Gays in the army

[Jay217]

I acknowleded the guy's claim, anddisputed it. That's far from ignoring his stance. He can hold it, and I can disagree with it.

Actually the US Military can, since its a voluntary program/ contract.

Just because you volunteer doesn't mean you can join. If your mentally or physically unfit you can not join. If you have any psychological issues that can impede or endanger another member of the military you can not join.

It is still a strict organization that follows guidelines to get to its objective, when its being pushed into PC thinking work doesn't get done and in the military that lack of work due to the loss of efficiency means the loss of lives.

I don't think I made this claim.

you said

If you mix them together with the soldiers, the soldiers will always be watching them and the gays self asteam will get so low from all the crap he will have to take he will be useless.
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This is the exact same argument used against women and blacks. Both times, this was proven false. Also don't speak for other people.

soldiers did have issues with women and blacks unlike your posts implied.


Can you source the US military doing this. It would be nice to read up on it and figure out how I stand on it. Please and thank you.

It isn't that hard to find but here is a nice easy paragraph that can explain some of it.

Military History Online - US Army in World War II

specifically the 1st paragraph.

perhaps worst of all, segregation meant that a large percentage o the available manpower, African-Americans, were restricted to service support organization and a few separate combat units.

This is Still ww2 and yet there is still segregation for much of it. So thats 1940's thats still over 100 years of racial segregation in the army...

I'm not sure where you where going with this rant.

Just to clarify both examples when you said Blacks and Women, i posted about blacks so fairly i had to post about women.

That's cool.

Thanks i'm not a bigot.

Can you ellaborate on what you mean by learning to equate. I'm not sure exactly what I'm doing that normal boys my age do that is so weird. I only find men more attractive then women. What exactly do I need to equate?

All men should have the same responsibilities and values in the army. Gay men should not have any special privileges letting them express their sexual ideas in the force just like it should be suppressed in the straight man. Don't like it? Don't join.

I really don't care if someone embraces me. I just want the same opportunities and the ability to defend my country when needed, without having special penalties forced on me because someone is uncomfortable about possibly finding out I have a boy friend back home or that I went to a gay bar on leave.

It doesn't matter what you do in the private time away from base, but in the forces you shouldn't tell and flaunt those ideals, nor should anyone enquirer you about that.

 

[fester30]

Just because you volunteer doesn't mean you can join. If your mentally or physically unfit you can not join. If you have any psychological issues that can impede or endanger another member of the military you can not join.

It is still a strict organization that follows guidelines to get to its objective, when its being pushed into PC thinking work doesn't get done and in the military that lack of work due to the loss of efficiency means the loss of lives.



you said


soldiers did have issues with women and blacks unlike your posts implied.


Can you source the US military doing this. It would be nice to read up on it and figure out how I stand on it. Please and thank you.



This is Still ww2 and yet there is still segregation for much of it. So thats 1940's thats still over 100 years of racial segregation in the army...


Just to clarify both examples when you said Blacks and Women, i posted about blacks so fairly i had to post about women.

Thanks i'm not a bigot.



All men should have the same responsibilities and values in the army. Gay men should not have any special privileges letting them express their sexual ideas in the force just like it should be suppressed in the straight man. Don't like it? Don't join.



It doesn't matter what you do in the private time away from base, but in the forces you shouldn't tell and flaunt those ideals, nor should anyone enquirer you about that.

This isn't about expression of sexual ideas. I'm straight. I'm married. Everybody knows this. They know I have a wife. A homosexual in the military had to keep that side of himself a secret, and if outed by no fault of his own, was kicked out for it. Many gays did not want their sexual preference out there during DADT because of DADT, but the information often still found its way to the chain of command. They shouldn't have that hanging over them while in combat. I would hate the idea of having to hide my wife from my workplace because of my sexual preference.

Sure, there were growing pains when the military integrated racially in 1948, and there will be growing pains with the end of DADT. You go through it now or later, one way or another. The sooner the better in my opinion.

One Air Force E-6 said he will separate because he can't stand the idea of showering with homosexuals. Newsflash... he has been showering with homosexuals, and probably has had one for a bunkmate. He just didn't know about it, and was happy in his ignorance.

Yes, certain psychological issues can prevent you from joining the military. There is still such thing as "lawful discrimination," which is to say it's discrimination that is not illegal, in the military, such as women not being allowed in ground combat. However, homosexuality is not a psychological issue or condition. If lives are put in danger because of a homosexual being in a combat unit, that is the fault of the prejudiced bigots that can't stand having one around, not the fault of the patriotic homosexual that just wants to serve his country. Not all homosexual men are lady-like, and that's one of the worries I have heard of from combat units, that they would show up for battle wearing skirts and limp-wristed, not being able to shoot straight or carry their injured buddies to safety. This is just more bigoted prejudicial nonsense.

The military is over 20% atheist... the civilian USA is about 15%. Yet the military is still more fundamentalist Christian in its institutions than civilian life. There is an official prayer at official events such as change of command ceremonies and memorial day ceremonies, and the prayer is always a Christian prayer in Jesus name. It's unfair to Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, and atheists. It's also unfair that they push their dogma into the military legal system, such as the banning of homosexuals (banned by Congress until now because of military attitudes at the time). Consensual sodomy is still a crime under the UCMJ, as is adultery. These are ridiculous laws in the military justice system, and are all based upon religious ideology.

 

[briareos]

As sad as it is, I agree. I am a Christian and I serve in the Army but the military has quite a few sexist or religious fundamental ideals that aren't fair to everyone of diffrent beliefs. DADT was certainly not. Regulation and published military literature such as "The NCO Guide" written by CSM Rush (ret) specificly states that homosexuality is not conducive to the military culture, values and ideals. As simple as that. It specificly says that homosexuality is a breach in military values. That's crap... completely not fair.

As noted above it's regulation concerning legal sexual positions is nonsense and that's why literally no one cares about it. The regulation on the legal sexual positions defines anything except the missionary position as "unnatural copulation" unnatural? I wonder where you get that? It comes from religious influence.
It's DoD policies concerning women serving used to be A LOT more nonsense than it is now but even now it's still based on the same sexist standards, remembering how it used to be shows how it is actually sexist. Back in WW2 or earlier women could only serve as nurses etc, then it got changed that only 2% of the military staffing could be filled by women then a policy called "the risk rule" was adopted where woman could not serve in any position placing them in an amount of risk equal to that of combat soldier. Such as driving a gas truck or mail through a dangerous war zone or being a medic on a chopper that flies into a war zone to medivac fallen soldiers.
The risk rule was later dismissed but even today the policy states that women cannot serve at a BCT or lower who's primary mission is to engage hostile enemies in combat. The regulation doesn't state that women can't serve in combat or say infantry, it actually says the words above, which accomplish the same thing. They could serve in an infantry unit at Division or higer.
The idea was and still is, that women cannot serve in positions that primarily risk their lives. The rule is becoming more and more lenient but that is what it remains to be, and it's completely sexist. It totally is. But that is how it is. The regulation does not talk about body composition, physical fitness standards, ability to perform in combat, female hygein concerns... the regulation states they cannot serve in a mission that routinely engages enemies in combat, that's it and 50 years ago the rule was called "the risk rule" saying they could not risk their lives.
The issue is women aren't supposed to die, aren't supposed to fight, aren't supposed to face enemies or participate in combat becuase they just don't belong there whether they want to or not. Totally sexist becuase it enforces social stereotypical roles which is the definition of sexism. The DADT came from the same thing, it's religious fundamentalism. As much as I love the military, my country, it is wrong.

I do believe though that the President recently ordered an investigation into the current policy.

 

[Cash80]

Gay guys are often treated very poorly in the army. We had a gay guy in my company, and he was not exactly welcomed very warmly. While that was mostly because he was a very manipulative and all-round lying jerk and coward him being gay was also part of the equation. It was not very comforting to be in the shower or work out while this guy was close by sending lustful glances your way. It was especially discomforting knowing he was a fairly enthusiastic consumer of homosexual pornography.

Had he behaved properly though, skipped the gay porn as well as the lustful looks he'd have been accepted much more readily. But I fear he'd still be avoided and possibly treated poorly. Since he did not, and we got very very tired of his neglects and outrageously poor behavior we had him kicked out of the army. So he got a dishonorable discharge. You can imagine there were many reasons why this particular guy was severely disliked.

As for other gay guys... I don't know... I know it's a problem, and I did do some work to try and make life easier for gay guys in the army in lieu of my position as a soldier's representative on a national level. I worked with the LLH and the nation's politicians to try and help homosexuals have a better time in the army. Regardless of whether you like or dislike homosexuality (I don't like it) I don't think it's defensible to discriminate or bully homosexuals. They can be good soldiers, and if they are they should be treated as any other soldier. Or officer for that matter.
That said, sexual attraction CAN be a disturbing factor in the armed forces, so elite troops where performance must be optimal at all times I think homosexuals and women should be excluded. Or, in the case of women, put in different companies.

Did all this happen in Norwegian or American army?

 

[sphsjags]

President Obama and Defense Secretary Panetta have signed off on the DADT repeal. There is now a 60 day waiting period until gay, lesbian, and bisexual servicemembers can be open about their sexual orientation, and can enlist openly. The date is September 20th, 2011.
Obama, Pentagon Certify End of Gay Ban Won't Harm Military

 

[Gishin]

President Obama and Defense Secretary Panetta have signed off on the DADT repeal. There is now a 60 day waiting period until gay, lesbian, and bisexual servicemembers can be open about their sexual orientation, and can enlist openly. The date is September 20th, 2011.
Obama, Pentagon Certify End of Gay Ban Won't Harm Military

Note to mods, that is thumbs up to the repeal, not thumbs up to homosexuality, whatever that means.

 

[Wayte]

Excellent news, I was worried they were going to find a way to stall this somehow.

 

[TheReasoner]

Did all this happen in Norwegian or American army?

Norwegian.

 

[Steve Petersen]

The really difficult issue for me is how do you work out billeting?

Straights won't want to share shower and rooms with gays.

Women won't want gays in their showers and rooms either.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Not true, in the slightest.

On both of my previous ships, we had that one blatantly flamboyant guy with us. Exactly 0 people cared if he showered at the same time as us, or just waited until a different time to shower.

While I was in the Army in the 80's we had men and women in the same unit. They were billeted on separate floors and trespass was punishable.

There were gays and lesbians in this unit. Not conjecture, but observation. The women I talked to were uncomfortable sharing facilities with the lesbians.

 

[Wayte]

The really difficult issue for me is how do you work out billeting?

Straights won't want to share shower and rooms with gays.

Women won't want gays in their showers and rooms either.

You do all kinds of things that suck in the military, it comes with the job. They'll say deal with it, and we'll deal with it, just like everything else.

 

[Cash80]

Once you take religion out of the picture, there is no argument against gays in the military.

What about the concern that gays and lesbians might make a move on somebody in the shower, and it will be difficult to do anything about it?

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT


Closing this thread. As a reminder, the site rules include:


● Do not promote homosexuality on Christian Forums. Homosexuality can only be discussed, without promotion, in Christian Communities and Faith Groups. Homosexuality may also be discussed in the Recovery and Ask a Chaplain forums solely for the purpose of seeking support with struggles overcoming same-sex attractions, and homosexual issues.
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