Garden of Eden, tree of knowledge

[oi_antz]

That's exactly my point. God should have marked some random tree in the garden and told them not to eat from that one, at which point all they had to do was trust what God had told them, and not instead trust what the serpent told them. But instead God chose to deprive them of morality unless they chose to disobey Him.

If what you said is true, it would have been better for God to mark any other tree, not the one that could grant them morality. After all, it would still give them a choice, something they could disobey, and yet not deprive them of morality.

I think you fail to realize that is it the knowledge of morality that killed them.

Genesis 4:6-7
Then The Lord said to Cain "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

Now answer me a question. Has anyone ever lived who has mastered sin?

 

[oi_antz]

I think it would be far better than amoral humans that live forever. Don't you teach your children to distinguish good from evil? Why would you do that?

I think you misunderstand what happened when they gained the knowledge of good and evil. Suddenly they were prone to the temptation of sin like they had never been aware before. Until then they had no concept of sin, and they weren't amoral, just the idea to commit sin had never occurred to them at that point because there was no room for a tempter. They had always known not to eat the fruit and had no problem with God's terms of agreement.

 

[oi_antz]

Yet it was clearly not eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil that led to their deaths; and both God and the serpent equally deceived Adam and Eve by telling a half-truth. God deceived Adam and Eve by telling them that they would die if they ate from the tree, as if the act itself would kill them but without telling them that it would be God's reaction to their act that would kill them. The serpent also told a half-truth; they would indeed not die from eating the fruit but God's reaction to that act would be fatal and so they would die as a consequence.

As for your claim that this is an example of the serpent being a murderer, that is clearly false -- it was God who murdered Adam and Eve, as a reaction to their disobedience. Unless God does not have free will (and a good argument can be made that He does not), this would leave God and not the serpent as responsible for their deaths. This is similar to how the pastor that burned a Koran is not directly responsible for the actions of the rioters because the people have free will. "You made me do it" is not fitting for God.

I'm not really authorized to comment about this, only to say that Adam and Eve chose to obey the serpent instead of God, and until that time there was no concern about their lives. Only after eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil did the human's imminent death become a real issue. I think we face this daily, Christians say "you will answer to God for your sin", non-Christians say "you will surely not answer to God", and it is all centered around the exact same premise: do we trust what God says or what the serpent says? Sorry I can't answer your question Chris, maybe someone else can shed for you the light you need.

 

[razeontherock]

WE allow Satan into our lives. We have free will given to us by God.

The OP is long gone, and we had a thread covering Job that never went anywhere. I don't see Job as doing anything to "allow satan into his life." I think chapter 1 refutes that notion pretty strongly! (Talking about that point in time, not what transpires later)

So if you want to stick to this idea, you should be able to show that Job did something to "allow satan into his life," prior to chapter 1. And if you can't, you should be willing to accept that sometimes there's more to it.

 

[razeontherock]

Am I the only one who sees the blatantly obvious metaphors here? The God of the Bible didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. The Tree of Knowledge. Why didn't he want them to gain knowledge? Because he wanted them to remain ignorant. And if you're ignorant, you're easy to control. And if you're easy to control, you don't have a mind of your own. And if you don't have a mind of your own, you'll believe anything you're told.

No wonder followers of Christ are called sheep.

This has NOTHING to do with the story! You are imposing your own agenda upon it, and that doesn't result in understanding what is written.

 

[razeontherock]

Yet it was clearly not eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil that led to their deaths;

WOT?

and both God and the serpent equally deceived Adam and Eve by telling a half-truth.

Um - NO! You can't possibly hold such an opinion and trust G-d, can you?

God deceived Adam and Eve by telling them that they would die if they ate from the tree, as if the act itself would kill them but without telling them that it would be God's reaction to their act that would kill them.

Since that's not what happened, this leads to ... misunderstanding G-d. And that leaves a chink in your armor, that exposes you to distrusting Him, as you've evidenced here. Hopefully you can sort that out ...

it was God who murdered Adam and Eve

G-d SAVED Adam and Eve! That's an important distinction to make, wouldn't you think?

 

[razeontherock]

I think you misunderstand what happened when they gained the knowledge of good and evil. Suddenly they were prone to the temptation of sin like they had never been aware before. Until then they had no concept of sin, and they weren't amoral, just the idea to commit sin had never occurred to them at that point because there was no room for a tempter. They had always known not to eat the fruit and had no problem with God's terms of agreement.

This is why the traditional school of thought says this story is a metaphor for the awakening of the consciousness of mankind. This holds true both for the species, as well as the individual.

There's also another perfectly valid way of looking at it, (and I'm sure there are many more) which is that "knowledge" doesn't refer to anything intellectual at all, but rather to EXPERIENCE. A & E already knew good, so the only thing they "gained" was EVIL.

That'll kill ya, if you "know it" in the Biblical sense.

But what's the significance of all this? "Repent, for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand." Isn't it interesting that that's what Jesus preached?

 

[chris4243]

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

It was not the serpent's actions, nor Adam's actions, nor the effects of the fruit, but God Himself who sentenced Adam to death. Or is God an mindless force of nature, unable to make His own choices? God giveth, and God taketh away... but take away He did.

 

[chris4243]

There's also another perfectly valid way of looking at it, (and I'm sure there are many more) which is that "knowledge" doesn't refer to anything intellectual at all, but rather to EXPERIENCE. A & E already knew good, so the only thing they "gained" was EVIL.

So you are saying that God has experience with doing evil?

 

[oi_antz]

This is why the traditional school of thought says this story is a metaphor for the awakening of the consciousness of mankind. This holds true both for the species, as well as the individual.

There's also another perfectly valid way of looking at it, (and I'm sure there are many more) which is that "knowledge" doesn't refer to anything intellectual at all, but rather to EXPERIENCE. A & E already knew good, so the only thing they "gained" was EVIL.

That'll kill ya, if you "know it" in the Biblical sense.

But what's the significance of all this? "Repent, for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand." Isn't it interesting that that's what Jesus preached?

Hi Ray, I have always respected your comments to me, I've never known you to be one that tears down but rather to build up. Remember what I quoted from Paul the other day in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, it's sometimes good to recognise the materials we are using. I was told the other day that I need to use "grace" instead of "cutting", so we're all here to share observations with each other and how are we going to learn unless someone teaches us and we receive the teaching?

The part you said that I have bolded is the part I don't agree with. Firstly, I believe what the story says, that Adam and Eve were physically in the garden of Eden, the serpent tempted them, they ate the fruit and then were banished from the garden. Metaphors are nice and all, but that's not the intended context of the story.

I think that before being awakened to perceive the forces of good and evil, they were still agents of free will, so the question I think is relevant is what was there to stop them from being finger puppets to the forces of good and evil? My understanding shows that at the fall we became aware of these forces, and some of us willingly decide to give our lives in service to those forces.

Of course, there is only one Holy Spirit, so any "force of good" (angels of God) will only refer the human to call upon God. I think the other gods like to keep their captives in a state of delusion, because it makes them easier to control that way. How does that fit with your understanding Ray? Bearing in mind that you've studied more than I have, do you have a correction to make?

 

[oi_antz]

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

It was not the serpent's actions, nor Adam's actions, nor the effects of the fruit, but God Himself who sentenced Adam to death. Or is God an mindless force of nature, unable to make His own choices? God giveth, and God taketh away... but take away He did.

Can you please give some thought to what would happen if a human that couldn't master sin was allowed to live forever. You are ignoring the very premise of the purpose of human death. Also, can you please reply to my comments to you, I want you to think beyond blaming God for everything you hate.

 

[razeontherock]

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

It was not the serpent's actions, nor Adam's actions, nor the effects of the fruit, but God Himself who sentenced Adam to death. Or is God an mindless force of nature, unable to make His own choices? God giveth, and God taketh away... but take away He did.

And the very next thing G-d did was to begin His plan of Salvation, which has the goal of restoring Eternal Life.

 

[razeontherock]

So you are saying that God has experience with doing evil?

What does the Bible say about that?

Zepheniah 1:12 And it shall come to pass at that time, [that] I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil."

I would not want to be found dead, thinking in my heart that the Lord would not do evil. So you should take this as an affirmative answer to your question, but from the Almighty not me. I'm just pointing out things we know, that your theology fails to account for. G-d uses these things to correct our understanding, but it inevitably points to His extreme supremacy over us, and our inability to comprehend.

 

[razeontherock]

Remember what I quoted from Paul the other day in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, it's sometimes good to recognise the materials we are using.

A GREAT passage! But I'm not sure how you're applying it here?

we're all here to share observations with each other and how are we going to learn unless someone teaches us and we receive the teaching?

What I observe so often, is that people who think they disagree are simply not seeing the other's point. Just as one example, so many denominational differences are little more than the different meanings conveyed when using the same words. Maybe we'll find something like that here? Or better yet, maybe we'll help one another refine our understanding of HIM. Isn't that why you come here?

The part you said that I have bolded is the part I don't agree with. Firstly, I believe what the story says, that Adam and Eve were physically in the garden of Eden, the serpent tempted them, they ate the fruit and then were banished from the garden. Metaphors are nice and all, but that's not the intended context of the story.

Just this much is a real mouthful! I don't want to go off-topic, but I have to think this is ALL relevant to the OP. I certainly am not one to suggest this story didn't happen physically, but the Church has taught the metaphorical context of this story moreso than the literal by about 95%, with the literal stuff being almost an entirely new invention.

Not that the Church ever taught that this story did NOT happen, (that I'm aware of) but rather the benefit of it is in the way it applies to us, which is unrelated to the literal, physical aspect, and abstract in nature.

Now I know you know me well enough to realize I don't mention any of this to argue, but simply to give food for thought on something that has helped my own relationship w/ the Lord significantly. In fact, my Faith never "took off" until G-d answered my own questions about all this at length. The most basic elements of this story you obviously have a firm grasp of: G-d WILL Judge us, and if we don't like it that doesn't change anything. Neither do our excuses. So I hope you don't mind if I challenge you a bit? Wrestling with these ideas seems to be exactly what the OP needs.

Having said that, i do think our disagreement here is largely due to using the word "knowledge" differently. So I ask you, how did Adam "know" his wife? That's a bit different than something we know intellectually, or are merely aware of. It's first-hand experience, and of the most intimate kind.

I think that before being awakened to perceive the forces of good and evil, they were still agents of free will, so the question I think is relevant is what was there to stop them from being finger puppets to the forces of good and evil?

The same thing we have now: THE WORD OF GOD. It worked for Jesus

That's what we have, all by itself. "Is there a God beside me? yea, [there is] no God; I know not [any]." (Isaiah 44:8)

My understanding shows that at the fall we became aware of these forces, and some of us willingly decide to give our lives in service to those forces.

Of course, there is only one Holy Spirit, so any "force of good" (angels of God) will only refer the human to call upon God. I think the other gods like to keep their captives in a state of delusion, because it makes them easier to control that way. How does that fit with your understanding Ray?

I think this shows a crystal clear understanding. You mention a most significant point, that Adam and Eve didn't recognize the goodness of G-d.

This may just be one of the most profound concepts in Scripture. Certainly we can all think about how to apply this?

[My point that you disagreed with, was saying A & E already had first hand experience with good, but they had none re: evil. I think clarifying my previous statement as per usage of "knowledge," will change your disagreement on that point?]

 

[oi_antz]

A GREAT passage! But I'm not sure how you're applying it here?

Regarding post #87, you don't make sense. I think you should spend more time praying for God's blessing upon the post, use the preview function and really analyze what the post might mean to the person you are speaking to and before you publish it, read it several times to be sure you can't say it better by changing a word here and there.

I know I'm not the first person who has told you that it is difficult to understand what you mean. As a brother in the faith, I really feel that your work on the site would be improved quite easily if you would concentrate on assisting others to grow instead of what appears, to me, just the thrill of sharing your thoughts.

I think it is really easy to resolve if you will just remember these two verses when you write:

Matthew 6:33
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Matthew 12:36
But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.

Notice that if the recipient cannot understand what you are saying, you may as well not have even said it. I know it is hard to take criticism Ray, but please do remember this when you are speaking on God's behalf. Quality post's are far more effective than quantity of posts. Even if your post count dropped by 30% because you were being more diligent, if even one post managed to have an effect due to the increased diligence then you will have generated the most valuable treasure in heaven. This is the difference I meant to say about using straw and gold as your building materials and I've seen you use gold in the past. I don't know what has changed, it might be something you need to take to The Lord in prayer because I have seen a change in your works of late.

Let me know if this is not a clear answer to your question and I will say it another way.

Cheers, Anthony.

 

[elman]

What does the Bible say about that?

Zepheniah 1:12 And it shall come to pass at that time, [that] I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil."

I would not want to be found dead, thinking in my heart that the Lord would not do evil. So you should take this as an affirmative answer to your question, but from the Almighty not me. I'm just pointing out things we know, that your theology fails to account for. G-d uses these things to correct our understanding, but it inevitably points to His extreme supremacy over us, and our inability to comprehend.

My inability to understand God does not mean I have to accept God is evil or does evil. I believe in a loving Creator that can be trusted to be good all the time everytime. God is deserving of my love. If God were evil He would be a powerful force to respect, but not one to love.

 

[HisHomeMaker]

Originally Posted by HisHomeMaker, "WE allow Satan into our lives. We have free will given to us by God."

... if you want to stick to this idea, you should be able to show that Job did something to "allow satan into his life," prior to chapter 1. And if you can't, you should be willing to accept that sometimes there's more to it.

I don't mean "we" as individuals, I mean "we" as mankind. Sometimes the individuals suffers for the choices of others.

it was God who murdered Adam and Eve, as a reaction to their disobedience. Unless God does not have free will (and a good argument can be made that He does not), this would leave God and not the serpent as responsible for their deaths. This is similar to how the pastor that burned a Koran is not directly responsible for the actions of the rioters because the people have free will. "You made me do it" is not fitting for God.

God is not human and therefore, to us, He will always be uncertain in his behaviour. He is only certain in His character. His character was the first thing attacked in Genesis. We cannot trust God if we paint his face with the image of a human; humans are imperfect. Look instead to the relationship between God and Jesus to understand the Father.

I don't think it is because God made the baby blind. I also do not think it was done by Satan. Some are born blind because of disease. Tragedity is bad, but not the same as evil. Evil can cause tragedity, but all tragedity is not caused by evil and certainly not by the evil of men.

God wants to heal us. He wants a relationship with each of us. He doesn't want robots and so he gave us the freedom of choice. Mark Twain said the mistake God made was in not forbidding Adam to eat the serpent. Had God forbidden the serpent, Adam would certainly have eaten him. God doesn't hurt people. He doesn't like it when we hurt. He doesn't want hurt to happen, but He has such respect for His Creation that He will give us choice and let bad things happen.

Jesus is the second Adam. All of humanity rolls up into Him. He was tempted and pained as we are, yet -- unlike Adam -- remained sinless.

And if you don't have a mind of your own, you'll believe anything you're told. No wonder followers of Christ are called sheep.

The followers of Christ are called sheep because He is our shepherd. He will leave the 99 to find the one lost soul. Most most roads we follow don't lead anywhere, but He'll go down any road to find us. The word "sheep" refers to our relationship with God.

So you are saying that God has experience with doing evil?

When fear shows up ask God, "What is it about the way You love me that I don't understand right now?" Do you have a relationship with God such that He can put you in the middle of something that He wants to destroy and you won't take it personally? We must become children, live inside the day and trust Him. He never does anything for just one reason.

Sometimes our hurts are not resolved. God loves us all. He loves the people we are in reconciliation processes with. We are all unique, but the depth of His love is the same for each of us. That is His character. He is on a purposeful path to heal them, too. God doesn't heal us to use us. We are not a means to an end. We are the end. We are the one he left 99 to find. God is not human and so He is not a user or abuser. He loves us not for what we do but because we are His.

 

[elman]

Am I the only one who sees the blatantly obvious metaphors here? The God of the Bible didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. The Tree of Knowledge. Why didn't he want them to gain knowledge? Because he wanted them to remain ignorant. And if you're ignorant, you're easy to control. And if you're easy to control, you don't have a mind of your own. And if you don't have a mind of your own, you'll believe anything you're told.

No wonder followers of Christ are called sheep.

The Christian God is loving. You don't see a God like that.

 

[elman]

Yet it was clearly not eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil that led to their deaths; and both God and the serpent equally deceived Adam and Eve by telling a half-truth. God deceived Adam and Eve by telling them that they would die if they ate from the tree, as if the act itself would kill them but without telling them that it would be God's reaction to their act that would kill them. The serpent also told a half-truth; they would indeed not die from eating the fruit but God's reaction to that act would be fatal and so they would die as a consequence.

As for your claim that this is an example of the serpent being a murderer, that is clearly false -- it was God who murdered Adam and Eve, as a reaction to their disobedience. Unless God does not have free will (and a good argument can be made that He does not), this would leave God and not the serpent as responsible for their deaths. This is similar to how the pastor that burned a Koran is not directly responsible for the actions of the rioters because the people have free will. "You made me do it" is not fitting for God.

You are creating an evil God from your imagination, not what is written there. Adam did die the same day spiritually. God did not lie. No, a good argument cannot be made that God does not have free will. God is not responsible for our sins and neither is Satan or the devil. We are responsible for our sins.

 

[razeontherock]

Regarding post #87, you don't make sense.

There's a phrase for this: "separated by a common language." The same word can have different meanings, and not all of them may be native to either of us. I can't find a single word of that post to alter to make it any clearer, and the content is directly relevant to the thread. If there's anything you'd like me to clarify, just specify. Thanks