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dad said:Yes we can discount that figment of the evo imagination. And where 'symbolic' is applied to a basic truth of God's word to attempt to neuter it of real meaning that symbolism is satanism.
I have never seen SoS used to attack creation. Learn the difference.That is a wee bit of a narrow statement. There are lots of times when the Bible can be symbolic, metaphorical, and allegorical. The Song of Songs is an example.
Peace
"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)
Right. I think God wrote the bible using men. God is incapable of lying. For there not to have been a real creation and creation week, God would have to be a liar. Jesus confirmed it as did all the holy oracles of God used for the New Testament. You would need to savage them as well.Only if you think God wrote the Bible; or if you think God was incapable of using symbolic language; or was a follower of that peculiar American philosophy of common-sense empiricism that denies the possibility of truth in story.
Anyway, it makes no difference. If the world God created says that evolution happened (as it does) then according to your theology, either God was lying in scripture or God was lying in the world.
Completely false. The ONLY evolving that happened was after creation week, and TO created kinds. Try not to misrepresent my 'theology'.
It does matter.
Nonsense. I never questioned symnbolism, I just pointed out it cannot be used to oppose the revealed truth of God confirmed by Jesus about the creation.You do realise you effectively just accused half the Christians on this forum of satanism?
Oh come on now. Since they separated the real early stages of their imaginary evolution that has zero evidence, from the more recent stuff, that has some grains of truth to it, in that a lot of changes did come down.You do realize that abiogeneis has absolutely nothing to do with evolution don't you? Abiogenesis has never been a field of evolution, they describe two completely different processes.
You do realize that abiogeneis has absolutely nothing to do with evolution don't you? Abiogenesis has never been a field of evolution, they describe two completely different processes.
Science comes up with new information and that helps us to better understand our Bible. The whole point is you can not falsify the Bible. Just the opposite, Science confirms again and again that the Bible is true.It is so difficult to keep up with each Christian's interpretation of Genesis. Can't you guys agree on one standard so we have something falsifiable to debate?
dad said:I have never seen SoS used to attack creation. Learn the difference.
Perhaps I did not make myself clear. I am talking about the holocene extinction. This was pre civilization and ruin does tend to be a word used more for the break down of civilization. Now I understand that not all species went extinct. God repopulated the earth with species that were here before the mass extinction. At least according to Science.That's not the Earth in ruin, that's some portions of human civilization in ruin.
Here is a interesting suggestion. That Hebrew means Herdsman. So they say the Hebrews were the origional Herdsman. That would allow you to settle down and build a city if you did not have to follow the herds as they traveled from place to place.Ya, but he's whining about the 'original Hebrew' -- or something.
I can't really tell what he wants.
I don't argue too much with your argument. But it doesn't reflect the real world, so you have to change the college biology textbooks first before scolding Creationists.
Unit 3 Evolution
Chapter 14 Principles of Evolution
Chapter 15 How Organisms Evolve
Chapter 16 The Origin of Species
Chapter 17 The History of Life on Earth 1
Heres part of another college biology textbooks index.
Chapter 34 Theory of Evolution
Early Theories of the Origin of Life 2
The table of contents for Cliffs Notes on Biology
(lets face it, thats what kids really read) says,
Chapter 12: Principles of Evolution
Chapter 13: The Origin and Evolution of Life
Chapter 14: Human Evolution
Evolution and Abiogenesis
And change these authors
The Origin and Evolution of Life
Amazon.com: Aquagenesis: The Origin and Evolution of Life in the Sea (9780142001561): Richard Ellis: Books
I also detect a note of name-calling here. Like if you tell a person they are an "Ann,Bule,Charlie,Cracker,Gubba, or Honky" you are making allusions to their background, where they come from, how they are acting. You are not trying to INCREASE or build up their standing in the social community. So I find the scientific community guilty of this offense. Especially guilty of making such comments as if they were coming from a "scientific" standing where they are above reproach because of their self imagined status.
In fact. I feel this post could be reported just for posting the article titles below.
Lungfish provides insight to life on land: 'Humans are just modified fish'
TED 2008: Humans Are Just Machines for Propagating Memes, Susan Blackmore Says
OK, long as one doesn't take that too far, so as to wipe out the creation and things that have clear meaning.I'm not attacking anything, Friend. Just saying there are parts in the Bible that are symbolic, metaphorical, and allegorical. The Bible has many layers of meaning.
Peace
"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)
Dad, just out of curiosity, who is that in your pic?OK, long as one doesn't take that too far, so as to wipe out the creation and things that have clear meaning.
It is Magnus the robot fighter..and old comic..Dad, just out of curiosity, who is that in your pic?
Is that a Buck Rogers comic book?
OIC --It is Magnus the robot fighter..and old comic..I kind of liked how he bucked the system, and fought the automatons, that enslaved mankind...kind of like the out of control evo doctrines gone mad.
The council of Nicea did not put together the Scripture.I believe you missed my point. When was the bible put together, by whom and how? Have you ever read through some of the proceeding of the council of Nicea? It can be a bit troubling.
But evolution did happen in the world. No one is denying that.Anyway, it makes no difference. If the world God created says that evolution happened (as it does) then according to your theology, either God was lying in scripture or God was lying in the world. Either way, your interpretation of scripture has made God a liar.
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. (Rom 1:20).The evidence suggests both at the same time. The scriptures even explain this as to how God used actual events to communicate truths.
It also refers to a future recreation of the heavens and the earth. So the idea of Geneses 1 being a similar recreation holds possible.Plainly that refers to men.
Precisely!It seems to indicate that the planet was not yet formed in the way we know.
Only if we don't consider the rocks and fossils to be old. If we consider the fossils to be evidence of prehistoric life then it's no stretch. Trying to fit all those fossils onto Noah's ark might be more of a stretch.But chaos seems a stretch...
Well, if it was this way for a reason and we infer a reason that does not in any way take away from the core message of Scripture, then such liberties are fine. I think we all take those liberties at some point.I assume the Great Scientist knew just what He was doing, and that it was that way in that stage of the first day for a reason. Inferring more is taking liberty, no?
I agree.Evos seem to think the universe is in chaos. Mindless movement, no reason or design or purpose, but the truth is quite the opposite.
If I am not mistaken, the bible tells us the water divided from the land on the third day after God commanded it to do so. The bible, however, does not tell us the water and land were created on a specific day.How long, then it took the waters to be divided from the land should be equally an open question? Yet I think most people seem to realize it was that first day..no?
If the chaos was determined by design it would be included in the Master plan and operation.Chaos is your preffered word to describe the earliest phase of the Master plan and operation.
New ideas often sound fantastic.Funny nowhere in the bible I have seen such a fantastic distinction!
Okay. This sounds pretty much like a reference to Genesis 1. So let’s compare.Example:
Psalm 136:3-9
"Heavens"– shamayim– the same Hebrew word for "Atmosphere".3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever. 4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever. 5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.
What part of the earth is stretched out above the waters?6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.
The “great lights” is referring to the two great lights in Genesis 1: the sun and moon. Not the stars.7 To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Again, this is only telling us the moon and stars rule the night. It is not telling us the stars were made as were the sun and moon.8 The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever: 9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever. "
But plausible. And it’s the one part of my theory I thought you might consider to be possible – a different state past.Speculation.If the seasons, days and years were different in prehistory (and they most likely were) then our solar system would have functioned differently and a reordering of our solar system would have been necessary to create the new seasons, days and years we experience today.
On this we can agree.The stars and sun and moon are all existing because of the earth in a way. They are connected and made for us here. How unlike the so called science 'meaningless little speck of dust' doctrine!
But a week requires days, and days require light, and the light appeared after “that stuff” (water and land) had been here. Therefore "that stuff" existed before that week and was not created that week.No doubt that creation week involved a lot of putting stuff in order. The thing in one cannot get that stuff to have been here before they were created that week.
I’m not.There is no need to explain away the rest of the universe or omit it from the creation,
I agree.all things that were made, were made, and without Him was not anything made.
Well, I don’t think you have done a good enough job demonstrating why it is weak.Sorry, on this particular point you have a weak case.
Doesn't follow. The future changes do not affect the fact there was a creation. Man was still created when he was created. The future new state merely shows that this present state is not the one that will be.It also refers to a future recreation of the heavens and the earth. So the idea of Geneses 1 being a similar recreation holds possible.
The bible doesn't support that, people lived a certain number of years...Adam begat...etc. No indefinite period is possible.And it allows for the planet to be in existence for an indefinite period of time before it was formed in the way we know.
Only if we don't consider the rocks and fossils to be old. If we consider the fossils to be evidence of prehistoric life then it's no stretch. Trying to fit all those fossils onto Noah's ark might be more of a stretch.
Speculation. No chaos really existed. It was all well planned, and the early part of the plan merely saw unformed (as we know it) stuff.But the opposite may be that the chaos is determined by design for a purpose or reason.
Not sure what you are talking about. In what way would the dividing of water and land not be on the day mentioned?? As for the verse, the bondage of sin and decay is something believers will be liberated from..so?I believe the fall of man and the chaos that followed was determined by design for a reason:
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. (Rom 8:20-21).
If I am not mistaken, the bible tells us the water divided from the land on the third day after God commanded it to do so. The bible, however, does not tell us the water and land were created on a specific day.
It seems to me the days were created after the existence of the water and land, when God said:
Let there be light, and there was light...and God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day. (Gen 1:3-5).
As it is, right in creation week no less.If the chaos was determined by design it would be included in the Master plan and operation.
The part on the other side of where the stars are!
New ideas often sound fantastic.
Okay. This sounds pretty much like a reference to Genesis 1. So lets compare.
"Heavens" shamayim the same Hebrew word for "Atmosphere".
What part of the earth is stretched out above the waters?
The only thing I can think of is the earths Atmosphere, and perhaps any land that is above sea level.
They were made the same day!I did mention the creation of the earth's atmosphere and lithosphere in my OP, and that the hydrosphere was already present.
The great lights is referring to the two great lights in Genesis 1: the sun and moon. Not the stars.
Again, this is only telling us the moon and stars rule the night. It is not telling us the stars were made as were the sun and moon.
My different state is in the time after creation. Not in an imaginary time that can't be supported in some invented gap in day one or two or whatever.But plausible. And its the one part of my theory I thought you might consider to be possible a different state past.
I must say Im shocked.
On this we can agree.
But a week requires days, and days require light,
and the light appeared after that stuff (water and land) had been here.
And no proof that any such stuff existed exists in or out of the bible. All things were created by him.....Therefore "that stuff" existed before that week and was not created that week.
Im not.
Speculation. You can't support it.Im just stating that the six day creation events in Genesis 1 are not necessarily a creation of the universe, but simply a recreation of the earth's biosphere following a different state past.
Bingo.From a reading of verse 1 of Genesis 1 that single verse also allows for a description of the universe being created, a description which I also accept:
In the beginning God created the heavens (universe) and the earth.
We could extend that to mean that the earth was flat and not round I suppose...no form!? No. The early planet was in a stage that was unlike the stage later, where we see waters and continents etc...This does not change that fact, however, that the earth in the following verse 2 is described as was formless and empty, and that the Hebrew word for was can also be translated became.
Not really.So verses 1 and 2 can also be read:
In the beginning God created the heavens (universe) and the earth. And the earth became formless and empty. Then God recreated the earth in six days.
When God said "it is finished" in chap 2, one assumes that the stars and sun and man and etc are included. If you want to exclude some things you better have solid gold bible wide reasons. You don't.I agree.
Well, I dont think you have done a good enough job demonstrating why it is weak.
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