GAP Creationism VS YEC & OEC Creationism

Wiccan_Child said:

YECism is typified by people who believe that the Earth is 6000 years old, and no older. Gallup polls show that this is not only the majority position of self-professed Creationists, but the majority position in the USA.

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I was YEC at one time. Then as I got older and learned more I began to see that the earth is clearly older then 6,000 years. God seems to go out of His way and even to delight in giving us fossils and a geological record that clearly points toward a Earth that is older then 6,000 years. GAP is the most easy to deal with because you only need enough science to cover the last 14,000 years. Everything seems to match up and work out just fine. To be a OEC I think you would need a education in science to come up with all the evidence you would need to support that theory. 4.5 billion years is a lot of time to cover.

Wiccan_Child said:

If I were Born Again, what would change?

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When you become a child of God then you can claim all the promises of God that we find in our Bible. For me I tried to read the Bible, but I did not understand what I was reading. Also when I read the bible I had what they call mind battles. The enemy of God seemed to make my life more difficult. Then one day I found out that we can pray and God will give us His Holy Spirit to help us to understand the Bible and what we are reading. When we have this understanding then everything makes a lot more sense. So I do not depend on others to help me understand the Bible. I depend on God to give me understanding as I read and study the WORD of God.

AV1611VET said:

Yup -- like trying to debate how we got our moon(s), isn't it?

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No, not at all.

ENJOY!:

BBC News - African fossils put new spin on human origins story

gradyll said:

I don't like playing tag with sites, please discuss your arguments with me.

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But you aren't discussing your argument, you're just cutting and pasting it from someone's website...

gradyll said:

where does the column exist, if it existed it would be 100 miles thick.

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Yes, and both I and my sources addressed that two posts back: the column isn't a physical object per se, it's an abstraction of the many layers we do see. Subduction and erosion remove layers, but they evidently did exist. No part of the world has the complete column, but that doesn't invalidate the concept.

gradyll said:

Besides there are only a few dozen places where the fossils lined up by chance the way the column suggests they should.

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Not really. We have unearth literally millions of fossils, and they all line up as they should. Some areas get a little hairy (such as the oft-touted 'human footprint in a dino footprint'), but we know why that happens - erosion and subsequent deposition, as evidenced by the surrounding strata.

gradyll said:

thats hardly evidence of anything other than wishful thinking. Hundreds of locations are known where the order of the systems identified by geologists does not match the order of the geologic column.

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Such as?

gradyll said:

Dating:

"When asked to document the most reliable radiometric age dates, geologists usually point to isochron and concordia plots which employ multiple isotopic analyses, which they claim will remove the effects of original "contaminants," and display the "age" of a rock in graphical form. However, we find geologists often reporting isochron plots which are discordant with the accepted "ages" of strata systems."

R.V. Gentry, et al., "Radiohalos in coalified wood: new evidence relating to the time of uranium introduction and coalification," Science, Vol. 194, pp. 315-318.

Missing Layers:

"Perhaps the most blatant environmental picture" has been assigned to lower Precambrian strata, formed when the earth supposedly had a reducing atmosphere and an "organic soup" in which life evolved. Yet, geologists have yet to find sedimentary evidence for the reducing atmosphere and the soup."

S.A. Austin, "Did the early earth have a reducing atmosphere?" ICR Impact 109, July 1982, 4 pp.

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To quote you in your next post:

I don't like playing tag with sites, please discuss your arguments with me.

Jazer said:

I was YEC at one time. Then as I got older and learned more I began to see that the earth is clearly older then 6,000 years. God seems to go out of His way and even to delight in giving us fossils and a geological record that clearly points toward a Earth that is older then 6,000 years. GAP is the most easy to deal with because you only need enough science to cover the last 14,000 years. Everything seems to match up and work out just fine. To be a OEC I think you would need a education in science to come up with all the evidence you would need to support that theory. 4.5 billion years is a lot of time to cover.

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Undoubtedly. So, you're restricting your definition of 'Creationism' to just GAP Creationism. Fine. YEC is different to GAP (inasmuch as it posits a much younger Earth, etc), and it's the most popular variety of Creationism, but whatever.

So, now that we've established what Creationism is (funnily enough, it's exactly what I said it was), my question still stands: what contributions has Creationism made?

Wiccan_Child said:

Undoubtedly. So, you're restricting your definition of 'Creationism' to just GAP Creationism. Fine. YEC is different to GAP (inasmuch as it posits a much younger Earth, etc), and it's the most popular variety of Creationism, but whatever.

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Bishop James Ussher clearly was YEC. Yet the vast majority of his book ONLY talks about the last 6,000 years. Out of almost 1000 pages maybe one or two pages deals with anything before Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. The main difference between YEC and GAP is that GAP is a ruin restoration theory. They believe there was something here before. GAP believes a day in Gen CH 1 is 1000 years. In this day and age of Google keyword what better keywords can you have other then nanodiamonds? In Gen 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." That means we need darkness on the earth. There are two ways to get darkess, either a comet that hits the earth and stirs up a lot of dust OR a volcano. In this case we get a comet exactly when we need it. 12,900 years ago. Also diamonds are symbolic for the Children of God. Because like a diamond, a lot of heat and a lot of pressure is required to purify us. We also like a diamond have a lot of carbon in us.
Oxygen (65%)
Carbon (18%)
Hydrogen (10%)
Nitrogen (3%)
Calcium (1.5%)
Phosphorus (1.0%)
Potassium (0.35%)
Sulfur (0.25%)
Sodium (0.15%)
Magnesium (0.05%)

So Adam was in the Garden on the beginning of the eighth day and that was 6,000 years ago. In Genesis Ch one you have people on the 6th day created by God. They were given the whole earth. Adam was just in the Garden of Eden. There is a important difference and mostly it is marriage. On day 6 you have a male and a female. On day 8 Adam and Eve was a man and a women. As any country music fan can tell you there is something special about a women compared to a female. You know they say I am a women looking for a real man, not just a male. They do not want the hunter, they want the producer. They want a man that is able to produce. Not just someone that can hunt or plunder the produce of others.

my question still stands: what contributions has Creationism made?

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They tell me that Creationists were the origional geologists. So their contrabution in addition to OEC was the geological column. I have not had a chance to study OEC though. So I do not know that much about it.

What does GAP give us? A LOT. GAP is interested in the beginning of farming. The transition from food gather to food producer. Also GAP gives you a lot of genealogys. Just about anything that is of interest to the natural sciences in the last 14,000 years.

mzungu said:

ENJOY!:

BBC News - African fossils put new spin on human origins story

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"After death, their bodies were washed into a pool and cemented in time along with the remains of many other animals that got trapped in the same way."

They say there are two types of people in the world. People who have never seen a miracles and do not believe in miracles. Then there are people that think everything is a miracles. Most doctors believe in miracles because they see them all the time. Yet a few will claim they have never seen a miracle.

Now for me dead bodies washed into a pool and cemented in time is a miracle. You can say that whatever "washed" them into the pool was a natural event. But it sure looks like a miracle to me. God wanted to preserve something for us. He wants to show us something.

Like I said before, it looks like God goes out of His way and even delights in showing us that the world is more then 6,000 years old. That someone or something existed before Adam and Eve in the Garden in Eden. Perhaps science does not see the miracle or the hand of God in all of this. But I do.

Nostromo said:

But you aren't discussing your argument, you're just cutting and pasting it from someone's website...

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thats discussing

Wiccan_Child said:

Yes, and both I and my sources addressed that two posts back: the column isn't a physical object per se, it's an abstraction of the many layers we do see. Subduction and erosion remove layers, but they evidently did exist. No part of the world has the complete column, but that doesn't invalidate the concept.

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if the column doesn't exist in order, how do you know with proof that this is the order?

I don't like playing tag with sites, please discuss your arguments with me.

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thats what I would say if I didn't have the answer....

Jazer said:

Bishop James Ussher clearly was YEC. Yet the vast majority of his book ONLY talks about the last 6,000 years. Out of almost 1000 pages maybe one or two pages deals with anything before Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. The main difference between YEC and GAP is that GAP is a ruin restoration theory. They believe there was something here before. GAP believes a day in Gen CH 1 is 1000 years.

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That's rather a big difference, considering the mainstay of YEC is that everything is young.

Jazer said:

In this day and age of Google keyword what better keywords can you have other then nanodiamonds? In Gen 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." That means we need darkness on the earth. There are two ways to get darkess, either a comet that hits the earth and stirs up a lot of dust OR a volcano. In this case we get a comet exactly when we need it. 12,900 years ago.

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Or, option three: God himself have simply created the darkness.

Jazer said:

Also diamonds are symbolic for the Children of God. Because like a diamond, a lot of heat and a lot of pressure is required to purify us. We also like a diamond have a lot of carbon in us.

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What do diamonds have to do with any of this?

Jazer said:

So Adam was in the Garden on the beginning of the eighth day and that was 6,000 years ago. In Genesis Ch one you have people on the 6th day created by God. They were given the whole earth. Adam was just in the Garden of Eden. There is a important difference and mostly it is marriage. On day 6 you have a male and a female. On day 8 Adam and Eve was a man and a women. As any country music fan can tell you there is something special about a women compared to a female. You know they say I am a women looking for a real man, not just a male. They do not want the hunter, they want the producer. They want a man that is able to produce. Not just someone that can hunt or plunder the produce of others.

Click to expand...

Jazer said:

They tell me that Creationists were the origional geologists. So their contrabution in addition to OEC was the geological column.

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As I explained before, I'm asking for the contribution of Creationism, not Creationists. Isaac Newton was a Creationist and he made great contributions, but none of them were because he was a Creationist.

Jazer said:

What does GAP give us? A LOT. GAP is interested in the beginning of farming. The transition from food gather to food producer.

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But GAP doesn't give us anything useful. A contribution isn't plucking any old idea out of a hat, it's making actual steps and giving humanity knowledge. Unless GAP can substantiate its ideas, it hasn't done anything at all.

The origin of agriculture is certainly an interesting topic, and GAP may well have plenty to say on it, but until it can provide experiments to test those claims, it hasn't contributed anything at all.

Jazer said:

Also GAP gives you a lot of genealogys.

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No, the Torah gives you that. Your interpretation of Genesis doesn't affect the genealogies.

Jazer said:

Just about anything that is of interest to the natural sciences in the last 14,000 years.

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Unless it's to do with radioactivity, genetics, medicine... or curing plagues, perfecting socio-economic strife, solving the Middle-Eastern Crisis, deducing the age of the Earth...

gradyll said:

if the column doesn't exist in order, how do you know with proof that this is the order?

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Because I can look at them. The very particular pattern of strata are like fingerprints. Unconformities exist:



And we know why they occur. But the key point is that we can clearly understand how the strata originally looked, not only because we understand how the unconformity arose, but also because we can look at the other examples of that strata from across the globe.

gradyll said:

thats what I would say if I didn't have the answer....

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...gradyll, you do realise that line was something you said, right? I took your phrase and turned it back on you?

You chastised USincognito for linking you to a website, when you yourself did exactly the same. If you won't bother to read up on the information others present (often after you requested it), then why should we bother to wade through your quotes as well? I've already dismantled other quotes you've cited, and they all turned out to be plagiarised wholesale from other Creationists websites, and they all were examples of how one man's words were twisted to say something completely different.

If you won't bother to read what someone cites, why should we bother to read what you cite? Especially when even you don't even read the things you cite...

How can we have a civilised discussion if you play so dishonestly?

Wiccan_Child said:

Because I can look at them. The very particular pattern of strata are like fingerprints. Unconformities exist:



And we know why they occur. But the key point is that we can clearly understand how the strata originally looked, not only because we understand how the unconformity arose, but also because we can look at the other examples of that strata from across the globe.


...gradyll, you do realise that line was something you said, right? I took your phrase and turned it back on you?

You chastised USincognito for linking you to a website, when you yourself did exactly the same. If you won't bother to read up on the information others present (often after you requested it), then why should we bother to wade through your quotes as well? I've already dismantled other quotes you've cited, and they all turned out to be plagiarised wholesale from other Creationists websites, and they all were examples of how one man's words were twisted to say something completely different.

If you won't bother to read what someone cites, why should we bother to read what you cite? Especially when even you don't even read the things you cite...

How can we have a civilised discussion if you play so dishonestly?

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If this resorts to strawmen and name calling, then this conversation is over. There is nothing in the rules stating you can't cut and paste.

if the layers are different ages why are there no erosion marks between the layers? Don't you think in 10 million years it would rain once in a while? The layers are from hydrologic sorting from after the flood.

gradyll said:

if the layers are different ages why are there no erosion marks between the layers? Don't you think in 10 million years it would rain once in a while? The layers are from hydrologic sorting from after the flood.

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If it rains it adds more sediment to the growing sediment layers in a lake. You don't need a world wide flood to produce sediments with no erosion between them.

Loudmouth said:

If it rains it adds more sediment to the growing sediment layers in a lake. You don't need a world wide flood to produce sediments with no erosion between them.

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very few if any of the geologic column sites are in the areas where a lake exists.

Nathan Poe said:

Advice about a Career in Forensic Science
Isn't it interesting that people can pursue a career in a branch of science whose very existence disproves your premise?
Funny that.

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I'll cover this again.
-It's not a branch of Science.
-The data produced is disputed by trained Scientific experts 100% of the time it is used.
-The data produced does not include conclusions. It only produces data and facts in need of opinions and interpretation.
Nothing in the suggested class list supports your contention outside of the Anthropology recommendations. The very definition of soft&squishy science.

Wiccan_Child said:

So, now that we've established what Creationism is (funnily enough, it's exactly what I said it was), my question still stands: what contributions has Creationism made?

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It's a world-view that creates Scientists who define what we now call Science.
Pretty important in my book.

gradyll said:

very few if any of the geologic column sites are in the areas where a lake exists.

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There is a limited number of these mythical sites?

SkyWriting said:

There is a limited number of these mythical sites?

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they are pretty mythical, thats true