Gay Relationship

[dayhiker]

Grump,
Thanks for the info on Neuroscience.

From my reading of the verses in the KJV of the Bible that speak of an abombination almost 80% are clearly referring to idol worship. So when I find a verse is used that often to refer to a specific subject then I understand that they others times the word it used would also refer to idol worship unless the context clearly shows it isn't. That makes the verses on "homosexuality" fit much closer with the other things that God gets really upset about.

 

[Grace51]

Grump,
Thanks for the info on Neuroscience.

From my reading of the verses in the KJV of the Bible that speak of an abombination almost 80% are clearly referring to idol worship. So when I find a verse is used that often to refer to a specific subject then I understand that they others times the word it used would also refer to idol worship unless the context clearly shows it isn't. That makes the verses on "homosexuality" fit much closer with the other things that God gets really upset about.

well, many of you can try to justify homosexual lifestyles. but the only ONE that get to decide what is a sin and not. God do not hate homosexuals. but the lifestyle is forbidden.

 

[dayhiker]

So, Grace, what was wrong with my study of how the word abombination was used.

 

[Stealth001]

The Bible states that we are all born with a sinful nature. Our flesh has sinful passions and desires. So we’re ALL BORN SINNERS. When someone says, “I was born this way!” I fully agree. I was born the way I am.

A man is a trichotomy. Body (biological), soul (psyche), and spirit (breath, or essence of life). Through sin we are all fallen creatures with a sinful and carnal nature. The effects of our fallen nature extends down into our genes. So yes, I too think that those who struggle with this issue are biologically predisposed to it. It’s evidence of a fallen nature.

Being born again regenerates the spirit and one is spiritually one with Christ Jesus.
Renewing the mind through study of the Word and prayer renews our minds and allows us to focus on who we truly are in Christ.

But what about the body? It’s fully possible that one be “born again”, now having a new and abiding nature in their spirit through the Holy Spirit, and still struggle with wrong thinking. One can be born again and renew their minds through the Word… and still struggle with biological dispositions. The body will not be regenerated until the resurrection. So most of us struggle with the lusts of our flesh, whatever they might be, throughout our lives. Homosexuals are no different. We all need a touch of God in our bodies to aid us. A “healing touch” if you will. Without that miracle, no amount of conversion therapy that only effects the mind will bring deliverance. In other words…only God can change a person who is actually a homosexual. We can’t change them. They can’t change themselves. If God fills their repentant souls with the Holy Ghost, they are brothers and sisters now. They might have struggles that are far different from ours… but we must not be cruel to them, treating their disposition as though it is worse than our own. Christ died for them too.

Now… as to lifestyle of the homosexual Christian. I believe a study of ancient eunuchs would prove valuable. Homosexuals are mentioned in the Bible in several places, but they are mentioned with words of grace. For example, the centurion who had a servant that he desired to have healed. Anyone who has studied the lifestyle of a centurion and the role their “servant” had would instantly know that this was a very immoral situation by the Law’s standards. And when Jesus requested to see the servant, the centurion stated he was “unworthy” to have Jesus enter his home. Please note… the man knew that according to the Law the man’s home was not worthy of having a holy man visit. The man testified that he believed that Jesus had the authority to say the word and his servant be healed. Jesus bragged on the man’s faith, and the man’s servant was healed that very hour.

Shocked that Jesus didn’t call him vile and demand that he “turn or burn”?

Think about the Samaritan woman at Jacob’s well. Jesus went out of his way to talk to her. They talked about Jesus being the living water and her never thirsting again, but she didn’t get it. Jesus then asks her to go bring her husband. She states that she has no husband. Jesus reveals that he knows her circumstance. He reveals that he knows that she had been married five times….and was currently living with a man who wasn’t her husband. He didn’t rebuke her for being a “shacked-up honey”. No. Jesus began to reveal to her that he was the Messiah. Upon immediately upon receiving Christ’s testimony of Himself , she ran back to her town and told all about Him. Then the entire community came forward and heard the words of Jesus, many believing in Him. Who was their “evangelist”? A woman who was divorced five times and was currently living with a man who wasn’t her husband. Wow.

So… I’m not sure exactly how exactly to help a homosexual along in their journey. I’m still studying. But I know this… God loves them. And I know that God will make a way for those who call on Him, regardless of their struggles, temptations, and failures.

 

[Stealth001]

And then there is something that bothers me...

Those who think it is a "choice" must obviously feel like they themselves could "choose" to be gay. That troubles me because many men, such as myself, don't feel we could ever "choose" to be gay. I've been straight for as far back as I can remember. Many gays state they had been gay from as far back as they could remember. Many also say that they'd much rather not be gay. If it's a choice... what gives? Some have even committed suicide over their inability to change.

Let's be real here. The church used to think the MRDD were demonized. Many endured brutal "exorcisms" at the hands of the church. Some even drowned to death to set them free of the "demon". Today we curse gay people. But what if there is a distinction here that we're missing? What if it's an infirmity that needs grace and healing?

Oh well... I'm sure I'll be misinterpreted. lol

 

[GrumpGrump]

well, many of you can try to justify homosexual lifestyles. but the only ONE that get to decide what is a sin and not. God do not hate homosexuals. but the lifestyle is forbidden.

It always struck me as wildly hubristic to claim to know, without doubt, what God thinks. Your information, recorded by (fallible) humans, is thousands of years old, translated hundreds of times, part oral tradition and part written fragment, huge portions of which have been lost, destroyed, forgotten, and altered. Not to mention-- subject to political games, social hierarchies, and institutional rivalries.

It is basically the longest, messiest game of telephone ever-- and people still claim to know, absolutely and without question, what God said in the first exchange.

When it comes to commanding people to live their entire lives in solitude, without romance, companionship, or sexual fulfillment, based on some prejudice against their biology that's derived from a several-thousand-year-old game of telephone, I think it's prudent to err on the side of caution. "Caution," in this case, means not stigmatizing and antagonizing an entire group of people who just want to be able to fall in love and live peacefully. In other words, "caution" means promoting love (as in, loving my neighbor) when there's no harm being done to anyone or anything.

 

[LinkH]

It always struck me as wildly hubristic to claim to know, without doubt, what God thinks. Your information, recorded by (fallible) humans, is thousands of years old, translated hundreds of times, part oral tradition and part written fragment, huge portions of which have been lost, destroyed, forgotten, and altered. Not to mention-- subject to political games, social hierarchies, and institutional rivalries.

Maybe you would like to study a bit more about the consistency of scripture throughout time. There are a number of books about it.

We know that hubris is bad, after all, from reading scriptures revealed by God.

It is basically the longest, messiest game of telephone ever-- and people still claim to know, absolutely and without question, what God said in the first exchange.

Those who are His also have the Holy Spirit.

 

[The Nihilist]

We know that hubris is bad, after all, from reading scriptures revealed by God.

I don't think Greek tragedies count as scripture...?

 

[GrumpGrump]

Maybe you would like to study a bit more about the consistency of scripture throughout time. There are a number of books about it.

Certainly. I'd be interested to know to which books you are referring. And, of course, some basic information about the authors (are they historians or theologians?) and the publishers (are they churches or academic institutions?)-- in the interest of reading an unbiased study. My desire for the unbiased cuts both ways, of course. I'm no more interested in reading Dawkins than the Pope.

A brief foray into the land of the Internet has not told me much about the consistency of the Bible through time, except that churches would like to tell me that it's very consistent despite 200,000 (conservative estimate) textual variations in New Testament manuscripts alone. And also that there is a lot of jargon used in the tradition of Biblical textual criticism.

 

[LinkH]

Grump,
Thanks for the info on Neuroscience.

From my reading of the verses in the KJV of the Bible that speak of an abombination almost 80% are clearly referring to idol worship. So when I find a verse is used that often to refer to a specific subject then I understand that they others times the word it used would also refer to idol worship unless the context clearly shows it isn't. That makes the verses on "homosexuality" fit much closer with the other things that God gets really upset about.

Paul ties it in to idolatry, too. Because men worshipped and served the creature rather than the creator, God gave them over to such things as homosexual lusts and behavior.

The idea that homosexuality is okay if it is not done in connection with bowing down to literal statues is not consistent with either Moses or Paul's revelations on the subject.

 

[LinkH]

I don't think Greek tragedies count as scripture...?

from
Hubris - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard
Hubris

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number: 5196 Original WordWord Originubrißfrom (5228)Transliterated WordTDNT EntryHubris8:295,1200Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechhoo'-bris Noun Feminine Definition

1. insolence
   1. impudence, pride, haughtiness
2. a wrong springing from insolence, an injury, affront, insult
3. mental injury and wantonness of its infliction being prominent
4. injury inflicted by the violence of a tempest

 

[LinkH]

But why is it that so many other sins are forgiven, sins that are easily avoided, yet homosexuality, which is by no means a choice, isn't? People can stop themselves from stealing, lying, killing, and raping, but they can't stop being homosexual. Why condemn to hell the people who are accepting who they are and simply loving another?

That's just rhetoric. You can deal with regular sexual lusts without giving in to sin in thought, word, or deed. The same is true of homosexual lusts.

If you are a new creature in Christ Jesus, you shouldn't consider yourself a homosexual. You should reckon yourself to be dead indeed unto sin. The homosexual is dead, and the new man is alive.

No one is condemning loving another person. Love does not delight in iniquity but rejoices in the truth. Thinking homosexual behavior is okay is not truth. It is not loving. Having homosexual sex with another person--participating in something that causes that person to sin against God, is an unloving act. If you love your brother, would you want your brother to sin against God?

 

[GrumpGrump]

That's just rhetoric. You can deal with regular sexual lusts without giving in to sin in thought, word, or deed. The same is true of homosexual lusts.

Except that heterosexual Christians are permitted to indulge their lust in the context of marriage. They can have a companion, a life partner, and someone with whom they may share their lives. Heterosexual Christians can deal with their regular sexual lusts in a permissible way. Christianity condemns gay people to lives of loneliness, because there is no context in which their desires are permissible. No romantic relationships. No life partner. No children. Just a life of self-denial and self-hate. Because of their biology.

No one is condemning loving another person. Love does not delight in iniquity but rejoices in the truth. Thinking homosexual behavior is okay is not truth. It is not loving. Having homosexual sex with another person--participating in something that causes that person to sin against God, is an unloving act. If you love your brother, would you want your brother to sin against God?

And I dunno, this looks a lot like love to me: 60 Portraits of Gay Couples Just Married in New York. But I guess I don't presume to tell someone that they don't love someone else, since I could never know what is in another person's heart.

 

[LinkH]

Except that heterosexual Christians are permitted to indulge their lust in the context of marriage. They can have a companion, a life partner, and someone with whom they may share their lives. Heterosexual Christians can deal with their regular sexual lusts in a permissible way. Christianity condemns gay people to lives of loneliness, because there is no context in which their desires are permissible. No romantic relationships. No life partner. No children. Just a life of self-denial and self-hate. Because of their biology.

Again, you are buying into the whole philosophy that homosexuals are fundamentally different people. We are all human beings, designed to reproduce heterosexually. If someone calls himself homosexual, he can still only produce children with women, not with other men. It just doesn't work that way. Biologically, there isn't that much difference. There may be some influence from ancestry, whether heredity, or some sort of spiritual influence that carries down, but it certainly isn't pure biology. If it were, then it wouldn't be the case that girls who are raised by lesbians are extremely much more likely to be lesbian than girls raised in regular homes, and it wouldn't be the case that twins who are separated can have different 'orientations'.

If someone is tempted by homosexual lusts and gives in to them, he can have his sins forgiven and yield to the work of the Spirit in his life, and be healed in regard to his ungodly lusts. If he is so inclined, he can marry, and by that I mean with someone of the opposite sex, and have a normal life and have all the needs fulfilled that someone who did not engage in homosexual immorality has fulfilled. It can happen, and it has. People aren't purely hard-wired when it comes to sexual issues.

The New Testament uses 'lust' to refer to illegitimate desires. Paul wrote, "For I had not known lust if the law had not said, Thou shalt not covet." The New Testament says that marriage is holy in all, and the bed undefiled. It does not call marital passion, 'lust.' Homosexual desire is called lust. 'Lust' applies to desire for adultery, but it is not used to refer to marital sex in scripture, as far as I know.

And I dunno, this looks a lot like love to me: 60 Portraits of Gay Couples Just Married in New York. But I guess I don't presume to tell someone that they don't love someone else, since I could never know what is in another person's heart.

I'll pass. A lot of things pass for love. Some people love pizza. But engaging in sexual immorality is not God's kind of love. Participating in an act with someone else that is a sin against God and damages them spiritually is not God's kind of love.

 

[Grace51]

So, Grace, what was wrong with my study of how the word abombination was used.

i do not care on your study on how the word abomination is used. you did not even provide refs.

God word is loud and clear

Leviticus 18 22 " do not lie with a man as ones lies with a woman: that is detestable"

please pay attention to the words i have highlighted. i did not highlight the word detestable. ie the point here is that homosexual behaviours is not allowed.

i personally do not care for the way many christians like to single out homosexual sins as most" dirty and evil" that is unblilical.
but it still does not change the fact homosexual behaviours is one of the sins that God creations are not allowed to indulge in, period.

i am sorry, i know i sounds a bit harsh. i do acknowledge it is a heavy cross to bear. but the fact is even for heterosexual christians who dont find the right ones. they still have to bear the same cross.

Jesus never said following Him is going to be easy.

we need to learn to deal with it.

 

[LOCO]

I've been a believer all my life, but now something has happened. I have met this wonderful man, and now, after being very close friends for a long time, we've decided that we want to take our relationship to the next level. I think I might even want to marry him.

But I want to be a good christian! Can I love this man and still be loved in the eyes of the lord? Please, I need advice!

Ask your church elders this question. We come from different Christian schools of thought. Some churches say it's ok some are dead set against it and will even condemn you to hell. Others are indifferent. You will not receive one view of what is the right thing to do.

If you were Catholic I would say in our Church being homosexual is not a sin as it is not believed to be a choice. However, engaging in homosexual sex is a sin. Catholics are compelled by the Church to treat gays with respect and compassion.

 

[DarylFawcett]

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