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Genesis and condemnation

HTacianas

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Do you hold any views on Genesis, creationism, evolution, theistic evolution, etc., strong enough that you consider it heresy to disagree with?

Do you know of anyone or any group or any church that does?

What is your (or their) reasoning for that belief?
 

Brotherly Spirit

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Personally I believe God created life but designed a system of law and order which governs the universe. This includes the natural law here on our world and evolution too. Not biblical specifically, though in scriptures God is authoritative that he brings order to chaos and let's himself be known in others. Whether it's him presenting himself as a cloud in the sky or burning bush to Moses, also in Genesis 1:14-17 is a great example of creation having an order and purpose (true though the first chapter as He creates certain things each day from the first to the last).

I'm not smart enough to judge with certainty what the all knowing and all powerful God planned and did. In my mind we're all in the same boat trying to reach our destination, but none of us knows the path and only has an idea. Is creationism literal or metaphorical, comes down to how we're suppose to understand Genesis; which is only possible through Christ in the Church (fellowship). Long as we honestly share our beliefs and test our faith, support and practice what can be closely found or related to scriptures and Jesus I wouldn't condemn any person (never would).
 
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St_Worm2

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Do you hold any views on Genesis, creationism, evolution, theistic evolution, etc., strong enough that you consider it heresy to disagree with?

Do you know of anyone or any group or any church that does?

What is your (or their) reasoning for that belief?
If memory serves, the EOC has remained steadfastly YEC, with no dissenters within her official ranks whatsoever, even in the last 200 years. So does the EOC consider TE to be heresy?

I'm not sure of my denomination's official stance, but since I know both TE and YEC senior pastors within our denomination, I suppose it is another issue, like Calvinism and Arminianism, that we allow a lot of personal wiggle room on (we take an agnostic stance on a few, specific areas of the faith, allowing our individual congregations and/or congregants to decide what to believe for themselves), so I do not believe that we would call one belief or the other, heresy (though we would consider atheistic evolution to be heretical, of course). I am personally/strongly YEC, just FYI.

--David
 
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HTacianas

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If memory serves, the EOC has remained steadfastly YEC, with no dissenters within her official ranks whatsoever, even in the last 200 years. So does the EOC consider TE to be heresy?

I'm not sure of my denomination's official stance, but since I know both TE and YEC senior pastors within our denomination, I suppose it is another issue, like Calvinism and Arminianism, that we allow a lot of personal wiggle room on (we take an agnostic stance on a few, specific areas of the faith, allowing our individual congregations and/or congregants to decide what to believe for themselves), so I do not believe that we would call one belief or the other, heresy (though we would consider atheistic evolution to be heretical, of course). I am personally/strongly YEC, just FYI.

--David

The Orthodox Churches have no definitive teaching on it. You can find every opinion under the sun in the Church regarding creation. Since the advent of modern earth sciences there hasn't been an Ecumenical Council to define it.
 
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akaDaScribe

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I'm not sure about heresy, but I do think there is a certain mindset in this age that science trumps all. It is ironic to me since the fall came from eating from the tree of knowledge. I do think there is a danger of some in the church putting more faith in science than in God and the Bible.
 
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St_Worm2

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The Orthodox Churches have no definitive teaching on it. You can find every opinion under the sun in the Church regarding creation. Since the advent of modern earth sciences there hasn't been an Ecumenical Council to define it.
Interesting. It sounds like I may have remembered incorrectly then, that all have continued to hold to YEC, even in the last century or two. I'll see if I can locate the article that I was referring to, and if I can, I'll post a link to it (this article was looking at the historic opinion of your theologians, doctors and priests, though again, it sounds like I may have be remembering incorrectly).
 
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Brotherly Spirit

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I'm not sure about heresy, but I do think there is a certain mindset in this age that science trumps all. It is ironic to me since the fall came from eating from the tree of knowledge. I do think there is a danger of some in the church putting more faith in science than in God and the Bible.

Isn't that specific to good and evil, morally deciding for ourselves and others what's right and wrong? Science is less about morality and more about understanding, searching and learning about what's there or yet to be found. God created our surroundings on earth and in heavens, and science is our exploration and discovery of it. But I agree, whether it's science or religion we shouldn't put too much faith in people who're by nature flawed.
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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Do you hold any views on Genesis, creationism, evolution, theistic evolution, etc., strong enough that you consider it heresy to disagree with?

Do you know of anyone or any group or any church that does?

What is your (or their) reasoning for that belief?

Does the concept of heresy really have any meaning in a church that isn't unified and has no overarching authority to say such a thing. I think about the back and forth between the eastern orthodox and roman catholic. They could denounce each other, but what difference did that make? To this day, each thinks they are the true church. And, then there is the ever-multiplying protestant divide. So, what is the value to calling something heresy, even if you strongly disagree?
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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Isn't that specific to good and evil, morally deciding for ourselves and others what's right and wrong? Science is less about morality and more about understanding, searching and learning about what's there or yet to be found. God created our surroundings on earth and in heavens, and science is our exploration and discovery of it. But I agree, whether it's science or religion we shouldn't put too much faith in people who're by nature flawed.

But, that is only what you perceive, because you have bought the lies they speak and enforce. Do you honestly believe you can divorce yourself from right and wrong AND GOD and find true understanding? Divorced from morals, people have lied about facts more than once.
 
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Brotherly Spirit

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But, that is only what you perceive, because you have bought the lies they speak and enforce. Do you honestly believe you can divorce yourself from right and wrong AND GOD and find true understanding? Divorced from morals, people have lied about facts more than once.

"But I agree, whether it's science or religion we shouldn't put too much faith in people who're by nature flawed."

There's multiple religions, denominations, interpretations, expectations of morality. Not a single understanding of right and wrong or about God as a whole. It's not much different than science when it has flawed people deciding what's true or false. Clarifying what I said, it's the opposite as we need a tested set of morals for consideration and discernment. So when people claim something religiously or scientifically, we have a sturdy base to honestly seek and accept the truth. (I have faith in God but not myself or others, we don't certainly know everything about anything.)
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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"But I agree, whether it's science or religion we shouldn't put too much faith in people who're by nature flawed."

There's multiple religions, denominations, interpretations, expectations of morality. Not a single understanding of right and wrong or about God as a whole. It's not much different than science when it has flawed people deciding what's true or false. Clarifying what I said, it's the opposite as we need a tested set of morals for consideration and discernment. So when people claim something religiously or scientifically, we have a sturdy base to honestly seek and accept the truth. (I have faith in God but not myself or others, we don't certainly know everything about anything.)

What you said is totally consistent with Scripture. I think of the verse in 1 Cor 13: "For now we see through a glass darkly, but THEN face-to-face." I look forward to that day!

That is why I struggle with religious groups who trust too much in their political councils to re-discern what was said in Scripture, based on what they perceive to be new information coming from a group whose majority practitioners don't start from a position of accepting God and often lie to deceive others. Barring Divine intervention to change my mind, I will enter eternity with the belief that those who were closest to Jesus had the best understanding of the Truth.
 
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joshua 1 9

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"But I agree, whether it's science or religion we shouldn't put too much faith in people who're by nature flawed."
Perfect means to be finished. When Jesus said: "It is finish" that was the point in time when God's work was finished. Yet from the beginning what God says He is going to do, HE does. The work He does in us is a perfect work. The world He created is a perfect world. The race has already been won, we already have victory in battle, we are more then overcomers. Because God's word always accomplished His purpose.

In the beginning we have Heaven and Earth. Jesus teaches us to pray: "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven". The Kingdom of God is in us and the day will come when the Kingdoms of this world will become the Kingdoms of God. Forever and always. So the Earth will become as Heaven in the way that Jesus prayed.

We should live our life by the finished works of calvery. God's word is complete and finished. He always accomplishes His plan and purpose. His word always does what HE sends His Word to do. Jeremiah 1:12 “You have observed correctly,” said the LORD, “for I am watching over My word to accomplish it.” Isaiah 55:11 " My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it. "
 
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Dale

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The Seventh Day Adventists hold to a rigidly creationist view. For instance, a couple of years ago, the President of the SDA church made a speech where he said that teachers in SDA schools who don't believe in creationism should leave.
 
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Dale

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There are churches where I live where the pastor preaches that there is creationsim and there is atheism and there is nothing else. Liberal Christianity or even nonliteral interpretation of the Bible is said to be a sham. There is one such church within walking distance of my home. I don't know that these churches are part of a denomination, or if they are, I don't know what they call it.

I have seen the pastor of one such church scrathing his head trying to figure out why the young people keep leaving.
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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The Seventh Day Adventists hold to a rigidly creationist view. For instance, a couple of years ago, the President of the SDA church made a speech where he said that teachers in SDA schools who don't believe in creationism should leave.

You do realize that public schools and universities do the same thing, except they aren't privately funded. They are publicly funded. Public funding should mean that all sides--who are involved with public monies--should be included. But it hasn't and as a result kids go to school to be brainwashed with lies.

So, if public monies (which include my monies) can be used to pay for indoctrinating kids in evolution--which I stand against-- without being expected to share equally what I believe, why can't a privately funded institution expect those they support to believe what their funders value?

You didn't say they didn't allow them to what others believe, you just said they have to claim to believe in creationism.

I don't understand what is wrong with that?
 
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NobleMouse

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Regardless of what any of us here think or would like to believe, what does the Bible actually say, what did Jesus say, the authors of the OT & NT? It would seem clear that every piece of evidence from God's word (if that's our authority) is in favor of God being the author of creation, that all things were made through Jesus (the word made flesh), and creation took place as it is written. To imagine otherwise is to take man's word over God's as the authority.
 
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Dale

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You do realize that public schools and universities do the same thing, except they aren't privately funded. They are publicly funded. Public funding should mean that all sides--who are involved with public monies--should be included. But it hasn't and as a result kids go to school to be brainwashed with lies.

So, if public monies (which include my monies) can be used to pay for indoctrinating kids in evolution--which I stand against-- without being expected to share equally what I believe, why can't a privately funded institution expect those they support to believe what their funders value?

You didn't say they didn't allow them to what others believe, you just said they have to claim to believe in creationism.

I don't understand what is wrong with that?


I am an unlikely defender of our schools and colleges, but try this.

It can be argued that before the nineteenth century, all Christians were creationists, although even this can be disputed. However, since 1950, modern creationists have built up a series of claims that are both unknown to traditional Christianity and rejected by modern science. They claim that the number of Biblical kinds does not change. But what is a Biblical kind? There is no accepted definition. Overall, creationists don't have a coherent narrative to present.

The purpose of science classes is not to present beliefs but to present theories which are the best current explanation of the available evidence. There is no doubt that many species that once lived are now extinct. There is no doubt that species have changed in the past and that they continue to do so.

Do you doubt that modern medicine saves lives? Medicine draws on biology, a science whose conclusions creationists don't accept.
 
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Dale

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Regardless of what any of us here think or would like to believe, what does the Bible actually say, what did Jesus say, the authors of the OT & NT? It would seem clear that every piece of evidence from God's word (if that's our authority) is in favor of God being the author of creation, that all things were made through Jesus (the word made flesh), and creation took place as it is written. To imagine otherwise is to take man's word over God's as the authority.


I completely agree that God is the author of creation, but you have to realize that the Bible is not a science text, nor is it a history text or a geography text. The Bible is not intended to explain the physical world to us.

Did creation take place "as it is written"? In my experience, even creationists can't make sense out of the six days of creation as it is written. I have talked to one creationist who was disturbed because that Bible doesn't say that God created undersea plants, or mention when they were created. I have talked to another creationist who was baffled because plants were created before the sun was created. How do plants grow without the sun? The confusion comes from taking the details too seriously.
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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I am an unlikely defender of our schools and colleges, but try this.

It can be argued that before the nineteenth century, all Christians were creationists, although even this can be disputed. However, since 1950, modern creationists have built up a series of claims that are both unknown to traditional Christianity and rejected by modern science. They claim that the number of Biblical kinds does not change. But what is a Biblical kind? There is no accepted definition. Overall, creationists don't have a coherent narrative to present.

The purpose of science classes is not to present beliefs but to present theories which are the best current explanation of the available evidence. There is no doubt that many species that once lived are now extinct. There is no doubt that species have changed in the past and that they continue to do so.

Do you doubt that modern medicine saves lives? Medicine draws on biology, a science whose conclusions creationists don't accept.

There is no proof to macro-evolution. Nobody has ever seen two of one kind produce another kind. it is one thing to have a bird produce a bird, but evolution's claims far exceed that. That is not science, that is belief. So, you are selling one belief over another belief.

The big bang suggests that without cause nothing suddenly exploded and produced everything. There is no precedent. A Bible-believing Christian says God produced everything from nothing. Furthermore, explosions have never been known to produce order. They produce chaos. Yet, your science claims the exact opposite happened with this explosion that happened without a cause. Which is more reasonable--even within the context of what science claims to promote? So, the big bang without God requires far more belief than a big bang theory with God as the cause.

When did science cross from reason to unreason? When it demanded that God, the most likely cause of everything, had to be taken out of the equation.

Creationism is also belief. That is true. Nobody can go back and prove how it all began and nobody, despite many fraudulent attempts has ever produced a missing link to show the movement from an ape to a human, for example. You have to believe one source or the other. Everyone has that choice. But, for you to say one is belief and the other is "science" is clearly wrong if you could take a step back and look at the evidence.

The study of different disciplines of science, like biology, has produced much good. I don't think science is all bad, because some scientists deceive others, just like I don't believe all Christianity is bad because some professing Christians--who may even be deceived themselves--deceive others.

Biology has taught us many things. Drug companies make a lot of money off those medicines. Some that hurt people badly are also marketed until pulled, because money talks over ethics often. Biology also helped us learn how to kill unborn babies as well. Biology participated in helping us learn how to gas people. Just because biology oversteps its bounds and just because biology often is used for evil, just like religion, doesn't mean you throw it out.

So, when you choose to teach only one belief, you are rubber stamping that belief to ignorant children who think their teacher is the source of knowledge. I know teachers and I was a teacher. They aren't the source of knowledge. But, that is what little kids think. So, when we only present one side (regardless of which is correct), we predispose them to that side.

In the public sector, tax payers, which include God-believers (which includes creationists) have an equal right to have a general creation view presented in contrast to the non-creationist viewpoint or choice to go to a publicly funded school that presents the creationist view.

In contrast, in the private sector, where people pay to have their kids privately educated by people, who in theory, share their values, they have the right to have demand that whoever is teaching their child reflects their views. They are paying and expecting that.

And, there are private schools that have nothing to do with God and they are free to promote evolution all they want. They are private institutions.

But, public institutions, it needs to be both sides fairly presented.
 
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