Genesis 1 Again

[Doveaman]

Seeing his position does not mean I agree with it, or Bill. My belief is that creation week was a real week.

Since this is also my belief, we do agree on creation week.

We simply don't agree on what was created that week.

 

[Doveaman]

The Bible must mean "made" the authority over the Solar Clock, as the Hebrew word itself implies

God "made" the greater light to govern the day and He "made" the lesser light to govern the night. The stars also. (Gen 1:16).

He also "made" Obama to govern the U.S.A.

"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God." (Rom 13:2).

The authorities that exist are "made" by God.

 

[Belk]

God "made" the greater light to govern the day and He "made" the lesser light to govern the night. The stars also. (Gen 1:16).

He also "made" Obama to govern the U.S.A.

"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God." (Rom 13:2).

The authorities that exist are "made" by God.

If the bible is correct is not everything made by God? Seems rather superfluous to call out specific items.

 

[Doveaman]

If the bible is correct is not everything made by God?

No. God did not make the Space Shuttle.

Seems rather superfluous to call out specific items.

No. God did not make the Space Shuttle.

 

[cupid dave]

God "made" the greater light to govern the day and He "made" the lesser light to govern the night. The stars also. (Gen 1:16).

He also "made" Obama to govern the U.S.A.

"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God." (Rom 13:2).

The authorities that exist are "made" by God.

Yes.

People who fight to show that Genesis does NOT agree with science have no real case for opposing these ways of understanding the story told.

That the word for "day" used before the Solar Clock was introduced into the story certainly supports the logic of using the synonym "age" or better today, Era as does it in this case for "made."

 

[Doveaman]

That the word for "day" used before the Solar Clock was introduced into the story certainly supports the logic of using the synonym "age" or better today, Era as does it in this case for "made."

Or maybe the prehistoric Solar Clock was outdated, so God "made" a new, modern Solar Clock.

 

[cupid dave]

Or maybe the prehistoric Solar Clock was outdated, so God "made" a new, modern Solar Clock.

It seems that a day to God is not bound by our idea of 24 hours.

That is the point of Gen 1:14.
It tells us that the first seven days were not our 24 hour days.

And we can see that those durations were the same as our science see them:




THE CLOCK USED IN GENESIS ONE:

1. Formative/Cosmologic Era ("evening")-Hadean Era ("morning") = First Day

2. Hadean Era ("evening")-Archaean Era ("morning") = Second Day

3. Archaean Era ("evening")-Proterozoic Era ("morning") = Third Day

4. Proterozoic Era ("evening")-Paleozoic Era ("morning") = Fourth Day

5. Paleozoic Era ("evening")-Mesozoic Era ("morning") = Fifth Day

6. Mesozoic Era ("evening")-Cenozoic Era ("morning") = Six Day

7. Cenozoic Era ("evening")-Common Era ("morning") = Seventh Day

 

[Belk]

No. God did not make the Space Shuttle.
No. God did not make the Space Shuttle.

So God is not omnipotent and omniscient in your view?

 

[dad]

Since this is also my belief, we do agree on creation week.

We simply don't agree on what was created that week.

Well it's funny that the stars will stop shining, if they were here before the earth was! That makes sense if the earth was created first though, big time. It really goes to the way we look at earth. The evos think we are dirt, and a meaningless little speck in the universe. God's view seems to be that the stars shine for us! Totally different way to look at everything.



Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

 

[cupid dave]

Well it's funny that the stars will stop shining, if they were here before the earth was! That makes sense if the earth was created first though, big time. It really goes to the way we look at earth. The evos think we are dirt, and a meaningless little speck in the universe. God's view seems to be that the stars shine for us! Totally different way to look at everything.



Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Good point, BUT...
... the whole verse stated by Isaiah here is what did happen:


Rev. 6:12 And I beheld, (in the days of Emperor Theodocius, who established the Holy Roman, Catholic, Apostolic Church, on 27 February 380), when he, (the Lamb of the tribe of Judah, the off-spring of the root of David: [Rev 5:5]), had opened the sixth seal of (scripture), and, lo, there was a great earthquake (of religious social change); and the Sun (signs of Astrology) became (as) black as (the) sackcloth of (the hood covering a nun's) hair, and the moon became as blood (of Christ, used thereafter to determine the very day of the Easter and Passover).

Rev. 6:13 And the stars' (twelve constellations of Sun Signs) of heaven fell (from popular grace) unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, (ruined), when she is (destructively) shaken of a mighty wind.

Rev. 6:14 And (Astrology) departed (from popular practice) as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every (Pagan religion, secret society, and Gnosticism) were moved out of their places (in the pagan societies throughout all the Roman World).

Rev. 6:15 And (1) the kings of the earth, (POLITICIANS), and (2) the great men, (STATESMEN), and (3) the rich men, (ECONOMIC BARONS), and (4) the chief captains, (pagan PRIESTHOODS), and (5) the mighty men, (MILITARY LEADERS), and (7) every free man, (PEASANT), hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the (institutionalized) mountains (of that pagan society);


Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains (of the previous decadent, hedonistic social institutions) and rocks (of that wide-open, sexually promiscuous culture), "Fall on us," (help!), and "hide us from the face (of Papal judgment) of (Universal Catholicism), him that sitteth on the throne (of Christian Rome) and from the (words of) wrath of the Lamb," (the Word of the New Testament, canonized in 382AD):

Rev. 6:17 For the great day of his wrath, (the one thousand year reign predicted), is come; and who, (what other God, or religion, or denomination), shall be able to stand (during these Dark Ages)?

Note: Catholic Encyclopedia:
With the overthrow of the old Roman Empire and the victory of Christianity, (legally the only church in the whole Empire by 380 AD), astrology lost its importance in the centers of Christian civilization in the West. The last known astrologer of the old world was Johannes Laurentius (sometimes called Lydus) of Philadelphia in Lydia, who lived A.D. 490-565.

 

[Doveaman]

Well it's funny that the stars will stop shining, if they were here before the earth was!

But the verses you quoted below show how the sun, moon and stars can stop shining.

That makes sense if the earth was created first though, big time.

The earth being created before the rest of the universe (the heavens) sounds like a bit of a stretch. Especially when "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." In that order.

It really goes to the way we look at earth. The evos think we are dirt, and a meaningless little speck in the universe. God's view seems to be that the stars shine for us! Totally different way to look at everything.

Well, yes -- but this does not mean they always shined for us. They would have also shined for prehistoric lifeforms that existed before man came on the world scene.

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

As I said earlier, these verses show how the sun, moon and stars can stop shining. This is caused by a divinely inspired global catastrophe. The resulting dust, debris and smog in the earth’s atmosphere will darkened the sky, blotting out the celestial lights.

See, the day of the LORD is coming — a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger — to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. (Isa 13:9-10).

“I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon will not give its light. All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you; I will bring darkness over your land, declares the Sovereign LORD.” (Ezek 32:7-8).

This darkness and desolation is similar to that described in Genesis 1. A global catastrophe resulting in dust, debris and smog in the earth’s atmosphere could have darkened the sky, blotting out the celestial lights, and during the six day re-creation events the celestial lights would have been "made" to re-appear on day four after the dust, debris and smog were removed.

A similar global catastrophe followed by global renewal is predicted to occur again in the future.

I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty; and at the heavens, and their light was gone...This is what the LORD says: “The whole land will be ruined, though I will not destroy it completely. Therefore the earth will mourn and the heavens above grow dark...” (Jer 4:23-28).

The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare... But in keeping with His promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth (2 Peter 3:10-13).

 

[Doveaman]

It seems that a day to God is not bound by our idea of 24 hours.
That is the point of Gen 1:14.
It tells us that the first seven days were not our 24 hour days.

I’m not so sure about that. The evening (night) and the morning (daylight) sounds pretty descriptive to me, in addition to the fact that the sun was “made” to govern the days, and the moon to govern the nights; they were not “made” to govern Eras.

And we can see that those durations were the same as our science see them:

THE CLOCK USED IN GENESIS ONE:

1. Formative/Cosmologic Era ("evening")-Hadean Era ("morning") = First Day

2. Hadean Era ("evening")-Archaean Era ("morning") = Second Day

3. Archaean Era ("evening")-Proterozoic Era ("morning") = Third Day

4. Proterozoic Era ("evening")-Paleozoic Era ("morning") = Fourth Day

5. Paleozoic Era ("evening")-Mesozoic Era ("morning") = Fifth Day

6. Mesozoic Era ("evening")-Cenozoic Era ("morning") = Six Day

7. Cenozoic Era ("evening")-Common Era ("morning") = Seventh Day

I don’t think Genesis 1 was meant to be this complicated. It was written for even the dumbest among us to understand, including those who have no knowledge of science. A simpler explanation is the better explanation.

 

[Jazer]

I don’t think Genesis 1 was meant to be this complicated. It was written for even the dumbest among us to understand, including those who have no knowledge of science. A simpler explanation is the better explanation.

Gen 1 was written for everyone. The most simple minded to the most educated and intelligent. God created us so He can make the same passage complicated and simple all at the same time. He is no respector of persons, God does not count one any more or less worthy than another. The world looks at the outward appearance but God looks at the heart.

"But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong." 1 cor 1 27

 

[dad]

Good point, BUT...
... the whole verse stated by Isaiah here is what did happen:


Rev. 6:12 And I beheld, (in the days of Emperor Theodocius, who established the Holy Roman, Catholic, Apostolic Church, on 27 February 380), when he, (the Lamb of the tribe of Judah, the off-spring of the root of David: [Rev 5:5]), had opened the sixth seal of (scripture), and, lo, there was a great earthquake (of religious social change); and the Sun (signs of Astrology) became (as) black as (the) sackcloth of (the hood covering a nun's) hair, and the moon became as blood (of Christ, used thereafter to determine the very day of the Easter and Passover).

Rev. 6:13 And the stars' (twelve constellations of Sun Signs) of heaven fell (from popular grace) unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, (ruined), when she is (destructively) shaken of a mighty wind.

Rev. 6:14 And (Astrology) departed (from popular practice) as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every (Pagan religion, secret society, and Gnosticism) were moved out of their places (in the pagan societies throughout all the Roman World).

Rev. 6:15 And (1) the kings of the earth, (POLITICIANS), and (2) the great men, (STATESMEN), and (3) the rich men, (ECONOMIC BARONS), and (4) the chief captains, (pagan PRIESTHOODS), and (5) the mighty men, (MILITARY LEADERS), and (7) every free man, (PEASANT), hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the (institutionalized) mountains (of that pagan society);


Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains (of the previous decadent, hedonistic social institutions) and rocks (of that wide-open, sexually promiscuous culture), "Fall on us," (help!), and "hide us from the face (of Papal judgment) of (Universal Catholicism), him that sitteth on the throne (of Christian Rome) and from the (words of) wrath of the Lamb," (the Word of the New Testament, canonized in 382AD):

Rev. 6:17 For the great day of his wrath, (the one thousand year reign predicted), is come; and who, (what other God, or religion, or denomination), shall be able to stand (during these Dark Ages)?

Note: Catholic Encyclopedia:
With the overthrow of the old Roman Empire and the victory of Christianity, (legally the only church in the whole Empire by 380 AD), astrology lost its importance in the centers of Christian civilization in the West. The last known astrologer of the old world was Johannes Laurentius (sometimes called Lydus) of Philadelphia in Lydia, who lived A.D. 490-565.

Ah, so you merely spiritualize away any reality to the mountains being leveled, 100 lb hailstones, new heavens and earth, and etc etc. Interesting.

It can't work, though. Obviously the sky hasn't fallen yet, last week, or in the days of Rome or anywhere else.


Eze 32:7 -And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.The stars and sun never went out, and one can prove that. Just look up!
Joe 2:10 - The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: In fact the shaking in the end will be so great, people left here at that time will try ti kill themselves. Scared to death. Worse, cause they won't be able to die that easy at that time.

While mountains are often a symbol of kingdoms, mountains are also mountains. The flood covered the world above the...mountains. That did not mean Nero's kneecaps.

I notice also that in one verse here, for example, both are used, clearly indicating separate events.

Lu 21:25 -And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

If any read this are not familiar with this, it is the direct words of Jesus, no less.

Now, I do not think this next verse is about Herod roasting marshmallows..

2Pe 3:12 -Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Clearly, in the very end, mountains and stars and moon and sun, etc will be greatly affected. It cannot be minimized, spiritualized, and that I Capitalize.

Who could but agree? Who dare but agree?

 

[cupid dave]

I don’t think Genesis 1 was meant to be this complicated. It was written for even the dumbest among us to understand, including those who have no knowledge of science. A simpler explanation is the better explanation.

It is simple when the Science matches the Bible verse.
It is complicated when what you say conflicts directly with the facts of Science.

You aid Bill Mahr in bashing religion, the Bible, and gathering the young people in atheism.

 

[Jazer]

As I said earlier, these verses show how the sun, moon and stars can stop shining. This is caused by a divinely inspired global catastrophe. The resulting dust, debris and smog in the earth’s atmosphere will darkened the sky, blotting out the celestial lights.

12,900 years ago this happened when the Nanodiamond Comets hit the earth.
For GAP Ruin Restoration Theory this date fits right in with the Bible.

I believe OEC, GAP & YEC are all true. But most people can not grasp the concept. Quantum Physics can have 11 dimensions but the Bible is only allowed to have one meaning. Their straw man version that is all they are able to grasp or understand.

 

[Huram Abi]

It is simple when the Science matches the Bible verse.
It is complicated when what you say conflicts directly with the facts of Science.

You aid Bill Mahr in bashing religion, the Bible, and gathering the young people in atheism.

This is a strawman.

 

[Jazer]

If the bible is correct is not everything made by God?

People understand it best when you say there is the perfect divine will of God and the permissive will of God. He is able to cause all things to work out for the best for them that love God and are called according to His purpose. For those who are walking with God life just keeps getting better and better. For those who live in rebellion against God they tend to go from bad to worse.

 

[cupid dave]

Doveaman
I don’t think Genesis 1 was meant to be this complicated. It was written for even the dumbest among us to understand, including those who have no knowledge of science. A simpler explanation is the better explanation.

Gen 1 was written for everyone. The most simple minded to the most educated and intelligent. God created us so He can make the same passage complicated and simple all at the same time. He is no respector of persons, God does not count one any more or less worthy than another. The world looks at the outward appearance but God looks at the heart.

"But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong." 1 cor 1 27

Even more obvious is the idea that Genesis could never had stated the real facts directly and in detail in the past ages.

People until the last century would never have accepted such way out statement as 7 Eras, Pangea, a Dark Comic Age, and such things as 22 species in the ascent t of man out of Africa in a of great population "flood."

 

[Belk]

People understand it best when you say there is the perfect divine will of God and the permissive will of God. He is able to cause all things to work out for the best for them that love God and are called according to His purpose. For those who are walking with God life just keeps getting better and better. For those who live in rebellion against God they tend to go from bad to worse.

Not from what I have seen.