Gays in the army

[Jay217]

I think it would take a little more than the removal of DADT to make the military "gay friendly". I think you will find the homosexual men and women that sign up are going to be incredibly serious about doing their job because they have chosen a career path which will present them with difficulties - they must really want to do it.

I still don't get the "vulgar language" link - harrassment is harrassment, it is different to saing "I'm gay". If someone came up to me and, with no prompting, told me their sexual preference and marital status, I'd think it was an odd thing to do. I wouldn't be threatened. How is it threatening? Or are you suggesting it is vulgar for someone to say that they are gay?

Taking a more realistic scenario, if you are talking to someone and you ask them if they "have a husband/wife back home" or something like that, and they say "No, I'm gay", is there any harrassment there? Is it vulgar? I think it is just a statement of fact. This is the kind of thing which a homosexual man or woman can not answer with honesty right now for fear of discharge.

Would you seriously feel threatened if someone told you they were gay? What do you think they are going to do to you?

I don't know why you think this has anything to do with "endorsing homosexual behaviour" within the military. It isn't about encouraging members of the military to have sexual relationships with each other, which I agree is problematic, regardless of whether it is straight or gay. It is just about letting people be honest and not have to hide who they are so that they can continue to serve.

If you really have no problem with gay people enlisting, what is the problem with them being able to be openly gay? They aren't "forcing minority views" on you - they just want the right not to be kicked out of the army if it is revealed that they are gay. No one will be kicked out of the military just for being straight, so I don't see why anyone should be kicked out just for being gay.

Exactly My point they know whats in the Job so why must they demand more?

If a Man makes a comment even saying how well she looks today the man can be punished just like any Gay person who makes a comment to a straight person.

*True Story* I was talking to a man my age and then during conversation he came closer and told me he was Gay.

All he did was say his sexual preference. But the way of presenting words can have different effects. Yes it could've been a simple statement but when you add all of his actions it was a pass at myself. Was i Offended? Yes. did i tell him off? Yes, because i don't believe in homosexuality and here he tried to put me in the situation. If i had work with this person would any friendship or any action be strained? Yes.

If these actions cause strain among members ecspecially where your LIFE depends on the actions of your fellow soldiers do you want to risk straining many of these bonds?

Well where do you draw the line? Should they be allowed to say their allowed to be gay and not be discharged? How freely can they express their lifestyle? what would happen if a gay soldier made an advance on a fellow male soldier? Similarly what will you do if a Straight man made an advance on a female soldier?

They shouldn't be discharged IMO. however advancement should face serious reprecussion no matter what the sex or lifestyle.

 

[Wirraway]

retired USN and I didn't care, the ones I knew about didn't bother me. harassment, on the other hand, is something entirely different but that isn't what's being talked about here.

if the government wants to make the armed forces a vehicle of social change, it wouldn't be the first time its been done. some of the more virulent objections to gays seem on par with the same objections to blacks serving alongside whites. so if the CinC says to integrate, then the services will have to integrate.

 

[nolongerhome]

Exactly My point they know whats in the Job so why must they demand more?

They are just demanding the same as others. The fact that they go into the job knowing that they will almost definitely suffer discrimination is no reason to just allow that discrimination to continue. When the army was racially de-segrated would you have said that the blacks should just accept discrimination because "they knew what's in the job"?

If a Man makes a comment even saying how well she looks today the man can be punished just like any Gay person who makes a comment to a straight person.

*True Story* I was talking to a man my age and then during conversation he came closer and told me he was Gay.

All he did was say his sexual preference. But the way of presenting words can have different effects. Yes it could've been a simple statement but when you add all of his actions it was a pass at myself. Was i Offended? Yes. did i tell him off? Yes, because i don't believe in homosexuality and here he tried to put me in the situation. If i had work with this person would any friendship or any action be strained? Yes.

Being propositioned like that can be considered harrassment. We are not talking about encouraging or condoning harrassment, so it is irrelevant.

If these actions cause strain among members ecspecially where your LIFE depends on the actions of your fellow soldiers do you want to risk straining many of these bonds?

There are many things that can cause strain amongst people - sexuality is just one. There is race, politics, religion, sporting team affiliation, simple personality clashes... basically any difference can be a strain.

Do you want a homogenous military? Say, only white, protestant, straight males allowed?

Professional soldiers are supposed to be above letting these distractions cloud their judgments when they are in action - if they aren't capable of working with a variety of different people, they are not fit for service.

Well where do you draw the line? Should they be allowed to say their allowed to be gay and not be discharged? How freely can they express their lifestyle? what would happen if a gay soldier made an advance on a fellow male soldier? Similarly what will you do if a Straight man made an advance on a female soldier?

It is clear where the line is drawn. They should be able to be open about their sexuality without fear of discharge. They should be held to the same standards of behaviour when it comes to propositioning fellow soldiers or sexual harrassment as anyone else. An unwelcome proposition is a form of harrassment.

How freely can they express their "lifestyle"? Well... what lifestyle? I would assume the answer to this is "as freely as they like within the rules and regulations of the military".

They shouldn't be discharged IMO. however advancement should face serious reprecussion no matter what the sex or lifestyle.

I think we agree that sexual harrassment should not be accepted. We also agree that homosexuals shouldn't be discharged just because of their sexuality.

Yet I think the rule should be changed, and you don't. The difference is because you think that changing the rule would open the floodgates for an increase in homosexual activity and instances of harrassment. I see no reason at all to beleive this. I think, actually, if sexuality was treated more openly you would be less likely to see harrassment of this sort - the more open and honest people are, the less likely they are to have misunderstandings, feel the need to make unwanted propositions or engage in sureptitious affairs.

 

[Dragons87]

Hello, primitive people from shores yonder. Perhaps the Old Continent has a few more things to teach the New:

A very modern military partnership - Home News, UK - The Independent

I think you'd be very hard pressed to find evidence that Her Majesty's Forces have gone "soft" in the past 10 years or so years, since gays were finally openly allowed in 2000. Just look at our boys and girls fighting in Afghanistan. Being open about it means that people in the same team can be themselves, without pretending to be someone they aren't. That surely is good news for team cohesion.

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

I served on the USS Tarawa from 2004 to 2007. We had a number of gay and lesbian shipmates; their sexual preferences were known, and for the most part nobody cared. The only time it was an issue was when individuals were caught having sex on the ship (which is specifically prohibited under the UCMJ whether you're gay or straight), and it happened more with straight couples than gay couples (in the 3.5 years I was there, it happened maybe 6 or 7 times with straight couples, and only ONCE with a lesbian couple, who weren't even caught having sex - they were caught laying in the same rack, though, which is pretty telling).

 

[Jay217]

They are just demanding the same as others. The fact that they go into the job knowing that they will almost definitely suffer discrimination is no reason to just allow that discrimination to continue. When the army was racially de-segrated would you have said that the blacks should just accept discrimination because "they knew what's in the job"?

It's more of i I don't give a Rat's @## of what you do in your bed, or who you worship, or who you voted for. but if you have to make it public than it's not exactly streamline / Homogeneous.

Being propositioned like that can be considered harrassment. We are not talking about encouraging or condoning harrassment, so it is irrelevant.

So Harassment from every other piece of the puzzle is irrelevant if its not about how Gay's have it tough? If they keep their mouth shuts and their eyes on the job then there is no need to worry about harassment.

There are many things that can cause strain amongst people - sexuality is just one. There is race, politics, religion, sporting team affiliation, simple personality clashes... basically any difference can be a strain.

Do you want a homogenous military? Say, only white, protestant, straight males allowed?

Professional soldiers are supposed to be above letting these distractions cloud their judgments when they are in action - if they aren't capable of working with a variety of different people, they are not fit for service.

Race and Gender is a different issue as it is not a thing a person chooses. however every other thing you posted is a *Choice*. If you don't want to cause unrest than you keep politics out of the workplace. asking people to keep silent about everything is most likely asking too much especially on long days but they should be prepared to man up and face consequences that comes with it.

If you say something very political - politics, sports, etc then you open yourself to personal attack. You make the choice you face a reaction

And also it is also a double sword as if somebody does harass over one of these issues they made their choice and there for should face repercussion from their harassment.

It's wrong on both sides so by saying one side is Fine just causes unrest that can't be justified.

It is clear where the line is drawn. They should be able to be open about their sexuality without fear of discharge. They should be held to the same standards of behaviour when it comes to propositioning fellow soldiers or sexual harrassment as anyone else. An unwelcome proposition is a form of harrassment.

How freely can they express their "lifestyle"? Well... what lifestyle? I would assume the answer to this is "as freely as they like within the rules and regulations of the military".

Concur.

If i don't see it, hear it, feel it, smell it, taste it, I'm ok with it. (focus on the first 2 points just trying to cover all the senses )

I think we agree that sexual harrassment should not be accepted. We also agree that homosexuals shouldn't be discharged just because of their sexuality.

Yepp Agreed with your bolded paragraph

Yet I think the rule should be changed, and you don't. The difference is because you think that changing the rule would open the floodgates for an increase in homosexual activity and instances of harrassment. I see no reason at all to beleive this. I think, actually, if sexuality was treated more openly you would be less likely to see harrassment of this sort - the more open and honest people are, the less likely they are to have misunderstandings, feel the need to make unwanted propositions or engage in sureptitious affairs.

Rules should be looser - IE no discharge. But if we fully embrace them for their Personal Choices they make (Gay) it does open flood gates.

Hypotheically - If you have 10 Gay people and 40 Straight people.? Well if 1 in 5 Gay people act improperly and 1 in 10 straight people act improperly your still going to have more issues with straight people even though Gays are acting improperly per Capita.

To get good results is impossible - All straights are overly welcomed, gays are not welcomed enough. You will need to be very open with both sides and have the Same # of people of both Lifestyles (don't know what better word to use to describe sexuality).

 

[dbh]

I really don't understand why Gays are not allowed in the military. Their spilled blood is less honorable than a straight persons? I happen to be straight, but a homosexual coming up to me does not influence me to be gay. If a friend of mine was gay, I never felt my marriage be be threatened. Encouraging people to lie and to be basically dishonest seems against the Christian ethics as much as homosexuality. I don't tell straight people because they are having extra marital relations that they cannot be in the military, which is a sin according to the scriptures. The military is a nonreligious organization. Lets keep religion out of it. dhb

 

[Yusuf Evans]

One solid and effective standardized rule had to be set to keep problems away. It isn't that some high-up brass doesn't want gays in the Army.

That's exactly the problem. There are two sets of rules for people in the military: gay and straight. Too many excellent Soldiers have been kicked out because they're gay, and I've seen too many less than stellar Soldiers be retained. It's a double standard and not because of some "percieved" reaction that individual Soldiers may have.

Call me weak or shallow or ignorant, but knowing the guy watching my back was gay would probably make me doubt him. Not only because he was gay, but if he was openly gay and he was.... how do I put this... not the most masculine person..... it would definitely be a problem for me to trust him.

The last time I was in Iraq, my roomate was gay. However, that didn't bother me and we got along just great. The first 3 years(of my 9 in the Marines) I was a grunt. I worked with 2 Marines that were gay and neither one of them were wimpy or feminine like; they were balls to the wall as hardcore as any other Marine grunt. Only difference is the crew they liked to party with during their personal times. These arguments people have concerning gays not being allowed to serve openly are based on nothing but propoganda and fear.

 

[SoccerCoach]

I served on the USS Tarawa from 2004 to 2007. We had a number of gay and lesbian shipmates; their sexual preferences were known, and for the most part nobody cared. The only time it was an issue was when individuals were caught having sex on the ship (which is specifically prohibited under the UCMJ whether you're gay or straight), and it happened more with straight couples than gay couples (in the 3.5 years I was there, it happened maybe 6 or 7 times with straight couples, and only ONCE with a lesbian couple, who weren't even caught having sex - they were caught laying in the same rack, though, which is pretty telling).

I cannot stomach seeing gay men together. It is not natural, of course, but it makes my stomach sick.

 

[nolongerhome]

I cannot stomach seeing gay men together. It is not natural, of course, but it makes my stomach sick.

I think you need to look up what the word natural means.

If you can't stomach it that is an issue for you, not for them.

 

[Aces High]

Sexual orientation has no bearing on an individual's want to serve their nation, and it should not be held against them. Psychological tests are conducted anyways and weed out the types that join the military for the wrong reasons.

 

[laconicstudent]

I cannot stomach seeing gay men together. It is not natural, of course, but it makes my stomach sick.

You are using the word "natural" incorrectly. And if it makes you sick, that is, as Aces said, your own problem, not theirs. You'll get over it.

 

[Yusuf Evans]

I cannot stomach seeing gay men together. It is not natural, of course, but it makes my stomach sick.

How can you tell two men walking together are gay or not? Do you have a super honed gaydar? How could you tell if two guys just talking and walking casually down the street, are straight or gay?

 

[Jay217]

How can you tell two men walking together are gay or not? Do you have a super honed gaydar? How could you tell if two guys just talking and walking casually down the street, are straight or gay?

For Me I don't mind the toned down/'normal'/closet gays. It's the light footed cheery piped gays i have the issues with.

I've worked with a Gay guy before and we discussed politics and history like normal people and we stayed away from relationship talk as that'd cause conflict as he knows i'm a strong Catholic. We worked nicely together because he did not flare his gay pride.

However I've seen guys in the mall in tight clothes holding hands and talking to everyone in sight with their flippy wrists and literally all that stereotypical jazz, If you even mentioned anything about their sexuality they'd explode on you and beak your life. These give me queezy and bad feelings.

There not only sinned but are flaring their unnatural desires towards everyone which I am not comfortable with.
Yes they got free speech but It's still a socially inappropriate action.

I like my conservative saying - I'll [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] on my lawn you can [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] on yours,

Or a better fit You can do what you want in your bedroom and i can do what i want in mine but don't bring it outside to the public.

 

[Spartan 421]

Gays are people, and I sure as hell know I'd be pretty [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]ed and beak someones life if some tightwad came up to me and told me to tone down my straightness.

 

[Jay217]

Gays are people, and I sure as hell know I'd be pretty [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]ed and beak someones life if some tightwad came up to me and told me to tone down my straightness.

You never heard of people complaining about PDA s? Lots of that goes for straight people as well, if you see a guy grab/slap every female rear-end in sight there will be a group of people tell him to smarten up or get out of there. And back to the PDA its becoming more mainstream that most PDA is becoming socially bad, so that itself could be a way of 'toning down your straightness'. Keep it within reason or not show it at all.

Theres a difference between holding a guys hand and chanting 'Gay is the Way' and there is a difference between holding the opposite sex's hand and doing more Vulgar PDA in public.

 

[Gishin]

You have to admit more people are likely to freak out at men holding hands then they are a man and a woman.

 

[LightHorseman]

For Me I don't mind the toned down/'normal'/closet gays. It's the light footed cheery piped gays i have the issues with.

I've worked with a Gay guy before and we discussed politics and history like normal people and we stayed away from relationship talk as that'd cause conflict as he knows i'm a strong Catholic. We worked nicely together because he did not flare his gay pride.

However I've seen guys in the mall in tight clothes holding hands and talking to everyone in sight with their flippy wrists and literally all that stereotypical jazz, If you even mentioned anything about their sexuality they'd explode on you and beak your life. These give me queezy and bad feelings.

There not only sinned but are flaring their unnatural desires towards everyone which I am not comfortable with.
Yes they got free speech but It's still a socially inappropriate action.

I like my conservative saying - I'll [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] on my lawn you can [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] on yours,

Or a better fit You can do what you want in your bedroom and i can do what i want in mine but don't bring it outside to the public.

Why the heck would you say anything about the sexuality of a couple of strangers?

If you came up to me and started passing judgement on my sexuality in the mall, I'd probably "explode on you and beak your life" too. (I don't know what that means, but it sounds pretty negative) And I'm very straight.

 

[LightHorseman]

You never heard of people complaining about PDA s? Lots of that goes for straight people as well, if you see a guy grab/slap every female rear-end in sight there will be a group of people tell him to smarten up or get out of there. And back to the PDA its becoming more mainstream that most PDA is becoming socially bad, so that itself could be a way of 'toning down your straightness'. Keep it within reason or not show it at all.

Theres a difference between holding a guys hand and chanting 'Gay is the Way' and there is a difference between holding the opposite sex's hand and doing more Vulgar PDA in public.

Have you ever seen any gays guys grab/slapping every male rear-end in sight?

 

[sphsjags]

It looks like gays will be serving pretty soon if the DoD doesn't mount a good enough defense. And some Pentagon survey results have been released saying most troops wouldn't mind serving with homosexuals. The next issue would just be how the armed forces respond to the "integration". I'm so glad this is finally becoming a reality.