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General anesthesia and consciousness

Bradskii

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BUt we can't keep saying all these experiences are unreal and all the people are duluded all the time.
Yes we can. There have been 2 or 3 cases presented in this thread alone that are meant to be the most definitive proof of whatever-it-is-that-people-think-is-being-proved. One was comprehensively shown to be false and the others have much more mundane and prosaic explanations.

So, yeah...until someone can come up with an actual example of an event that proves what an NDE is supposed to prove we will keep saying that they are unreal and that people are being deluded. All the time.
 
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Laodicean60

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I just had two posts and one quote taken off by violating rules as seen above for calling out what I perceived as trolling. There are 4 or 5 people who for 25 pages keep arguing any information provided which I feel is trolling, which I hope is against the rules.
Writing this I am defending myself. I hope the community can decide whether they are trolling or not or maybe I misunderstood the definition of troll.
Quote from the internet:
"A troll is Internet slang for a person who intentionally tries to instigate conflict, hostility, or arguments in an online social community. Platforms targeted by trolls can include the comment sections of YouTube, forums, or chat rooms. Trolls often use inflammatory messages to provoke emotional responses out of people, disrupting otherwise civil discussion.?
Here is a recreation of what was deleted.
I provided my evidence for #474: NDEs under General Anesthesia by Barbara Mango #476 and in #477 if Bradskii had read the paper he would have seen this:
"I find it inconceivable that the normal sense, such as hearing, let alone the fact that she had clicking devices in each ear, that there was any way for her to hear those [sounds and conversations] through normal auditory pathways…I don’t have an explanation for it. I don’t know how it’s possible for it to happen, considering the physiological state she was in.[vii]"
And this: Pam was diagnosed with a giant aneurysm in a cerebral artery near her brain stem. Although Neurosurgeon Robert Spetzler agreed to operate on Pam, her chance of surviving surgery was remote. The procedure necessitated that Pam’s body temperature be lowered to fifty degrees and all blood drained from her brain. She was additionally attached to a heart-lung machine (a mechanical circulation support of the heart and lungs, also known as cardiopulmonary bypass). Finally, clicking devices were inserted into both ears to monitor her brain. Spetzler emphasizes:

And if you read #477 from Bradskii "This is the best you got? It's a fail". (this seems like goading to me)
Then I replied "lol troll" (deleted)

After reading #478 by ]partinobodycular I replied what about visual? (deleted) He then replied (I'm paraphrasing) the regurgitation of hallucination. (deleted) I then replied with this evidence:
During standstill, Pam’s brain was found “dead” by all three clinical tests-her electroencephalogram was silent, her brain-stem response was absent, and no blood flowed through her brain. Her eyes were lubricated to prevent drying and then taped shut. Additionally, she was under deep anesthesia.[v]
Upon waking, however, Pam was able to describe with complete accuracy the entire procedure, the surgical instruments used, detailed conversations of the medical team, and a song playing on the radio during her surgery. She later concluded,
(which was conveniently deleted)

Another post that I found deleted was the quote to FrumiousBandersnatch #475 "Let's get the trivia out of the way first - yes, I'm going to deny 'Quantum Science about living in a simulation and consciousness' - quantum science has nothing to say about either living in a simulation or consciousness." and my quote was: “A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.” Albert Einstein

Then you have comments like # 471 sounds to me like they're playing a game. It's like trying to make a case for the existence of God to nonbelievers.

I'm new to this forum and yes my mannerisms could have been better but I have to defend myself against what I believe is trolling. Some people will believe what they believe or don't want to believe. Peace Out
Community you can decide.
 
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stevevw

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Then thats rather dismissive of the many people who have had these experiences. Like I said OBE is only part of NDE or consciousness beyond brain. Your hinging all your criteria for dismissing NDE and consciousness beyond brain on one aspect and even within that one aspect a small example of the evidence.

I just gave you a link to around 2 dozen cases of veridical NDE so at least do the research before making unsupported claims that all NDE is unreal and a delusion.

But you missed my main point. Its because the NDE'ers believe their experiences were real, more real than everyday life and that they also provide rich and detailed information, unusual experiences, supernormal senses that makes NDE different to dreams, medication, imagination or hallucinations.

Its this quality of experience that lends support for OBE. People are describing seeing themselves come out of their bodies and float above. For them its as real as sitting behind our computers writing these posts. If its that real then it would seem like it actually happened and not a dream to the experiencewr.

I think the first thing that at least needs to be acknowledged is that what NDE'ers describe happened actually happened and for them it was more real than everyday existence.

But I find the details of what NDE'ers describe as specific and of particular nature like seeing in 360 degrees, moving through solid objects and feeling some resistence, feelings of awe, sensing some godlike being or a bright loving light, meeting deceased relatives, remembering details of long forgotten memories which often have some importance or unresolved issue, having a life review and being able to instantly know of all the moral issues in ones life at one and having supernormal senses.

NDE is a particular kind of experience and it seems its the same experience regardless of age or culture. So even without the supernatural aspect its a significant thing that happens especially around death. It is a fascinating issue that may help us understand the dying process now that we are able to bring people back from the dead. It makes sense that during that time our bodies have shut down that there is some spark of something whatever it is happening when there should be nothing.
 
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stevevw

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I find it amusing that people don't see the obvious as to why NDE is a topic of interest. Its the fact that many people have experienced a NDE that NDE is of interest. Studies say that millions of people have had some sort of NDE or out of body experience since we have been able to resuscitate people.

So more and more people are speaking about these experiences enough to warrant some interest and research. When many people say they have experienced the same thing you cannot just dismiss it as delusion.

Whether its actually consciousness beyond brain or not the phenomena is something humans experience and I think we need to take it seriously to find out whats going on. But dismissing it out of hand is not even good science but rather bias.
 
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partinobodycular

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I don't think consciousness beyond the physical brain can be supported by NDE alone and needs to be understood from several lines of evidence such as from psychology, evolution, physics and the more transcedent aspects such as belief and morality.

Overall I found this to be a fairly objective analysis of NDE's. A tad biased in its conclusion, but not bad.

BUt we can't keep saying all these experiences are unreal and all the people are duluded all the time.

Of course the experiences aren't unreal, and calling them deluded isn't accurate either. However...

At some point we have to stop and consider whether there is something to what is going on.

One shouldn't fall into the trap of concluding that there's some 'otherwordly' explanation, rather than the very real possibility that the human brain is simply capable of some far more extraordinary things than we give it credit for. While keeping in mind that the brain is also capable of something that we're all too familiar with... convincing itself of things that simply aren't true.

People see what they want to see, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, which is why the world is the way it is. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe, unfortunately those two things don't always go together. But if you're willing to accept me... flawed beliefs and all... then I'm willing to do the same for you. In fact, I'm willing to do it for you, even if you aren't willing to do it for me.

People have NDE's and I find them to be a fascinating insight into the human brain, but I don't consider them to be an insight into anything more than that. If you do... awesome, until we're wiser we'll simply have to agree to disagree.
 
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stevevw

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Darn it did it again. Double post.
 
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stevevw

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Overall I found this to be a fairly objective analysis of NDE's. A tad biased in its conclusion, but not bad.
Yeah theres some food for thought. Not just the cases but a bit of background on the different paradigms and how this difference is reflected throughout the sciences such as the Hard problem of consciousness, the observer effect and agency/free will. How some say a shift in thinking is needed for science to move forward.
Of course the experiences aren't unreal, and calling them deluded isn't accurate either. However...
I was thinking what it would be like to have a NDE. I have had pretty vivid dreams, taken mind altering stuff in my past lol, and have a good imagination. But I have never had any experience that is more real than any of those or normal consciousness. These experiences seem to be like if a dead relative was standing there in front of you in daylight like a real person. Seeing clearly yourself on an operating table.

Not a dim image or something hard to grasp completely or forgettable details like in dreams but greater than real life. Its amazing in itself that our minds can do that and yet it doesn't come across as a dream or delusion. We know the difference and usually will recognise its imagination or unreal. But its so real NDE'ers and others are profoundly affected.

As many NDE'ers say "it questions what is actually real or not". Like the out of body experience was the reality and everyday life in our material bodies is the unreality or surface reality. THis seems to converge with what is happening in QM and the questioning of what is fundemental reality Mind or matter.
Yeah I guess so. But we can usually determine when something is unreal eventually. Even when we don't reality seems to have a way of coming back on you. I see NDE as just one part of a number of lines of support that warrants further investigation so having an open mind is important.

What I find interesting is that in each area of science a similar hard problem is emerging and converging towards reality or an aspect of reality being beyond the material. Such as physics especially QM is pointing to Mind as fundemental. Or at least this is the way many scientists are going which seems to offer more potential for answering some of the Hard problems the classical paradigm offer.

Certainly consciousness can only be understood through the subjective so science is limited in explaining this. So why not explore possibilities beyond the status quo. The science method can help to a certain point but then we may have to find new and different ways to measure what is happening. Or being open to new ways of thinking about reality beyond space and time. Afterall even String theory posits extra dimensions.
Yes I agree and thats the basis for being able to explore and find new ways of seeing and doing things. Like Indigenous Knowledge. The West was ignorant of this know how which has been practiced for 1,000's of years sucessfully. Now we are benefiting from this such as with the environment and wildlife.
People have NDE's and I find them to be a fascinating insight into the human brain, but I don't consider them to be an insight into anything more than that. If you do... awesome, until we're wiser we'll simply have to agree to disagree.
Not just a fascinating insight into the human brain as that implies our experiences are limited to the physical brain. That sort of contradicts the experience itself and deflates it into a certain box.

I think its more because of experience which cannot be limited to electrical signals in the brain. Conscious experience can only be understood by experiencing it and describing those experiences as best as possible. So the real evdience we need to look at is the actually experiences themselves. What they are like, what details, commonalities and then derive data from that. You can't do that if NDE is automatically dismissed as a delusion.
 
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Bradskii

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Yes, good observation.
On a tangent, did you (pl/anyone) find the reason besides profits (money) why nde are being promoted in some media channels ?
They are interesting feel-good human interest stories. You don't have to do any serious journalism (as we have seen), so all you do is print what you are told and it's a decent filler for a slow news day.
 
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Bradskii

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Then thats rather dismissive of the many people who have had these experiences.
Yep.
I just gave you a link to around 2 dozen cases of veridical NDE...
Was that the list that included the shoe on the second floor? I think it was. That was by far the one with the most facts that could actually be checked. And so they were. And found to be false. Case closed. And that was the best one you had. So please stop saying they are 'veridical' (what happened to plain old 'true 'when it comes to NDEs? Why are they always 'veridical'?).
 
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stevevw

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Yep.

Was that the list that included the shoe on the second floor? I think it was. That was by far the one with the most facts that could actually be checked. And so they were. And found to be false. Case closed. And that was the best one you had.
No I don't think it had that one. But it had a list of others with similar situations. Most are just what some of the experts say unexplained or hard to explain scientifically. Examples like patients having OBE and later correctly describing the rooms, people or conversations that they could not have sensed as they were either unconscious or clinically dead. Often describing unusual situations that would be hard to guess.

As for the Tennis shoe example I don't think this is a slam dunk for evidence either way. The skeptics arguement seems to be that Maria could have seen or heard the location of the shoe before she had her NDE and then she got confused. From memory she also describe other things in the OR and stuff so its one of those situations of she said, he said. Thats how a lot of the skeptics arguements go. But I notice they are awefully quiet on a number of cases that seem to have good support.

Anyway here is a few examples. In fact there are so many I can choose the more interesting ones. I have done some investigation and cannot find any objections to these but thats not saying there are none.

The case of Lloyd Rudy’s patient
The patient was pronounced dead and described unusual details in the OR as well as the doctors behaviour during the period he was dead. His heart started back up after 25 minutes.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...val_after_permanent_bodily_death_includes_TOC
A Near-Death Experience with Veridical Perception Described by a Famous Heart Surgeon and Confirmed by his Assistant Surgeon
our conclusion that this case is among the most evidential in which perceptions during an NDE were confirmed as completely accurate by objective observers.

Tom Aufderheide’s Patient
Similar to above where dead patient (no sign of life) has OBE and describes doctors behaviour and surroundings during the time he was classed as dead. What's interesting about this one is that the patient also told the doctor what he was thinking which would be hard to do dead or alive.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/356587850_There_is_no_death_Near-death_experience_evidence_for_survival_after_permanent_bodily_death_includes_TOC

The case of Kristle Merzlock
This is another interesting case. Except this time its a 7 year old girl who was clinically dead but not only described correctly during her OBE the OR and particular conversations but also took a trip home and describe exactly what each family member was doing at the time she was supposedly dead or at least comatosed and even if conscious could not have know such things in another location. All was verified by the OR doctors and nurses and her family members.
Incredible Journeys -- Dr. Melvin Morse Looks For Insight Into Near-Death Experiences | The Seattle Times

The case of 9-year-old Eddie Cuomo.
This is also very interesting. Eddie had a NDE after being seriously ill and when he awoke around 3am said he had seen his deceased Grandma Cuomo, Auntie Rosa, and Uncle Lorenzo. He also said he seen his 19 year old sister who told him he had to go back to the living world.

The problem was according to his father she was still alive as he had just spoken to her a couple of days earlier. Later that morning Eddies parents rang their daughters college to find out they had been trying to reach them that their daughter was killed instantly in a car crash around midnight around the time Eddie had his NDE.
http://www.progressneuroscience.com/pdf/vol_3_n_1_2015/10.14588PiN.2015.Facco.105.pdf
https://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/Greyson/Greyson-Anthropology and Humanism_2010-35-159-171.pdf

I will leave it at that but theres plenty more. Many including children of meeting deceased relatives and later identifying them. Some where there were more than one person experiencing the same OBE.

A skeptic can dismiss this as coincident, lucky guess or deception but its a weak arguement when 10s of 1,000's of 1st hand testimonies are dismissed to have no substance.

So please stop saying they are 'veridical' (what happened to plain old 'true 'when it comes to NDEs? Why are they always 'veridical'?).
Its not my language but that of the medical experts. I guess they like their language to be particular. You know scientists don't like the idea of truth as science is about verification so using the word veridical is more than true but verified, been checked and found correct. Especially when it comes to this subject as people are quick to dismiss it all as pseudoscience so the language needs to be clear.
 
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jayem

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I haven’t read every post in this thread. So this may have already been noted. There is nothing supernatural about the out of body experience. It’s been known for years that stimulation of several cortical brain regions will trigger OBE’s Which have also been reported in cases of epilepsy and other neurologic illnesses. The original 2007 report in the NEJM is linked.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa070010

And BTW, the diagnosis of death can sometimes be mistaken. Death by cardiorespiratory criteria is usually obvious. But (especially in children) it may require a period of observation with pulse ox and EKG monitoring for 10-15 minutes. Death by neurologic criteria can be even more difficult. When hospitalized, these patients are always on ventilators. Among other tests, the diagnosis can require 2 totally flat-line EEGs 24 hrs apart when set to the highest gain
 
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partinobodycular

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If you've been following this thread for a while then you've probably noticed that when it comes to NDE's I have a high degree of skepticism for anecdotal accounts. Give me one verified account and I'll be tickled pink, but so far nobody has been able to do that. And I'm sorry, but here's where I'm going to say something that you're absolutely not going to like. I don't consider veridical NDE's to be verified accounts. In fact, I consider the testimony of the doctors and nurses to be just as much anecdotal as the patient's account is.

Now this may seem extremely biased and presumptive of me, but it's based upon years of experience with normal human memory and behavior. We rarely remember things in the same way that they actually happened, and retelling them to others with whom we shared the experience often only serves to make the problem worse. We inadvertently incorporate their memories into ours, to the point that we can no longer distinguish between them. Instead the two accounts, which may have started out dissimilar eventually grow to be quite complementary.

I can understand if you discount this argument, but let me give you an analogy. Let's say that someone goes to see a clairvoyant who claims to be able to talk to the dead. The clairvoyant may begin with something very innocuous, like I'm seeing a man, his first name begins with an 'M' or an 'N'. It's either Mike, or Mark, or Nick... to which someone in the crowd will hold up their hand and say yes...Mike. To which the clairvoyant will say... he's an uncle, or a grandfather? And the audience member will reply grandfather. Now the exchange can go on like this for quite some time with the clairvoyant judiciously drawing out more and more information about the audience member's dearly departed, until at the end of the evening the audience member will be amazed at how much the clairvoyant knew about their poor deceased grandfather. Now you and I both know that this is a trick. The clairvoyant is simply following the lines of questioning that elicit a positive response, and disregarding those that don't. It looks totally inexplicable to the receptive person, but absolutely ridiculous to the skeptic.

This isn't to say that in the case of NDE's either the doctor or the patient is deliberately trying to fabricate a more spectacular story, it's just that in the normal process of sharing their own perspectives the two stories meld into one, and the result seems absolutely irrefutable. Until someone makes a claim about a red shoe that isn't correct, to which the believer will simply disregard it and continue to focus on the things that haven't been refuted. It's a form of argument that's almost impossible to defeat because the true believer will simply move on to the next example, and the next one, and the next one... It's like trying to defend against a terrorist attack, the skeptic has to defeat every single version, while the believer only has to come up with a single inexplicable example in order to consider themselves to be vindicated.

Anecdotal stories simply aren't trustworthy. Even well intentioned people can be vulnerable to misremembering and embellishing what was in the end just a perfectly natural and totally explicable event.

So does this mean that I won't accept any evidence at all? No. Combined, AWARE and AWARE II placed thousands of visual markers on hospital shelves around the U.K, U.S. and Austria. So far nobody has reported seeing any of them. If someday, someone does, then you can call it a veridical NDE, but until then it's all just anecdotal.

Unless you've got one that you find particularly convincing, in which case bring it on. But don't expect me to pick one, because then you'd just go find another. You get one chance... make it a good one.
 
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Bradskii

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...the skeptic has to defeat every single version, while the believer only has to come up with a single inexplicable example in order to consider themselves to be vindicated.
Well written. And the point above is exactly right. 'Don't like that one? Well here's a other half a dozen.' To the point where we have statements like this: 'its a weak arguement when 10s of 1,000's of 1st hand testimonies are dismissed to have no substance.'

That's not a logical argument. Tens of thousands of examples of weak, anecdotal evidence doesn't increase the veracity of the claim. It just shows that there's nothing but lots of weak, anecdotal evidence.

I look forward to Steve's go-to, cannot-be-denied, rock solid example. Let's face it, if there are tens of thousands to choose from, then at least one will be a winner. But let it be known, as you said, each of the proponents of this claim gets the one chance.
 
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Aussie Pete

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As far as I'm concerned, I'm happy to be out of it while undergoing surgery.
 
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public hermit

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If you take away all thought from the mind, all that remains is pure potential for thought, which is, essentially, nothing. I promise, if you go deep within yourself, you will find a desert that blossoms. You are not your thoughts. Remove your thoughts, and God lurks there.


The waste-land and the dry land will be glad. The desert will be full of joy and become like a rose
 
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stevevw

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Thanks. I will. Please don't waste your time posting any more.
So you made a claim that dismissed NDE and even rideculed this with the tennis shoe example implying that all NDE were the same. You sent out a challenge when you said "is that all you've got".

I then supply examples in response to that challenge and now you don't want to know. It only proves my point that people will dismiss the evidence and have already made their minds up due to their prior beliefs.
 
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Bradskii

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No, I'm not going to investigate each and every example you throw up. Knock them back and show they are worthless and you'll simply throw a few more into the mix.

Pick the very best one you know of. Give us the links. One that can be investigated and isn't simply she said, he said, someone said. Pick the very best one and if it's no good then every single one that's not as good will be discounted. You said you have thousands to choose from so there must be some really good examples somewhere.

Let's hear about it. Whenever you are ready, post the links and we'll look at it. But it must be the one that you consider to be the very best one. I'll be here waiting.
 
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stevevw

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But your assuming that its anecdotal evidence in the first place when its actually based on factual evdience, verified eye witness accounts like we do for many things. If someone says they seen a particular thing or heard a particular discussion while unconscious or dead then we can veerify if this is the case. THat is what many of these NDE have provided.

You have not argued every case so your not in a position to make any claims. I suspect that you knew some of those cases were exactly how partinobodycular said they were "inexplicable examples".

The point is I have'nt discussed this topic with you so claiming about throwing examples at you cannot be used as a reason. You sent out a challenge, I responded with examples and you didn't even bother to argue against any of them. You gave up before the debate even started.

Also anecdotal evidence does have its place. When we hear that many people are experiencing X the shear weight of numbers lends support that something is actually being experienced. Something is happening that needs to be investigate rather than just an anecdote.
Like I said I have already supplied those examples. Lets just use one example if you object to a few.

As NDE is about consciousness there is no other way to understand what is happening apart from the anecdotal evidence, the testimonies of those who had the NDE and those who witnessed them. There is no test tube we can put NDE or conscious experience into. Yet we are quite happy to take anecdotal evidence and personal testimony and experience when it comes to other issues.

But evenso I haven't just relied on personal experiences but also given arguements for why NDE may be real by how consciousness beyond the physical brain has also been argued scientifically in other fields like physics, evolution and psychology. How the materialism and reductionism cannot account for what is happening with the transcendental aspects of consciousness. This also lends weight to the personal testimonies of those who have these experiences.
 
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Bradskii

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But your assuming that its weak anecdotal evidence in the first place.
I'll tell you what I think of it when you make your selection of the very best one you know of that shows a 'veridical' nde. I'll wait here for the links.
 
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