Gap Theory

gluadys · Mar 19, 2006

oldwiseguy said:
You have to build the history of past events using any resource that is helpful, much like paleontologists build entire organisms using a tiny fragment of bone.

The difference is that the paleontologists are using the principles of anatomy and ecology to create their reconstructions. So I know the source of the reconstruction.

So far you are not being very forthcoming about what the sources of gap theology are. How can I make an evaluation if I cannot examine the sources?

360 revolutions around the sun makes it perfect.

What is the basis for this assertion? What criterion makes it perfect?

No more leap years.

What's wrong with leap years? What makes them an indicator of imperfection.

All months have 30 days.

Why is that desirable, much less an indication of perfection? (You do know that it was the pride of the Roman emperors that made February such a short month, right? Nothing to do with nature.)

Have I mentioned that I think the moon is also out of its proper orbit?

Why am I not surprised? And do you have any hard evidence this is so?

There is order and symmetry in mathematics. This is reflected throughout the creation.

But natural symmetry is more statistical. The spiral of the Fibonacci series is found again and again in nature, but in each instance the actual measurements will be a little off. It is when the measurements are averaged across a great many observations that a match to the mathematical series is approached.

Also symmetry does not require round numbers. Especially round numbers that fit our decimal numerical system. Nature is replete with numerical constants which defy any reasoning as to why they should be this number rather than that.

For example: the gravitational constant is 10^-38. The difference in mass between a proton and a neutron is about 2 parts in a thousand. The mass of an electon is about 1800 times lighter than that of a proton. The Planck mass as compared to the mass of a proton is 10^19, while the cosmological constant compared to the mass of a proton is 10^-40. The electromagnetic force between two protons or electrons works out to 1/137. (All numerals taken from The Life of the Cosmos, by Lee Smolin, Oxford University Press, 1997 pp. 36-42)

Why are any of these numbers what they are? How do any of them relate to any alleged standard of perfection?

My theory is based upon God creating a perfect earth for a perfect Lucifer. When Lucifer sinned he became imperfect and was cast violently back to the earth which was then rendered imperfect as well. It will remain so until it is restored to its original pristine condition.

I am not quibbling with your theory. I am asking what basis you have for developing it other than your own imagination.

I do take it you believe these events actually happened. They are not, to you, imaginary events. But to me they are and will remain imaginary until you can show me a reason to think otherwise.

A perpendicular axis would greatly expand the tropical, and sub tropical climate zone. Much nicer.

I see no reason why this should be so. Nor do I see any reason to consider it nicer. I prefer winter to summer myself, especially as summers become hotter and drier.

Natural maybe, but only normal because that is all we've ever experienced. Just lower the Rocky mountains a bit and watch a wondrous climate change that would bring vast areas of desert into productivity.

You don't know that it would be a wondrous climate change. Yes, the mountains contribute to a desert or semi-desert climate in the eastern shadow, but the fresh water of this area is also provided by glaciers which would disappear if the mountains were lowered. And on the western slopes, the magnificent rain-forests would also disappear as more rainclouds were carried farther west.

Do you have some emotional hostility to diverse climates?

I have no problem with that. I see a broken earth that is still in great turmoil. That being the case I believe that at one time the earth wasn't broken.

The earth is dynamic. I don't see any case for supposing that it was ever broken.

I believe the earth was created for Lucifer. The entire bible is revealing this on just about every page, if one has the eyes to see it. Everything is about Lucifer.

I appreciate your curiosity.

Well, I would appreciate answers more than appreciation. Here is one question I would especially like a response to:

gluadys said:
I know that it is a common Christian belief that Satan was once Lucifer. However, I believe this is misinterpretation of scripture. So I would ask you to substantiate that Lucifer became Satan. In fact, I would ask you to substantiate that Lucifer was an angel.

OldWiseGuy · Mar 19, 2006

shernren said:
But being less esoteric, 360 is hardly a perfect number. Why? Because a year which is 360 days would still cause weekly precession - the tendency for every year to start on a different day, and therefore for every numbered date to have a different day each year. As a kid I kept noticing that every year started a day ahead - if Jan 1 last year was on Tuesday, Jan 1 this year would be on Wednesday - except for on leap years, and I got quite into perpetual calendars which would tell you the day of any year. And your 360-day year would have a similar problem, wouldn't it? You know what the perfect number would be, considering that? 364 days, or a neat 52 weeks. Never need to look at a calendar ever again - January 1 would be a Monday, February 27 would always be a Saturday, etc.

Click to expand...

I found what I was looking for IN THE BIBLE regarding the way weeks fit into the solar scheme of time.

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

The seven day week was a separate instutution of God regarding the calender. While the days, months (seasons above) and years can operate with clocklike precision, the 'week' doesn't have to. It operates like a wheel within the bigger wheel of months and years, but doesn't affect them, nor is it affected by them.

shernren · Mar 19, 2006

Not my numbers.

Correct me, then.

I just don't like 365 1/2 days. Regards angels: I have the same kind of 'proof' that evolutionists use.

You doesn't like it, therefore it's imperfect. Shucks, I wonder who died and left you the position of universal arbiter of perfection? Good that you don't like 365 1/2 days, because the solar year is really more like 365 1/4 days.

Which is what proof?

Not at all. We are in the world that 'is', the present evil one, which is clearly in sad shape on every hand. This is validated by scripture, and by history, and by geology, and by many other measures. God's plan is to restore and renew 'all things'. Why restore something that is just fine as it is?

I'm afraid to ask what your eschatological views are, especially your interpretation of Revelations 21 and 22. I'm already drowning in enough illogicity as it is.

It makes sense. But it is a little off. The only way the great balance found in the numbers could be off is if the earth moved slightly from a previous orbit, that reflected this balance. Lucifer and his angels striking the earth at the speed of light (E=mc2) would account for the awkward tilt, the slight out-of-orbit, and the vast destruction of the earth.

First Lucifer has a physical body, now his physical body can be accelerated to the speed of light. You do realize that is a physical impossibility? And you do realize how little of the earth would be left after that?

I found what I was looking for IN THE BIBLE regarding the way weeks fit into the solar scheme of time.

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

The seven day week was a separate instutution of God regarding the calender. While the days, months (seasons above) and years can operate with clocklike precision, the 'week' doesn't have to. It operates like a wheel within the bigger wheel of months and years, but doesn't affect them, nor is it affected by them.

I don't get that. At all. It's like telling me the Bible preaches atheism because the Psalms say that "there is no God", see what I mean? I'm not saying you are an atheist (nowhere close) but I am saying that your hermeneutics is atrocious. Firstly, I thought we TEs had a monopoly on misinterpreting the Bible - now can you show me that "seasons" in the passage or in the Bible refers to months?

Secondly, this says nothing and for at all about the original intended state of the universe, except that luminaries were intended to be used by humanity as cyclical time-markers. That is all. God could have created earth with 16 moons and orbiting in retrograde around a binary star system (with a hidden black hole thrown in, for all I care) in an extremely elliptical orbit with 28457.34956 days in a year and still said "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, days, and years" - the lights in the firmament would still divide the day from the night, and they would still be for signs and seasons, days, and years, quack-gematriyot* arguments notwithstanding.

*Gematriyot - Hebrew numerology computed by equating each Hebrew letter in a word with its corresponding number (as Gluadys pointed out) and arriving at conclusions via coincidental addition-subtraction equations. A good example of gematriyot (plus an excellent novel, besides) accessible to us goyim can be found in Chaim Potok's The Chosen. At least gematriyot makes some numerical sense. Making 360 a perfect number around which to pivot an entire theory of the origins of the solar system does not.

KerrMetric · Mar 19, 2006

A very scary thread!

OldWiseGuy · Mar 19, 2006

gluadys said:
The difference is that the paleontologists are using the principles of anatomy and ecology to create their reconstructions. So I know the source of the reconstruction.

So far you are not being very forthcoming about what the sources of gap theology are. How can I make an evaluation if I cannot examine the sources?

What is the basis for this assertion? What criterion makes it perfect?

What's wrong with leap years? What makes them an indicator of imperfection.

Why is that desirable, much less an indication of perfection? (You do know that it was the pride of the Roman emperors that made February such a short month, right? Nothing to do with nature.)

Why am I not surprised? And do you have any hard evidence this is so?

But natural symmetry is more statistical. The spiral of the Fibonacci series is found again and again in nature, but in each instance the actual measurements will be a little off. It is when the measurements are averaged across a great many observations that a match to the mathematical series is approached.

Also symmetry does not require round numbers. Especially round numbers that fit our decimal numerical system. Nature is replete with numerical constants which defy any reasoning as to why they should be this number rather than that.

For example: the gravitational constant is 10^-38. The difference in mass between a proton and a neutron is about 2 parts in a thousand. The mass of an electon is about 1800 times lighter than that of a proton. The Planck mass as compared to the mass of a proton is 10^19, while the cosmological constant compared to the mass of a proton is 10^-40. The electromagnetic force between two protons or electrons works out to 1/137. (All numerals taken from The Life of the Cosmos, by Lee Smolin, Oxford University Press, 1997 pp. 36-42)

Why are any of these numbers what they are? How do any of them relate to any alleged standard of perfection?

I am not quibbling with your theory. I am asking what basis you have for developing it other than your own imagination.

I do take it you believe these events actually happened. They are not, to you, imaginary events. But to me they are and will remain imaginary until you can show me a reason to think otherwise.

I see no reason why this should be so. Nor do I see any reason to consider it nicer. I prefer winter to summer myself, especially as summers become hotter and drier.

You don't know that it would be a wondrous climate change. Yes, the mountains contribute to a desert or semi-desert climate in the eastern shadow, but the fresh water of this area is also provided by glaciers which would disappear if the mountains were lowered. And on the western slopes, the magnificent rain-forests would also disappear as more rainclouds were carried farther west.

Do you have some emotional hostility to diverse climates?

The earth is dynamic. I don't see any case for supposing that it was ever broken.

Well, I would appreciate answers more than appreciation. Here is one question I would especially like a response to:

Glaudys,

With all due respect, you're not interested in any answers I might present. But thanks for asking.

OldWiseGuy · Mar 19, 2006

shernren said:
Correct me, then.

You doesn't like it, therefore it's imperfect. Shucks, I wonder who died and left you the position of universal arbiter of perfection? Good that you don't like 365 1/2 days, because the solar year is really more like 365 1/4 days.

Which is what proof?

Click to expand...

Sorry, I meant 365 1/4 days. Do you and Kerr feel threatened as arbiters of perfection? I just have a gut feeling about 360 days. Call it a hunch.

I'm afraid to ask what your eschatological views are, especially your interpretation of Revelations 21 and 22. I'm already drowning in enough illogicity as it is.

Click to expand...

Then just deal with the above subject.

First Lucifer has a physical body, now his physical body can be accelerated to the speed of light. You do realize that is a physical impossibility? And you do realize how little of the earth would be left after that?

Click to expand...

With God all things are possible.

Luke 10:18 And he (Jesus) said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

He may have fallen as pure energy; we don't know.

I don't get that. At all. It's like telling me the Bible preaches atheism because the Psalms say that "there is no God", see what I mean? I'm not saying you are an atheist (nowhere close) but I am saying that your hermeneutics is atrocious. Firstly, I thought we TEs had a monopoly on misinterpreting the Bible - now can you show me that "seasons" in the passage or in the Bible refers to months?

Click to expand...

Do a study on seasons. You'll see a connection to months i.e. the month of Abib.

Secondly, this says nothing and for at all about the original intended state of the universe, except that luminaries were intended to be used by humanity as cyclical time-markers. That is all. God could have created earth with 16 moons and orbiting in retrograde around a binary star system (with a hidden black hole thrown in, for all I care) in an extremely elliptical orbit with 28457.34956 days in a year and still said "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, days, and years" - the lights in the firmament would still divide the day from the night, and they would still be for signs and seasons, days, and years, quack-gematriyot* arguments notwithstanding.

*Gematriyot - Hebrew numerology computed by equating each Hebrew letter in a word with its corresponding number (as Gluadys pointed out) and arriving at conclusions via coincidental addition-subtraction equations. A good example of gematriyot (plus an excellent novel, besides) accessible to us goyim can be found in Chaim Potok's The Chosen. At least gematriyot makes some numerical sense. Making 360 a perfect number around which to pivot an entire theory of the origins of the solar system does not.[/quote

Click to expand...

Huh?

OldWiseGuy · Mar 19, 2006

KerrMetric said:
A very scary thread!

Your tellin' me. I get the willies just thinking about it. Sheesh!

shernren · Mar 20, 2006

Sorry, I meant 365 1/4 days. Do you and Kerr feel threatened as arbiters of perfection? I just have a gut feeling about 360 days. Call it a hunch.

And finally he reveals where he pulled this arbitrary number out of ... a hunch. So much for a scriptural basis.

With God all things are possible.

Luke 10:18 And he (Jesus) said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

I already described the damage. Do you want to see the crater?

A physical mass at lightspeed would have infinite kinetic energy and thus would pulverize the earth into pure energy. And you haven't shown that angels have physical bodies and were intended to inhabit physical space.

Do a study on seasons. You'll see a connection to months i.e. the month of Abib.

I'm not sure what you were studying. My e-sword tells me that the word translated as seasons there, H4150, is translated at least 100 times elsewhere (if not more) as "congregation", especially in the context of congregating the Israelites to celebrate their yearly feasts, and also as "feasts". The relationship between "seasons", "feasts", and "congregation" is clear enough; months fits in nowhere. And here are two verses showing that seasons/feasts and months are different things altogether:

"We also take on ourselves the obligation to give yearly a third part of a shekel for the service of the house of our God: for the showbread, the regular grain offering, the regular burnt offering, the Sabbaths, the new moons, the appointed feasts, the holy things, and the sin offerings to make atonement for Israel, and for all the work of the house of our God.
(Nehemiah 10:32-33 ESV)

You observe days and months and seasons and years!
(Galatians 4:10 ESV)

In both Old and New Testaments the "season" is mentioned as a separate entity of time from the month.

LoG · Mar 20, 2006

shernren said:
Sorry, I meant 365 1/4 days. Do you and Kerr feel threatened as arbiters of perfection? I just have a gut feeling about 360 days. Call it a hunch.

Click to expand...

shernren said:

And finally he reveals where he pulled this arbitrary number out of ... a hunch. So much for a scriptural basis.

Click to expand...

A 360 day year is the natural order as it was created and substantiated by a number of sources including the scriptures. It will be again in the not too distant future.

jetzeppelin · Mar 20, 2006

Mallon said:
I notice oldwiseguy has been tooting his horn lately with regards to his belief in what he sees as the infallible Gap Theory. I only have a basic familiarity with what the the theory has to say, and I'm interested in exploring it a little here. Maybe if oldwiseguy is up to it, he can defend it in this thread.

Myself, I see Gap Theory as a bit of a cop-out. It seems to have arisen out of the necessity to account for the old age of the earth, as geology has found it. And yet, GT subscribers continue to hold to a literal Creation account in Genesis, rejecting the theory of evolution out of hand. This sort of picking-and-chosing of only those scientific principles that don't contradict the Bible seems a might bit dishonest to me. What do others think?

My own observation:

THe Gap Theory fails to explain how plants developed and lived for thousands/millions of years before God created the Sun and the Stars.

jetzeppelin · Mar 20, 2006

Mallon said:
I notice oldwiseguy has been tooting his horn lately with regards to his belief in what he sees as the infallible Gap Theory. I only have a basic familiarity with what the the theory has to say, and I'm interested in exploring it a little here. Maybe if oldwiseguy is up to it, he can defend it in this thread.

Myself, I see Gap Theory as a bit of a cop-out. It seems to have arisen out of the necessity to account for the old age of the earth, as geology has found it. And yet, GT subscribers continue to hold to a literal Creation account in Genesis, rejecting the theory of evolution out of hand. This sort of picking-and-chosing of only those scientific principles that don't contradict the Bible seems a might bit dishonest to me. What do others think?

My own observation:

THe Gap Theory fails to explain how plants developed and lived for thousands/millions of years before God created the Sun and the Stars.

KerrMetric · Mar 20, 2006

Lion of God said:
A 360 day year is the natural order as it was created and substantiated by a number of sources including the scriptures. It will be again in the not too distant future.

Define a day?

OldWiseGuy · Mar 20, 2006

shernren said:
And finally he reveals where he pulled this arbitrary number out of ... a hunch. So much for a scriptural basis.

Click to expand...

When God restores the earth it will be perfect. 360 revs around the sun per year; moon in proper orbit to illuminate the earth every evening. No more months or weeks as we know them now as their purpose will have been fulfilled. Perfect attitude to the sun for tropical daytime weather every day. It will be like Christ said, "Paradise". Don't tell me you don't want a part of that.

A physical mass at lightspeed would have infinite kinetic energy and thus would pulverize the earth into pure energy. And you haven't shown that angels have physical bodies and were intended to inhabit physical space.

Click to expand...

First, in the bible record the angels always appeared on earth in physical bodies. And why would God create a paradise for them and not give them the physical means, bodies, to enjoy it?

Do the math in reverse. Calculate what force/impact would be needed to damage the earth as I have described (and the earth itself attests to), also determining where it would strike. Then using E=mc2 determine the mass needed, and viola, you have Satans body weight, if any. (Assuming that he alone and not the other angels, caused the damage, of course.)

If he struck as pure electrical energy that too could be calculated.

I'm not sure what you were studying. My e-sword tells me that the word translated as seasons there, H4150, is translated at least 100 times elsewhere (if not more) as "congregation", especially in the context of congregating the Israelites to celebrate their yearly feasts, and also as "feasts". The relationship between "seasons", "feasts", and "congregation" is clear enough; months fits in nowhere. And here are two verses showing that seasons/feasts and months are different things altogether:

"We also take on ourselves the obligation to give yearly a third part of a shekel for the service of the house of our God: for the showbread, the regular grain offering, the regular burnt offering, the Sabbaths, the new moons, the appointed feasts, the holy things, and the sin offerings to make atonement for Israel, and for all the work of the house of our God.
(Nehemiah 10:32-33 ESV)

You observe days and months and seasons and years!
(Galatians 4:10 ESV)

In both Old and New Testaments the "season" is mentioned as a separate entity of time from the month.

Click to expand...

There were no feasts in the beginning, yet. The moons are used to count and mark these events, thus the connection. The placement of the word 'season' within the solar calender framework of 'days' and 'years' can be inferred to refer to these later occasions.

KerrMetric · Mar 20, 2006

oldwiseguy said:
When God restores the earth it will be perfect. 360 revs around the sun per year; moon in proper orbit to illuminate the earth every evening.

Have you any idea what you are talking about here?

So the the Earth orbits the Sun 360 times in a year? I take it you meant once in 360 days. I hope.

Will you tell me how the Moon could illuminate the Earth every evening? How can that happen?

OldWiseGuy · Mar 20, 2006

jetzeppelin said:
My own observation:

THe Gap Theory fails to explain how plants developed and lived for thousands/millions of years before God created the Sun and the Stars.

GenOne has God removing the darkness thus revealing the other astral bodies including the sun and moon, that were there but not visible from the point of view of earth.

OldWiseGuy · Mar 20, 2006

KerrMetric said:
oldwiseguy said:

Have you any idea what you are talking about here?

So the the Earth orbits the Sun 360 times in a year? I take it you meant once in 360 days. I hope.

Will you tell me how the Moon could illuminate the Earth every evening? How can that happen?

Click to expand...

Sorry I wasn't clear. Yes I meant the earth will revolve 360 times per year in its orbit once around the sun.

The moon doesn't have to circle the earth the way it does now. It can be fixed in an orbit that will illuminate the dark of the earth each evening. That would provide beautiful night skies every night. The present cycles of the moon will be unnecessary then. God can place it in a more useful orbit.

KerrMetric · Mar 20, 2006

oldwiseguy said:
The moon doesn't have to circle the earth the way it does now. It can be fixed in an orbit that will illuminate the dark of the earth each evening. That would provide beautiful night skies every night.

But for this to be the case it cannot be in an orbit at all.

Or you have half of the Earth permanently without a Moon in the sky since for it to remain above say N. America in the night permanently then it has to orbit the Earth once a day in lock step with the rotation of N. America thus India never sees the Moon.

random_guy · Mar 20, 2006

oldwiseguy said:
Sorry I wasn't clear. Yes I meant the earth will revolve 360 times per year in its orbit once around the sun.

The moon doesn't have to circle the earth the way it does now. It can be fixed in an orbit that will illuminate the dark of the earth each evening. That would provide beautiful night skies every night. The present cycles of the moon will be unnecessary then. God can place it in a more useful orbit.

Please show me the physics of this situation. You're implying that it would be more perfect if the F != ma since the only way that this could happen is if the force of gravity of the Sun on the Moon overrides the force of gravity of the Earth on the Moon, in such a way the force no longer drops off as the inverse square of the distance.

It's like have every single celestial body having a different equation of motion governing it.

Willtor · Mar 20, 2006

oldwiseguy, your views of perfection seem arbitrary to a lot of us. That's why we are disputing what you are saying. When you ask why we don't want to be a part of "perfection," your question doesn't make a lot of sense to us. Consider the square root of 2. It's an irrational number. Some of us find that particular fact beautiful (especially those of us who enjoy math). But it would be like me saying, "in a perfect world, the square root of 2 would be an integer." It just doesn't make sense. Or why isn't the surface of the Earth totally smooth and level? Some of us appreciate the heights and depths (even those of us who are afraid of heights). But these things that I've mentioned are arbitrary "fixes."

Maybe, then, perfection is not what your hunch tells you.

shernren · Mar 20, 2006

A 360 day year is the natural order as it was created and substantiated by a number of sources including the scriptures. It will be again in the not too distant future.

I hope you can do a better job of pulling this number out of the Bible than oldwiseguy did.

When God restores the earth it will be perfect. 360 revs around the sun per year; moon in proper orbit to illuminate the earth every evening. No more months or weeks as we know them now as their purpose will have been fulfilled. Perfect attitude to the sun for tropical daytime weather every day. It will be like Christ said, "Paradise". Don't tell me you don't want a part of that.

Don't avoid the question ... how do you know 360 days is "perfect"? Is that in the Bible or is it just a "hunch"?

This is precisely why I didn't want to know your eschatological views. When will the earth be restored and why are the sun and moon going to be there? I hope you are not talking about Revelations 21 and 22?

First, in the bible record the angels always appeared on earth in physical bodies.

Angels always appeared on earth in physical manifestations. This does not prove that they have physical bodies - merely that they seem to be able to control matter at will (within the boundaries set by God) in order to communicate with humans.

And why would God create a paradise for them and not give them the physical means, bodies, to enjoy it?

When did God create a paradise for angels? Is that a hunch, too, or will you have a verse or two to show for it?

Do the math in reverse. Calculate what force/impact would be needed to damage the earth as I have described (and the earth itself attests to), also determining where it would strike. Then using E=mc2 determine the mass needed, and viola, you have Satans body weight, if any. (Assuming that he alone and not the other angels, caused the damage, of course.)

E=mc2 ??? Good grief. Don't play around with Einstein if you can't handle him, Newton would be good enough. Pop quiz: What is the momentum of a body with mass m and velocity v, and what is the force exerted upon impact when it strikes another object with impact time t assuming its momentum is zero after impact?

If he struck as pure electrical energy that too could be calculated.

I thought you thought he had a physical body.

There were no feasts in the beginning, yet. The moons are used to count and mark these events, thus the connection. The placement of the word 'season' within the solar calender framework of 'days' and 'years' can be inferred to refer to these later occasions.

And you are going to prove that Scripturally, how?

You know, now I really get how YECs feel when they talk to TEs: that sense that the other side simply doesn't know their Bible. Thanks oldwiseguy for teaching me how to identify with their righteous zeal.

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