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Genesis 1 and the 7 day week

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shernren

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the Babylonians counted days from morning's dawn to mornings, the Romans from midnight to midnight, and the Hebrews from evening's dusk to dusk.

Well, I was wrong then. I've learned something new today! :D

Just my opinion, of course, but this 7-day-week issue totally undercuts YECism.

I completely agree. My personal example of this is like walking into a bank with a dubious-looking cheque, going to great lengths to prove that it is legit, and then not cashing the cheque in at all.

YECism goes nuts whenever someone accuses the Scriptures of being untrue, or even being mythical, and yet it throws out the baby with the bathwater so that AiG won't even say anything about the Sabbath other than that it supports the creation account - which completely ignores the fact that the creation account quite obviously supports the Sabbath as well, and in fact that is the more obvious and important relationship than the first. Note that the Bible's conclusion is always "the creation week, therefore the Sabbath" - "the Sabbath commandment, which by the by I won't commit myself to saying anything else about, therefore the creation week" to me seems to be an entirely modern invention.

This really dents YEC's credibility in my eyes.
 
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jereth

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rmwilliamsll said:
Yet the exact same argument made here about a 7 day calendar is what YECist propose about the various flood stories. Commonality because of common descent from an event.

More than that:
- AiG frequently claims Chinese characters are based on Edenic images (tree, snake, etc.)
- Stories of dragons and lochness monsters supposedly come from a common human experience of livnig with dinosaurs.

Now these are just legends and myths -- they become distorted rapidly with time.

A basic unit of time, however (eg. 7-day week) sticks tenaciously within society once adopted. YECs still haven't even bothered trying to explain how such a fundamental fact of existence could have universally disappeared within 20 generations. Remarkable, given how YECs are so fond of telling us how technologically and intellectually advanced antediluvean civilisation was.

(I'd be more willing to accept that a bunch of savages and cave men quickly gave up on timekeeping -- but YECs don't believe in cave men do they.)

Here is AiG arguing that the 7-day creation is the foundation of our 7-day week:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/overheads/pages/oh20011005_82.asp
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v18/i1/sixdays.asp

"Here we find that God tells us that He deliberately took six days and rested for one as a pattern for man—this is where the seven-day week comes from. The seven-day week has no basis for existing except from Scripture."

Shernren said:
I completely agree. My personal example of this is like walking into a bank with a dubious-looking cheque, going to great lengths to prove that it is legit, and then not cashing the cheque in at all.

You're right, shernren, but I think that YECs can argue something like: "sabbath only had relevance up until Christ, Christ ushers in a new creation that supercedes the old (7-day) creation."

But they still have to explain how the 7-day week, supposedly a fundamental principle written into the fabric of creation itself, could have been abandoned for 2000 years until the Babylonians "rediscovered" it through astrology.
 
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shernren

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You're right, shernren, but I think that YECs can argue something like: "sabbath only had relevance up until Christ, Christ ushers in a new creation that supercedes the old (7-day) creation."

Of course they can. But it is telling that most of the time, the first time YECs hear about Sabbatarianism, they hear it from TEs, myself included (back when I was a YEC and joined these forums). My point is not so much that Sabbatarianism is an insurmountable issue for YECism, but it is such a largely ignored issue for YECism.
 
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XianSamurai

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YECism has diverted everyone's attention away from the text of Gen 1. It is ALL about the Sabbath. The entire structure is that of Creation Week which is a justification of work-6 and rest-1.
Again, where do you get this "it's ALL about the Sabbath"?? Just because it's six days and one day of God resting does not make the Sabbath the "focus" of creation. The focus of creation is man, not the Sabbath (Mark 2:27).

There is NO evidence for a 7 day week earlier than the Mesopotamians
So this whole thing is just an argument from silence??

What we have in Genesis is a list of

1st work of creation, followed by
Evening and morning day 1

2nd work of creation
Evening and morning a 2nd day
.
.

6th work of creation
Evening and morning the 6th day

Now because a biblical doesn't start until the evening, the first work of creation was finished before 'day 1' began, that is, before the evening begins in verse 5. The second work of creation was finished by the time 'a 2nd day' began and so on. In fact the entire work of creation was completed before the start of 'the 6th day'.

Literal biblical calendar days do not fit the account in Genesis 1, other than to tell us they weren't calendar days
Just because the phrase "evening and morning, the x day" appears as the last detail of each day does not mean that the days events preceded it. God forming man in chapter 2 did not happen after God made man in chapter 1 - they are the same event. Just because it is stated later doesn't mean there were two creations of man. There is a topical order, not merely a chronological order.

Come now, guys. Wake up. So now you want us to believe that God made a special point of creating the world in 7 days, but that He intended this to be meaningless as far as humanity was concerned until the time of Moses 2700 years later ??!?

So the whole point of creating the world in 7 days was that one nation would observe the sabbath for a mere 1300 years (out of 6000 and counting)?

Like rmwilliamsll, I grew up in a strongly sabbatarian church.
Yes, you "grew up with it". So this "huge importance" of the Sabbath that you guys place into the creation account is something that has simply been instilled in you by others.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Again, where do you get this "it's ALL about the Sabbath"?? Just because it's six days and one day of God resting does not make the Sabbath the "focus" of creation. The focus of creation is man, not the Sabbath (Mark 2:27).


yes you are absolutely right. Gen 1 is all about human beings. the problem is that the chapter headings are not inspired and the toledoth that is chapter 1 ends with chapter 2:4.
so i'll correct my statement, Gen 1-Gen2:4, the natural division of the text, is all about the Sabbath.

look at the text.
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.
Gen 2:2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
Gen 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
Gen 2:4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

it all leads up to the 7th day. The first toledoth is all about the Sabbath. Thanks for the correction.


Yes, you "grew up with it". So this "huge importance" of the Sabbath that you guys place into the creation account is something that has simply been instilled in you by others.


i didn't grow up in it, my faith dates from adulthood. The huge importance of the Sabbath here has actually evolved over the last few months as a few of us have worked on the issue. It is in fact, contrary to my denominations stand, which teaches that the Sabbath is a creation ordinance.

VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in his Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him: which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week; and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week, which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's day, and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
WCF Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day
note the binding all men in all ages. It's not been instilled in me, for rarely does the modern church talk about the position. it exists and i worked through the issue as i did all the positions in the Confession. in fact, up to about 100 years ago all American Christians believed that the Sabbath was a creation mandate binding on all men in all ages and it was the responsibility of the civil magistrate to enforce Sunday observation laws. It is the modern evangelical and fundamentalist churches who have abandoned the traditional viewpoint. And who are now completely unaware of either the history or the justification of such a stand.
 
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Assyrian

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XianSamurai said:
Just because the phrase "evening and morning, the x day" appears as the last detail of each day does not mean that the days events preceded it. God forming man in chapter 2 did not happen after God made man in chapter 1 - they are the same event. Just because it is stated later doesn't mean there were two creations of man. There is a topical order, not merely a chronological order.
Gen 2 is a separate account of the creation of man plants animals and woman. As a separate account it does cover the same ground. But the YEC argument about Gen 1 is that it is a simple to read straight forward historical narrative. But if that is the case then the evenings start, as the simple sequence of the narrative suggests, after each work of creation is finished. If we look at the verb tenses used, there is nothing to suggest that the evenings and morning are to be taken out of sequence with the rest of the narrative. They use the same verbs as the rest of the narrative.

In fact one of the YEC technical arguments to say that Genesis is a historical narrative, is that it uses a verb form called the waw consecutive (actually that just makes it a narrative not necessary a historical one). You see the waw consecutive translated in English versions as And this happened... Then there was... And this happened... Basically, a series of these waw consecutive verbs expresses a series of consecutive actions. The problem for YEC is that the phrase 'And there was evening and there was morning' give us two more of these waw consecutives in the series of waw consecutives in Gen 1. The evening and morning come after God called the light day.

Assyrian
 
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XianSamurai

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rmwilliamsll said:
Again, where do you get this "it's ALL about the Sabbath"?? Just because it's six days and one day of God resting does not make the Sabbath the "focus" of creation. The focus of creation is man, not the Sabbath (Mark 2:27).


yes you are absolutely right. Gen 1 is all about human beings. the problem is that the chapter headings are not inspired and the toledoth that is chapter 1 ends with chapter 2:4.
so i'll correct my statement, Gen 1-Gen2:4, the natural division of the text, is all about the Sabbath.

look at the text.


it all leads up to the 7th day. The first toledoth is all about the Sabbath. Thanks for the correction.
I still see absolutely no justification for claiming the account is "all about the Sabbath" simply because it's mentioned last.
 
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XianSamurai

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Assyrian said:
Gen 2 is a separate account of the creation of man plants animals and woman. As a separate account it does cover the same ground. But the YEC argument about Gen 1 is that it is a simple to read straight forward historical narrative. But if that is the case then the evenings start, as the simple sequence of the narrative suggests, after each work of creation is finished. If we look at the verb tenses used, there is nothing to suggest that the evenings and morning are to be taken out of sequence with the rest of the narrative. They use the same verbs as the rest of the narrative.

In fact one of the YEC technical arguments to say that Genesis is a historical narrative, is that it uses a verb form called the waw consecutive (actually that just makes it a narrative not necessary a historical one). You see the waw consecutive translated in English versions as And this happened... Then there was... And this happened... Basically, a series of these waw consecutive verbs expresses a series of consecutive actions. The problem for YEC is that the phrase 'And there was evening and there was morning' give us two more of these waw consecutives in the series of waw consecutives in Gen 1. The evening and morning come after God called the light day.

Assyrian
No, a "historical" interpretation simply does not require ignoring a topical order and forcing a strict chronological order as you are trying to do.
 
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jereth

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XianSamurai said:
I still see absolutely no justification for claiming the account is "all about the Sabbath" simply because it's mentioned last.

Okay then, let's put the question another way.

Why did God create in 7 days? Why did he choose this number? Is it completely arbitrary? Did he roll cosmic dice and 7 was the number that came up, so he thought "I'll make the earth in 7 days"?

That seems to be your argument. What we are saying is that the 7 days of creation mean something. The only other place in Scripture where the 7 days of creation are mentioned is Exodus 20, the Sabbath comandment. Therefore, if we are going to be biblical here, we must assert that God created the world in 7 literal days because he wanted to set a pattern for Israel.

Again, I point you to the AiG arguemnts.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"An interesting research project would be to get people to investigate nations that have tried to change the seven-day week. Such experiments have always failed, because biologically man is set up for six days of work, one day of rest." [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](from http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/overheads/pages/oh20011026_85.asp emphasis added)

What utter nonsense, BTW -- as we've been saying, the 7-day week originated in a single culture ca. 2000BC and didn't become universal until well into the Christian Era.
[/FONT]
 
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Assyrian

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XianSamurai said:
No, a "historical" interpretation simply does not require ignoring a topical order and forcing a strict chronological order as you are trying to do.
The YEC claim is that it is a simple straightforward historical narrative. But if you argue for historical narrative, evenings and mornings come at the end of each act of creation with nothing in the verbs used that says anything but sequential event.

Now you can look at the whole narrative a framework of distinct topics, that is fine. But once you you start talking about non sequential topical order, then your literal six days disappears.

Even if Gen 1 is divided into a series of topics, then the structure of the chapter says each separate topic is a block that finishes with 'and there was the evening.. nth day.' The waw consecutive used is exactly the same form as the ones used to give the narrative form leading up to it making evening and morning part of the narrative sequence.

Assyrian
 
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XianSamurai

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jereth said:
Okay then, let's put the question another way.

Why did God create in 7 days? Why did he choose this number? Is it completely arbitrary? Did he roll cosmic dice and 7 was the number that came up, so he thought "I'll make the earth in 7 days"?

That seems to be your argument. What we are saying is that the 7 days of creation mean something. The only other place in Scripture where the 7 days of creation are mentioned is Exodus 20, the Sabbath comandment. Therefore, if we are going to be biblical here, we must assert that God created the world in 7 literal days because he wanted to set a pattern for Israel[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
No, I have never stated the 7 days is "arbitrary" or meaningless. Never even hinted at that. What I have said repeatedly, is that I don't see it as the main point of creation as you are attempting to make it.
 
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XianSamurai

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Assyrian said:
The YEC claim is that it is a simple straightforward historical narrative. But if you argue for historical narrative, evenings and mornings come at the end of each act of creation with nothing in the verbs used that says anything but sequential event.

Now you can look at the whole narrative a framework of distinct topics, that is fine. But once you you start talking about non sequential topical order, then your literal six days disappears.

Even if Gen 1 is divided into a series of topics, then the structure of the chapter says each separate topic is a block that finishes with 'and there was the evening.. nth day.' The waw consecutive used is exactly the same form as the ones used to give the narrative form leading up to it making evening and morning part of the narrative sequence.

Assyrian
And, as I've already stated, a "historical narrative" simply does NOT mean what you are trying to make it mean. That view does NOT require the "evening and morning" to have occured after the day's events simply because it's the last thing mentioned on each day. A "historical narrative" simply is not required to be read that way.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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XianSamurai said:
No, I have never stated the 7 days is "arbitrary" or meaningless. Never even hinted at that. What I have said repeatedly, is that I don't see it as the main point of creation as you are attempting to make it.


Fair enough.

The very structure of Gen 1-Gen2:4 is the creation week. it reaches a crescendo in the declaration of the Sabbath. The pattern, the great analogy is that God creates the kingdoms, the first triad and then when they are ready He providentally fills them. The crowning creation is humanity which rules as a viceregerent under God. The relationship of man to God is further strengthening by man doing the great pattern, 6 days on and 1 day off.

Look at it as a piece of literature.
What is it talking about? what are the major points? how does it build suspense and create interest? what is the structure and the major metaphors?

All the answers to questions such as these are the Creation Week capped by God's Sabbath. It is literally the great analogy. God creates the universe as a deriviative from His heaven, the earth as His footstool. The temple above as the pattern for the earth below. This analogy is carried on throughout the Bible. And it reaches a peak in that the world rests to mimic, to honor God's creation. We think God's thoughts after Him by representationally repeating His works. That is why we labor, to glorify God, to reflect back to Him the honor of His creation.

The Sabbath rest is representative of the Heavenly rest, The bible essentially is bracketed by God's grace in salvation, first by creating the universe then in judgement over it.

The Sabbath rest is tied to the crucifixion and the Resurrection as well. Why do Christians (well most) worship on the first day and not the 7th? You have to go back to creation, then the Mosaic law to answer such questions. But they all rely on the Creation Week and God's Sabbath as crucial typological metaphors.

it the creation week capped by God's sabbath is not the main point of Gen 1, what is?
 
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jereth

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XianSamurai said:
No, I have never stated the 7 days is "arbitrary" or meaningless. Never even hinted at that. What I have said repeatedly, is that I don't see it as the main point of creation as you are attempting to make it.

But you still haven't answered my question. What is the point of the 7 days? Why 7? God always does things for a reason, doesn't he? what's the reason for creating in 1 week? You say it is not meaningless... well what is the meaning then?

And, as I've already stated, a "historical narrative" simply does NOT mean what you are trying to make it mean. That view does NOT require the "evening and morning" to have occured after the day's events simply because it's the last thing mentioned on each day. A "historical narrative" simply is not required to be read that way.

All he's doing is using the usual YEC argument back on you. YECs always say the "waw" consecutive proves that Genesis 1 is a historical account. But if you apply this logic consistently, the whole narrative falls apart.
 
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RenHoek

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Why did God create in 7 days? Why did he choose this number? Is it completely arbitrary? Did he roll cosmic dice and 7 was the number that came up, so he thought "I'll make the earth in 7 days"?
Isn’t 7 symbolic of completion?
Isn’t Christ our rest (Sabbath)?
These verses point to completion and/in Christ.

Hebrews 4 speaks much about this topic.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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there is a thread at TWeb on the same topic.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=75990&page=1&pp=15 *

what makes it particularly interesting is the OP which has a vivid and rememberable image.

A man was once painting a picture. He started by applying a sweeping banner of white across the top the canvas. Then he applied a band of blue; he painted the earth at the bottom and added a pool of water. Flowers, trees and a field of corn were added. He then added a bright sun in sky, clouds on the horizon and birds in the sky. He added fish in the water and animals in the field and finally the artist painted a couple in the middle of the scene holding hands.

Another man stood beside the artist the entire time, watching him work. When the artist was finished and was putting his signature on the bottom, this witness spoke up; “Your painting is a lie” he said “even the most uneducated person can tell you that the sun pre-existed the earth, clouds formed before pools of water and that birds came after fish. You have put everything in the wrong order and in the most ridiculous fashion.”

“You would be correct,” replied the artist “if I were making a textbook and not a picture”

This in essence is what is wrong with our reading of Genesis. We look at the finished painting and object that it was completed in the wrong order and that it does not make sense. But in fact, we are not looking at a textbook but at a picture.

a very useful metaphor for the discussion

*posted with original author's permission 5/9
 
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jereth

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RenHoek said:
Isn’t 7 symbolic of completion?
Isn’t Christ our rest (Sabbath)?
These verses point to completion and/in Christ.

But why did creation happen in 7 days = 1 week? (I feel like I'm repeating myself.)

To paraphrase AiG:
"7 days. Not 7 thousand years, not 7 million years, not 7 billion years, not 7 minutes, not 7 seconds. 7 days!!!!!"

Is it just a coincidence that God took 7 days to make the universe, then told Israel to observe a 7 day week, and now the entire modern civilisation observes a 7 day week (based on the Israelite week)? Either you believe that creation week was a pattern for humans to follow, or else it never happened.

Hebrews 4 speaks much about this topic.

I think Heb 4 supports TE more than YEC. He says that the point of the sabbath-rest is not a literal 24 hour day, but a long and indefinite period of time. (Sounds familiar anyone?)
 
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RenHoek

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Come now, guys. Wake up. So now you want us to believe that God made a special point of creating the world in 7 days, but that He intended this to be meaningless as far as humanity was concerned until the time of Moses 2700 years later ??!?
I suppose this is what my response was to.

Possibilities:

1) It was God’s only account of Him working, so if He wanted it to be an example, delayed or not, this was the time to not be a hypocrite.

2) As for my last post, the Sabbath was a foreshadow of our rest in Christ, which was foreshadowed in creation

3) As in my 1st post, it is possible that Adam:

a. Did not need to work a full week to provide for himself, so the seven days was not an issue yet

b. Did follow the seven days and humanity fell away from it
 
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jabechler

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Well good thoughts but never taken to completion. 1) 7 in the bible and agreed through out Judism is a number of completion. 2) many things were established at the creation week not just the Sabbath,i.e. creation of life, sabbath, marriage, work ethic etc... 3) we can all agree God does not clarify everything in scripture. some things are left to faith ,others arent clarified at at all. Just because the keeping of the Sabbath was not mentioned again until much later it could be that it was being kept by the majority of people and was not an issue of further discussion. the Fact that Moses was given it as a command by God in the form of remebrance was caused by the fact that few were keeping it and Gods people had been in Egypt for 400 years and had forgotten it and were by and large keeping the pagan day of Sun Worship on the first day of the week.
 
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