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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Are all these substitutions adding fitness or taking away fitness? What I mean is are they making the organism worse off or better off? It looks like it is making things worse or losing function.

You seem to be conflating losing function with a reduction in fitness. That doesn't always have to be the case. Would the LRP5/MCM6 mutations that basically shut off an intolerance to lactose after weening be an increase or decrease in fitness? In cavefish, a mutation in the ND2 gene causes eyelessness. It's energy consuming to form and maintain eyes - and that energy is an utter waste if a being lives in a completely dark environment. Would not developing eyes in a completely dark environment be an increase in fitness or a decrease?

ND2
Evidence for Multiple Genetic Forms with Similar Eyeless Phenotypes in the Blind Cavefish, Astyanax mexicanus
 
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Justatruthseeker

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You seem to be conflating losing function with a reduction in fitness. That doesn't always have to be the case. Would the LRP5/MCM6 mutations that basically shut off an intolerance to lactose after weening be an increase or decrease in fitness? In cavefish, a mutation in the ND2 gene causes eyelessness. It's energy consuming to form and maintain eyes - and that energy is an utter waste if a being lives in a completely dark environment. Would not developing eyes in a completely dark environment be an increase in fitness or a decrease?

ND2
Evidence for Multiple Genetic Forms with Similar Eyeless Phenotypes in the Blind Cavefish, Astyanax mexicanus

I would say it shows that the eye is not a mutation, but has always been present, which is why kinds in isolated environments that do not need them still have the genes for them. Now that gene may then go dormant since it is not needed, but that gene was always there, and will always be there.

I guarantee you take those same eyeless catfish and raise them in a normal environment, and within several generations those genes for the eyes will be turned right back on, and eyes they will have once again.

No mysterious steps in the evolution chain, merely what genetics has taught us, that genes that already exist become dominant or repressed.

They have just now within the last decade learned to make genes dominate or repressed reliably to approx 4 genomes. They have made chicken embryos grow teeth as they develop, not by mutating genes, but by making what already existed in the genetic sequence dominate instead of repressed.


It didn't become something else, it merely turns off or on certain sequences, sequences that existed from the beginning. They like calling them separate species, as if that makes them of different kinds, But in the end they are still catfish.

Of course if you were consistent in your trees, they wouldn't be so confused.

Catfish:

Kingdom: Animalia Phylum: Chordata Superclass: Osteichthyes Class: Actinopterygii Subclass: Neopterygii Infraclass: Teleostei Superorder: Ostariophysi Order: Siluriformes

Cat:

Kingdom: Animalia Phylum: Chordata Class: Mammalia Order: Carnivora Family: Felidae Genus: Felis Species: F. catus

So for Catfish you use the order name for kind, but in cats you place that at the Family level. And catfish you use the species name of where you place cats for the family name in catfish.

Siluriformes is then divided into family and then species. A little consistency would be nice now and then. Been trying to tell you, a cat is a cat is a cat, as a dog is a dog is a dog. And as a catfish is a catfish....

Just a little harder to tell those billions of fish apart, as it is for aves. Oh. but instead of family or order you have use the class name for kind with aves.
 
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lasthero

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I guarantee you take those same eyeless catfish and raise them in a normal environment, and within several generations those genes for the eyes will be turned right back on, and eyes they will have once again.

Really? You guarantee that? Based on what? What research? What studies? Anything?
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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I would say it shows that the eye is not a mutation...

How did you possibly arrive to the conclusion that anyone thinks the eye is a mutation based on what I wrote and the links I provided? What does this have to do with fitness?

I guarantee you take those same eyeless catfish...

Why are you talking about catfish when I never mentioned catfish? Why did you then go on for 20 more sentences about cats and fish when that has nothing to do with what I wrote or the links I provided?
 
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CabVet

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Of course if you were consistent in your trees, they wouldn't be so confused.

Catfish:

Kingdom: Animalia Phylum: Chordata Superclass: Osteichthyes Class: Actinopterygii Subclass: Neopterygii Infraclass: Teleostei Superorder: Ostariophysi Order: Siluriformes

Cat:

Kingdom: Animalia Phylum: Chordata Class: Mammalia Order: Carnivora Family: Felidae Genus: Felis Species: F. catus

You wouldn't be so confused if you concentrated on scientific names and abandoned common names, which are worth less than nothing. Or even better, you wouldn't be so confused if you knew what either taxonomy of phylogenetics were. Here are the actual names of the two organisms you are referring to:

Felis catus
Callichthys callichthys

What is next? Are you going to say that you are confused because the dog fish is not a dog? Or the bat fish is not a bat? Or the snake eel is not a snake?

Or how about other languages? Oh my! Catfish in Spanish is bagre and cat is gato, therefore evolution is not true!

Seriously, how old are you and did you attend high school?
 
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CabVet

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Why are you talking about catfish when I never mentioned catfish? Why did you then go on for 20 more sentences about cats and fish when that has nothing to do with what I wrote or the links I provided?

You provided more than enough evidence to prove your point, therefore he has to change the subject.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Loudmouth

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Over the weekend I remembered some exchanges in the past where I'd cited melanocytes in roses as a potential falsification for evolution and the golden zebrafish was tossed back at me. Obviously fish =/= rose so their objection fell flat, but it was an interesting find that continues to provide insight into melanin regulation in vertebrates and hair and skin color in humans.
Pmch1 and Pmch2
Characterization of two melanin-concentrating ... [J Comp Neurol. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI

A fish of a different color
SLC24A5
SLC24A5, a Putative Cation Exchanger, Affects Pigmentation in Zebrafish and Humans

The pathway for melanin production appears to be well conserved amongst vertebrates. Since there are a limited set of proteins in that pathway it is not surprising that changes in melanin production are due to mutations in the same genes for different species.
 
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sfs

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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Found an interesting paper on the origin of Avian chromosomes with emphasis on fusions and fissions.
Origin of amphibian and avian chromosomes by fission, fusion, and retention of ancestral chromosomes

Using linkage relationships from the amphibian maps, we predict that three chicken chromosomes originated by fusion, nine to 14 originated by fission, and 12–17 evolved directly from ancestral tetrapod chromosomes. We further show that some ancestral segments were fused prior to the divergence of salamanders and anurans, while others fused independently and randomly as chromosome numbers were reduced in lineages leading to Ambystoma and Xenopus. The maintenance of gene order relationships between chromosomal segments that have greatly expanded and contracted in salamander and chicken genomes, respectively, suggests selection to maintain synteny relationships and/or extremely low rates of chromosomal rearrangement. Overall, the results demonstrate the value of data from diverse, amphibian genomes in studies of vertebrate genome evolution.​
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Transferring some posts in another thread here. MHY16 and jaw muscle development. SRGAP2C and brain development.
... it's possible an increase in the human brain resulted from a mutation in a gene regulating jaw muscle development.
From smaller jaws to larger brains? | Penn Current
MYH16 gene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

eta - just found this Facebook regarding mutations and brain development.
A duplicated gene shaped human brain evolution… and why the genome project missed it : Not Exactly Rocket Science
Two groups led by Evan Eichler and Franck Polleux have found that humans, alone among all animals, have three extra copies of a gene called SRGAP2, which is involved in brain development. The second of these copies, SRGAP2C, is particularly interesting because it affects the development of neurons, and produces features that are distinctively human. It also emerged between 2 and 3 million years ago, during the time when our brains became much bigger.​

Human-specific evolution of novel SRGAP2 genes by incomplete segmental duplication
It is intriguing that the general timing of the potentially functional copies, SRGAP2B and SRGAP2C, corresponds to the emergence of the genus Homo from Australopithecus (2–3 mya). This period of human evolution has been associated with the expansion of the neocortex, use of stone tools, as well as dramatic changes in behavior and culture (Jobling et al., 2004).​
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Sonic Hedgehog and Hand2 involved in whale leg development (well, more accurately, the lack thereof).
How ancient whales lost their legs, got sleek and conquered the oceans » News » University of Florida

The D-FW digital PBS station ran a Your Inner Fish marathon today. I'd seen "Your Inner Reptile" and "Your Inner Monkey" (parts 2 and 3) but had never seen "Your Inner Fish". Part of it was dedicated to the Sonic Hedgehog gene and how it effects limb development. It's also an ancient gene found in relatives as distant as sharks and skates.
Scattergood Biology » Chapter Three: Handy Genes.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Richard Dawkins discussed gene duplication in The Ancestor's Tale, specifically in the Lamprey's Tale. Here are a few papers I've found that delve into globin gene duplication from the time of jawless fishes to modern vertebrates.

Gene duplication, genome duplication, and the functional diversification of vertebrate globins.
Gene duplication, genome duplication, and the functional diversific... - PubMed - NCBI
The globin gene repertoire of lampreys: Convergent evolution of hemoglobin and myoglobin in jawed and jawless vertebrates
The globin gene repertoire of lampreys: Convergent evolution of hemoglobin and myoglobin in jawed and jawless vertebrates


Also found another paper on while evolution to go along with the one about Shh/Hand2 leading to the loss of hind legs in Cetaceans. This one covers the development of flippers due to changes in Hoxd12 and Hoxd13.

Adaptive evolution of 5'HoxD genes in the origin and diversification of the cetacean flipper.
Adaptive evolution of 5'HoxD genes in the origin and diversificatio... - PubMed - NCBI
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Split Rock

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Just pointed to the assumptions. The assumptions that substitutions must have taken place. There exists not one single piece of scientific evidence to even make that assumption. They then "infer" that based upon the assumption that substitutions happened, that the acceleration levels correlate the assumptions.

You are attempting to prove an inferred correlation based upon an assumption, then claim it as fact.

....

Just don't expect me to accept your guesses as facts, and all will be well. Especially when the facts seem to require you to do a major revision every few years as new technology proves the last theory wrong. But let's pretend the base assumptions are correct, that it is just everything else observation always falsifies.

Look at how many times you used the following words:

Assumption(s): 7
Infer/ Inferred: 2

In reality, the only assumption we are making is that natural phenomena are explainable via natural mechanims. That is the only assumption.

We know that DNA substitutions occur. We can see differences in the DNA sequence between parents and offspring, that are explainable with substitution mutations. The inference we make is that these differences are do to nucleotide sustitutions.

We know that evolution occurs. Gene frequencies of populations change over time. We know mutations occur. When we see differences between populations or species, the inference we use to explain them is evolution. That inference is based on the theory of evolution, which is the only scientific theory that explains the diversity and distribution of life on earth.

The assumptions you claim we use are all inferences based on the physical data. You just want to call them assumptions and guesses because you don't like them.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Justatruthseeker

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Yes, they have been observed and are observed all the time, you have no idea what you are talking about. You can take a lab mouse, blast radiation at a certain portion of the genome and cause a substitution to happen.

How do you think courts do DNA tests? Or paternity tests? The only reason those tests are possible is because of substitutions. They are so predictable, that we can say with very high confidence how related two people are.

Here are a few of thousands of examples of substitutions happening:

APOBEC3B can impair genomic stability by inducing base substitutions in genomic DNA in human cells : Scientific Reports : Nature Publishing Group

DNA alteration induced by ultraviolet light in human metaphase chromosomes substituted with 5′-bromodeoxy uridine: monitoring by monoclonal antibodies to double-stranded and single stranded DNA - Springer

Vitamin B-12 Deficiency Induces Anomalies of Base Substitution and Methylation in the DNA of Rat Colonic Epithelium

I just cannot believe I am arguing such a basic concept, this is evidence from 1981:

Radiation-induced base substitution mutagenesis in single-stranded DNA phage M13

Lets study your very first link for starters and look at the key words.

"is capable of editing immunoglobulin" So it was edited from what already existed - can we all say transcription class?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcription_(genetics)

Can we all say taking what already existed and simply writing it into a different format????

Of course we can't say that - that would go against your religious belief in evolution - even if it is simple genetic fact.
 
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Aggie

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I came across this essay that appears to hypothesize that some ERV DNA in the genome is not exogenous, but are remnants of viruses that formed in the genome and then became exogenous. Am I reading it wrong?
http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j27_3/j27_3_105-112.pdf

He seems to be arguing that ERVs are descended from VIGEs (Variation Inducing Genetic Elements).

Instead of just arguing with the YECs who populate this forum, I think it would be more useful if the people here could focus on answering the arguments from professional creation scientists like this paper's author. Most parts of Talk.Origins haven't been updated since 2005, so at the moment there's no mainstream response to a lot of the more recent and technical creationist arguments. This seems to be especially the case in the area of genetics.
 
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