him and out of Abraham He formed a race that was His. This race was chosen to receive and store up the revelations He gave to them about Himself along the way. Some of those revelations were given in prophetic messages, but many of them were given as history played out, and then they were written down. I believe that the Lord specifically made the Abramic race to be good record-keepers so that today we have accurate and terse accounts of things that happened.

<staff edit>


The Hebrews did not kill the first borns of Egypt. At any rate, God's actions and the actions His people have taken in obedience to Him do not need "justification". All of God's judgments are just.

Why would God instruct His people to kill the ones who inhabited the land He promised to His people? It was because of their worship of false gods. He would not have His people (the carriers of the Messiah-seed) tainted by their mixing with the idolators, and He knew His people's vulnerability to this. In fact, because they did NOT follow His commands to completely destroy in many situations, there was mixture, which is why the Hebrew race did not find a permanent home but was exiled more than once. Interestingly, however, a careful reading of the book of Joshua will show that God did not instruct every city and every person to be destroyed. I personally think that this had to do with degrees of sin in each city.

As for the infallibility of the Bible, once you make the decision to believe the whole thing, you will find that God is perfectly good at defending all of it - and if he can defend it against my skepticism and yours (and mine was terrible), then surely He can defend it against those who would try to alter it.

blessings
tal

 

[Nooj]

It was a moral act, because the definition of morality belongs to God, not to us. When I separate the "God of Abraham" from the "God of the New Testament", I refuse to accept Who God is. He is the same throughout history and absolutely consistent.

Do you think Jesus would have killed women and children?

 

[AV1611VET]

[delete]

 

[[serious]]

It was a moral act, because the definition of morality belongs to God

...

It's not might that makes right. It's agreement with God that makes right.

...

Except that God gave it to them, and God is never wrong.

If we simply define "moral" or "right" as "whatever God does" then it's meaningless to say God is moral or right. What makes what God does right or moral? If it's simply that he created the universe, as is argued in Job, then it most certainly is a "might makes right" argument.

 

[AV1611VET]

Do you think Jesus would have killed women and children?

We teach that Jesus was the Slayer of the firstborn in Egypt.

 

[Nooj]

We teach that Jesus was the Angel of Death in Exodus.

Interesting.

You see no justification at all the death of the firstborn of Egypt?

What did the firstborn of Egypt do wrong to deserve such a punishment? What did the Canaanite children do wrong to deserve such a fate? They just had the misfortune to be born to the wrong families.

 

[AV1611VET]

What did the firstborn of Egypt do wrong to deserve such a punishment?

I'm going to be 55 in less than a week --- the firstborn in my family is going to be 75 in September.

Don't equate "firstborn" with "youngest".

 

[talitha]

Do you think Jesus would have killed women and children?

During his life on earth in the first century? No, because it was not the time or season for that. Interestingly, however, he is quoted as saying this: "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'" (from Matthew 10, NKJV)

If we simply define "moral" or "right" as "whatever God does" then it's meaningless to say God is moral or right. What makes what God does right or moral? If it's simply that he created the universe, as is argued in Job, then it most certainly is a "might makes right" argument.

When I say God is moral and right, I am saying that it's impossible for him to be immoral or wrong, as this would defy Who He is. We cannot judge Him. It's not a matter of power. It's a matter of identity. He is who He is. The definition of sin (wrong, immoral) is to do or say anything that comes short of demonstrating who He is or lauding Him. He is the reference point for right-ness - not because He's powerful, though - it's just Who He is.

We teach that Jesus was the Angel of Death in Exodus.

Hmm, that is interesting. I don't think it says "angel of death" anywhere in the Bible, not even in the AV1611.
I just read something in a wikipedia article today that I'm really thinking about.... never thought about it this way:

The verb "pasàch" (Hebrew: &#1508;&#1464;&#1468;&#1505;&#1463;&#1495;&#8206 is first mentioned in the Torah account of the Exodus from Egypt (Exodus 12:23), and there is some debate about its exact meaning: the commonly held assumption that it means "He passed over", in reference to God "passing over" the houses of the Hebrews during the final of the Ten Plagues of Egypt, stems from the translation provided in the Septuagint (&#960;&#945;&#961;&#949;&#955;&#949;&#965;&#963;&#949;&#964;&#945;&#953; in Exodus 12:23, and &#949;&#963;&#954;&#949;&#960;&#945;&#963;&#949;&#957; in Exodus 12:27). Judging from other instances of the verb, and instances of parallelism, a more faithful translation may be "he hovered over, guarding." Indeed, this is the image used by Isaiah by his use of this verb in Isaiah. 31:5: "As birds hovering, so will the Lord of hosts protect Jerusalem; He will deliver it as He protecteth it, He will rescue it as He passeth over" (&#1499;&#1456;&#1468;&#1510;&#1460;&#1508;&#1459;&#1468;&#1512;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501; &#1506;&#1464;&#1508;&#1493;&#1465;&#1514;—&#1499;&#1461;&#1468;&#1503; &#1497;&#1464;&#1490;&#1461;&#1503; &#1497;&#1456;&#1492;&#1493;&#1464;&#1492; &#1510;&#1456;&#1489;&#1464;&#1488;&#1493;&#1465;&#1514;, &#1506;&#1463;&#1500;-&#1497;&#1456;&#1512;&#1493;&#1468;&#1513;&#1464;&#1473;&#1500;&#1460;&#1464;&#1501;; &#1490;&#1464;&#1468;&#1504;&#1493;&#1465;&#1503; &#1493;&#1456;&#1492;&#1460;&#1510;&#1460;&#1468;&#1497;&#1500;, &#1508;&#1464;&#1468;&#1505;&#1465;&#1495;&#1463; &#1493;&#1456;&#1492;&#1460;&#1502;&#1456;&#1500;&#1460;&#1497;&#1496;.) (Isaiah 31:5) Targum Onkelos translates pesach as "he had pity", The English term "Passover" came into the English language through William Tyndale's translation of the Bible, and later appeared in the King James Version as well.

I'm going to be 55 in less than a week --- the firstborn in my family is going to be 75 in September.

Don't equate "firstborn" with "youngest".

huh?

blessings
tal

 

[AV1611VET]

[delete]

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Jos 2:9-11 and said to them, "I know that the LORD has given this land to you and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you. We have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed. When we heard of it, our hearts melted and everyone's courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below.

The text above is what Rahab (a cannanite) told the Israeli spys who she hid in her house. It is clear from this that the cannanite people had knowledge of all God had done in defeating the Egyptians. Rahab because of showing kindness to the spys was spared and her whole house-hold. Through repentance, leaving their false gods, for Israels true God they could be spared. However most choose to stick to their life style of sin, and confront the Israelis rather than repent.

Jer 10:8 They are all senseless and foolish; they are taught by worthless wooden idols.

Wooden Idols allow their followers to do whatever they please rather than submit to Gods commandments. Not only are they worthless, i.e not a god they allow immorality. The whole land of Cannan was full of worthless idols. Some idols had even been assigned attributes requiring religious sacrifice of children to the fire; meaning the people had become so depraved they them selves encouraged child sacrifice, probably because of the number of unwanted pregnancies. Similar to Romans leaving unwanted babies on the streets to die.

Women and men both approved of and did these things. The only way to remove the practice completely was to anyalate the entire population. It must be noted that they all had seen what the real God had done in Egypt, so if they did not surrender them selves to him, i.e. wish to become Israelites as Rahab did they would die. The only innocent party was the children, however God chose to kill them rather than take them on in a babysitting role.

As a final note about the killing of the people, God is an eternal God, he can talk to people at their time of death and save them eternally. People in the populace who really did want the real God could have surrendered to him and be saved eternally. To back this up read the story of Ian McCormack - Heaven Hell and the Box Jellyfish this man was saved by God himself from hell, and taken to heaven; but returned to tell of his experience.

In the end "Much dreaming and many words are meaningless. Therefore stand in awe of God."

 

[Ave Maria]

As Christians, what are your thoughts on the genocide of the Canaanites? Why do you think God ordered them to do this? Do you think it was a moral act? Is it consistent with the loving nature of God in Christianity?

Here is a link to help you better understand why God ordered the extermination of the Canaanites.

Why did God command the extermination of the Canaanites, women and children included?

 

[Nooj]

In that 400-year period, it is conjectured that the Amorites and Canaanites had sunk low enough that God had to step in and do something.

Their religion was demanding the sacrifice of their children, STDs were at epidemic proportions, lawlessness was the norm, and possibly, they were becoming a threat to the entire earth.

Much longer, and another Flood would have been the answer --- but God promised never to send a global flood again.

In any case, after 400 years of squatting on land that wasn't theirs, and having 400 years to repent and refusing to do so --- God executed them.

If the Canaanites were fine, upstanding people but who were still 'squatting on land that wasn't theirs', would you think it moral for the Israelites to execute them all?

 

[AV1611VET]

If the Canaanites were fine, upstanding people but who were still 'squatting on land that wasn't theirs', would you think it moral for the Israelites to execute them all?

If the Canaanites were fine, upstanding people, the Israelites wouldn't have to be asking for their land back.

 

[talitha]

If the Canaanites were fine, upstanding people but who were still 'squatting on land that wasn't theirs', would you think it moral for the Israelites to execute them all?

Fine and upstanding by whose standards?
As DW pointed out, by human standards the Canaanites were probably "fine and upstanding". But as a Christian I have to return to the Lord as the standard and the standard-setter of goodness, morality, and "fine-up-standing-ness". And I agree with AV1611's response.....

 

[Nooj]

As DW pointed out, by human standards the Canaanites were probably "fine and upstanding". But as a Christian I have to return to the Lord as the standard and the standard-setter of goodness, morality, and "fine-up-standing-ness". And I agree with AV1611's response.....

The point is that God tells the Israelites to kill them all not because they're evil. The conquest of Canaan was never a humanitarian action. If it was the case that God was using the Israelites as his metaphorical sword to take out the baddies, then God would have used the Israelites to destroy Egypt as well (yes I know he damaged Egypt in the Exodus through the Israelites, I mean he would have annihilated them totally like he did to the Canaanites).

People use the 'Canaanites were bad' argument as a justification for the destruction of the Canaanites after the fact, but I'm wondering if they would just as likely call for the destruction of the Canaanites if the Canaanites were squeaky clean. Lets say they stopped doing the cultural practices that you find so abhorrent. No more idol building, baby sacrificing, polytheistic worshipping and everything else. But they are still living in the Land of Israel. If God told the Israelites to exterminate them, would you still be okay with that?

If the Canaanites were fine, upstanding people, the Israelites wouldn't have to be asking for their land back.

Fine. Morally upstanding except for the one problem that they've been living there for hundreds of years and don't want to budge.

 

[AV1611VET]

The point is that God tells the Israelites to kill them all not because they're evil. The conquest of Canaan was never a humanitarian action. If it was the case that God was using the Israelites as his metaphorical sword to take out the baddies, then God would have used the Israelites to destroy Egypt as well.

People use the 'Canaanites were bad' argument as a secondary justification for the destruction of the Canaanites, but I'm wondering if they would just as likely call for the destruction of the Canaanites if the Canaanites were squeaky clean. Lets say they stopped doing the cultural practices that you find so abhorrent. No more idol building, baby sacrificing, polytheistic worshipping and everything else. But they are still living in the Land of Israel. If God told the Israelites to exterminate them, would you still be okay with that?

Nooj, let's go over this again --- shall we?

God told Abraham that the Israelites would be out of the area until such time as the Amorites reached what we would call today the "point of no return".

But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

With God, He will deal with you and your sins for a time, but if you don't repent, you can eventually reach a "point of no return", where even prayer won't help you.

There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

This "point of no return" is what the Bible calls the "sin unto death".

Note here also what the LORD says about the land.

And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

You don't need to be a Rhodes Scholar to see what's going on here.

 

[Nooj]

God told Abraham that the Israelites would be out of the area until such time as the Amorites reached what we would call today the "point of no return". With God, He will deal with you and your sins for a time, but if you don't repent, you can eventually reach a "point of no return", where even prayer won't help you.This "point of no return" is what the Bible calls the "sin unto death".

Your position is basically God killed them all because they were evil.

I'm saying that can't be the whole story for why they were killed. For one thing, it doesn't make sense in a lot of ways e.g. "The Canaanites kill their children! They're barbaric! Come on men, lets go kill their children!".

Leviticus 18:1-5.

The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 2Speak to the people of Israel and say to them: I am the Lord your God. 3You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you lived, and you shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan, to which I am bringing you. You shall not follow their statutes. 4My ordinances you shall observe and my statutes you shall keep, following them: I am the Lord your God. 5You shall keep my statutes and my ordinances; by doing so one shall live: I am the Lord.

Here, God tells Moses that Egypt is evil. In fact God mentions it in the same breath as Canaan. If God wanted the Israelites to kill evil people, he'd tell them to annihilate all of Egypt. He didn't. What, were the Canaanites *more* evil than the Egyptians and so one deserved genocide and the other didn't? What you're not telling me is why the iniquities of one people were singled out of all the other evil peoples living around Canaan. I think it's obvious why. It's because one's living in future Israel and the other isn't.

I believe there is another reason. Apart from them living on the land that Israel was entitled to, God doesn't want the Israelites stained by their practices. Deuteronomy 20:17-18:

17You shall annihilate them&#8212;the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites&#8212;just as the Lord your God has commanded, 18so that they may not teach you to do all the abhorrent things that they do for their gods, and you thus sin against the Lord your God.

I'm quite confident that the Israelites wouldn't have cared if the Canaanites hung around, as long as the Canaanite culture didn't rub off on them. This purity-first obsession doesn't seem likely to have been the primary reason for the genocide, because God (almost) never tells the Israelites to put the ban on pagan cities again. If it was purity they were worried about, they could have gone on wiping out peoples for a long time yet.

But it does fits quite well into the 'I am holy, you are supposed to be holy, separate yourself from them' theme that runs through the commandments.