Genesis "and it was good" problem:

[All Becomes New]

Perfect was used interchangeably back then with the word "mature."

Please show me the verse your are referring to?

It's in my first post of this thread.

 

[Diamond72]

It is mythical literature, not history.

The Bible is BOTH literal and symbolic. Adam and Eve were real people with real DNA that science can identify. They are the common ancestors for the people we read about in the Bible. The genealogies in the Bible are very accurate. There is overwhelming scientific evidence to show us the Bible is accurate and true. There is no evidence to show us the Bible is not accurate and true. I know two college professors that taught history. They both tell me there is a lot of revisionism.

 

[Diamond72]

Perfect was used interchangeably back then with the word "mature."

Many times I would ask my parents what a word means. They would always tell me to look it up in the dictionary for myself. I use to use Strongs and Smiths dictionary for my Bible study. In the Greek this comes from the word telescope.

​

Strong's Concordance teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect​ Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: teleios Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os) Definition: having reached its end, complete, perfect Usage: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character. HELPS Word-studies Cognate: 5046 téleios (an adjective, derived from 5056 /télos, "consummated goal") – mature (consummated) from going through the necessary stages to reach the end-goal, i.e. developed into a consummating completion by fulfilling the necessary process (spiritual journey). See 5056 (telos).

 

[All Becomes New]

Many times I would ask my parents what a word means. They would always tell me to look it up in the dictionary for myself. I use to use Strongs and Smiths dictionary for my Bible study. In the Greek this comes from the word telescope.

​

Strong's Concordance teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect​ Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: teleios Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os) Definition: having reached its end, complete, perfect Usage: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character. HELPS Word-studies Cognate: 5046 téleios (an adjective, derived from 5056 /télos, "consummated goal") – mature (consummated) from going through the necessary stages to reach the end-goal, i.e. developed into a consummating completion by fulfilling the necessary process (spiritual journey). See 5056 (telos).

Given my involvement with this matter, I will say I was talking about Hebrew, not Greek.

 

[GenemZ]

Given my involvement with this matter, I will say I was talking about Hebrew, not Greek.

What does the Septuagint say? God's thinking remains the same from one language to another when it involves truth of His word. .

 

[Diamond72]

Given my involvement with this matter, I will say I was talking about Hebrew, not Greek.

Do you mean like the sacrificial lamb that is to be without spot, blemish or wrinkle. This is the same as the Bride of Christ. He is coming for His Bride and if she is not ready, she will get left behind.

Ephesians 5:27, KJV: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

 

[All Becomes New]

What does the Septuagint say? God's thinking remains the same from one language to another when it involves truth of His word. .

There are discrepancies between the Hebrew and the Septuagint.

But the word they use in the Septuagint is τελειος.

 

[Diamond72]

There are discrepancies between the Hebrew and the Septuagint.

In Bible college, they teach that we determine the meaning of a word by context. The Rabbis have a different approach because of their understanding of the Hebrew letters and their symbolic meaning. The first letter in this word has to do with a vov or male energy and zion or female energy. Joined together under the wedding canopy. This is why male and female become one. As we are the Bride and we are to become one with Jesus. This is why we are joint heirs with Christ. If we are perfected with Him. (Romans 8:17)

 

[AV1611VET]

Genesis 1 describes how God created the heavens and the earth, "and it was good." This statement is repeated multiple times in Genesis 1.

I've heard from many people (including myself) who believe that Creation, at the beginning, was perfect. Everything was good, and there was nothing bad about it.

And I've believed this for a very long time, until I got into a lengthy discussion with someone, and read more closely in Genesis 2... "God saw that it was not good for the man to be alone." But God created everything so far, and "it was good". Here it says that "it was not good." How do you reconcile these two passages?

God hadn't finished creating yet.

Genesis 2 is what is called a "frame story".

A story within a story that supplements the main story.

 

[GenemZ]

God hadn't finished creating yet.

Genesis 2 is what is called a "frame story".

A story within a story that supplements the main story.

What did He finish creating after Genesis 1?

 

[AV1611VET]

What did He finish creating after Genesis 1?

Eve

Here are Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 in chronological order:


Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Genesis 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 ¶ And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 ¶ And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 ¶ And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 ¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27a So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him;
Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 ¶ And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 ¶ And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 ¶ And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 ¶ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

There are discrepancies between the Hebrew and the Septuagint.

But the word they use in the Septuagint is τελειος.

Genesis 1:4 in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and English:

וירא אלהים את־האור כי־טוב ויבדל אלהים בין האור ובין החשׁך׃ Gen. 1:4

Gen. 1:4 καὶ εἶδεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ φῶς ὅτι καλόν. καὶ διεχώρισεν ὁ θεὸς ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ φωτὸς καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ σκότους.

Gen. 1:4 et vidit Deus lucem quod esset bona et divisit lucem ac tenebras

Gen. 1:4. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.. (NRSVUE)

In the Septuagint, the Hebrew word טוֹב (good) is translated as “καλόν” (the neuter singular form of the adjective καλós used in the nominative case). In the Latin Vulgate, the Hebrew word טוֹב (good) is translated as “bona.”)

The standard Greek-English lexicon used today in Bible colleges, seminaries and universities is the Third Edition (2000) of A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, commonly cited by scholars today as the BDAG. It tells us that the Greek word καλós expresses the concept that is expressed in English using the word good “good.”

The identical Hebrew word is used in Genesis 2:18 with the same meaning.

 

[Tolworth John]

"God saw that it was not good for the man to be alone."

How does a statement about the situation of a person invalidate statements about the process of creation?

When asked did you have a good day at work today? Have you had to have every single moment as good, or is it possible to have a bad ten minutes and still call the day good?

 

[Lukamu]

Sorry, let me clarify: the original point of the discussion is DID GOD CREATE EVIL, the argument being that if God created everything (he did), and if evil currently exists (it does), then God created evil.

My rebuttal is that IN THE BEGINNING God created the heavens and the earth (i.e., everything), AND IT WAS GOOD (i.e., without blemish, without evil). But due to free will, His creation rebelled and created evil. God did not create evil, we did.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Sorry, let me clarify: the original point of the discussion is DID GOD CREATE EVIL, the argument being that if God created everything (he did), and if evil currently exists (it does), then God created evil.

My rebuttal is that IN THE BEGINNING God created the heavens and the earth (i.e., everything), AND IT WAS GOOD (i.e., without blemish, without evil). But due to free will, His creation rebelled and created evil. God did not create evil, we did.

You also have to account for the fact that God didn't call the Darkness "good," as I was saying back up in my earlier post.

And while it's not a further point of proof for me to say it, John reports in his Gospel that Jesus says that our human evil and sin comes because we prefer the Darkness.

Again, I'm not offering this as a point of exegetical proof. It's just a talking point and perhaps something to think about.

Anyway, this is an interesting thread, Lukamu. Thanks!

 

[Lulav]

Genesis 1 describes how God created the heavens and the earth, "and it was good." This statement is repeated multiple times in Genesis 1.

I've heard from many people (including myself) who believe that Creation, at the beginning, was perfect. Everything was good, and there was nothing bad about it.

And I've believed this for a very long time, until I got into a lengthy discussion with someone, and read more closely in Genesis 2... "God saw that it was not good for the man to be alone." But God created everything so far, and "it was good". Here it says that "it was not good." How do you reconcile these two passages?

Have you noticed that not everything was 'good' or Tov.

First day - Good
Second day -------- It doesn't say it was Good, it says: and it was so
Third day - it was Good
Fourth day - it was good
Fifth Day - It was Good
Sixth Day - It was very Good

 

[Lulav]

Sorry, let me clarify: the original point of the discussion is DID GOD CREATE EVIL, the argument being that if God created everything (he did), and if evil currently exists (it does), then God created evil.

My rebuttal is that IN THE BEGINNING God created the heavens and the earth (i.e., everything), AND IT WAS GOOD (i.e., without blemish, without evil). But due to free will, His creation rebelled and created evil. God did not create evil, we did.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[public hermit]

Sorry, let me clarify: the original point of the discussion is DID GOD CREATE EVIL, the argument being that if God created everything (he did), and if evil currently exists (it does), then God created evil.

My rebuttal is that IN THE BEGINNING God created the heavens and the earth (i.e., everything), AND IT WAS GOOD (i.e., without blemish, without evil). But due to free will, His creation rebelled and created evil. God did not create evil, we did.

That's a helpful clarification. I don't think free will gets God off the hook. At the very least, God created creatures who could turn from the good and chose evil. Either that's a design flaw, which is not acceptable since those creatures are created good and we can safely assume God doesn't make mistakes,, or God knew creatures would chose evil. If the latter, then the Creator bears some responsibility, if not for evil choices, then for redeeming the creation in light of God creating creatures who God knew would choose wrongly.

I think it's also important to ask why creatures in a paradisical setting would choose evil, which is essentially choosing against their own good. The fact, according the the Genesis account, that they were able to be deceived is telling. This is why I reject Augustine's reading that basically says they were in a state of near perfection and then fell. Irenaeus's intuition that they were created spiritually immature and reached for the fruit too soon makes more sense. So, again, God knew this was the case and bears responsibility for God's own creation, which the scriptures support. If evil were solely a human problem and responsibility, grace would be unnecessary. But as Paul recognized, God has subjected all to disobedience so that God may be merciful to all.

 

[AV1611VET]

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The evil that God created was necessary evil, as opposed to pure evil.

 

[GenemZ]

Eve

Here are Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 in chronological order:


Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Genesis 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 ¶ And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 ¶ And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 ¶ And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 ¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27a So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him;
Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 ¶ And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 ¶ And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 ¶ And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 ¶ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

God already created [bara] Eve's soul in Genesis 1:27. And, Adam's soul, as well.

So God created [bara] man in his own image,
in the image of God he created [bara] them;
male and female he created [bara] them."

The Hebrew word for 'creating something out from nothing' is 'bara.'

What took place in Genesis 2? It was not 'bara.' In fact, the Lord took the elements of the earth (which were created [bara] in Genesis1 and 'molded and formed (jatsar) a body for that male soul to inhabit.

Then, later the Lord put Adam in a deep sleep and took from his side bone and flesh. What the Lord did with the removed bone and flesh was to 'bana' - to build a body from that substance taken from Adam's side. Just like He took a few loaves and a few fish to feed the thousands, He built up a body for the woman's soul to inhabit.

Know your Hebrew. We need to stop guessing from English translations when its critical to understanding Truth.

Hebrew words could have specific meanings that we can easily misunderstand when loosely translated. Too much confusion and subjective thinking is given free reign when that's all we have to work with.


If you want to know where I learned this from? It was taught in church by my pastor/scholar.

Billy Graham once asked him to become his private mentor, but was turned down because of the high demand from the church members. This man is one of only a few who actually would give in depth exegesis of the Scriptures while he taught his congregation. Only a few have been qualified to do so by God. ( James 3:1)

Many in-depth lessons are free of charge. No money asked for. R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries | Home

grace and peace ........