GAP Creationism VS YEC & OEC Creationism

[Jazer]

Don't you realize, Jazer, that none of us can be tuned in to God like these Internet scientists are, until we first admit that Adam was a mutant, copy-error made in the likeness and image of God?

If anyone wants to be a citizen of Israel, along with their application for Immigration they have to show a DNA test to show that they have those mutations. It could very well be that mutations are a part of the fall. Science is actually working on getting the DNA to repair itself to restore the DNA back to where it was before the fall and before the mutations began. We know that DNA damage to stem cells is central to ageing. So if we are going to live longer during the 1000 year reign of Christ some of those mutations are going to need to be repaired.

 

[Jazer]

It is false.

You are wrong and you are working against God. The faithful of ever generation has worked to make the Bible real for the time they live. Today that is a real challenge with information on the increase as Daniel predicted. Why you want to work against God I do not know. As a Christian you seem to lack understanding of some of the most basic of fundamentals. You may not like fundamentalists but you would be wise to realize there is something worthwhile in fundamentalism.

It does not matter that the people 100 years ago did not get it all right because what they had to go by from Science was not right. Time and time again science makes errors and they try to make it look like Creationism is in error. When in fact you just do not understand it and you do not want to make any effort to try and understand.

Let me explain one thing again. When you THINK you are judging others you are only judging yourself. I am sort of embarrassed for you that your telling us so much about yourself. Most of the people here know this because they have been told so many times so they are careful what they say and the judgements they make.

 

[lucaspa]

You know as well as I do what happened 13,000 years ago. The ice melted and the ocean level raised over 300 feet. If you look at the biodiversity of the South Pacific Islands you will find that the biodiversity is based on the lower ice age water level.

In addition to the ice melting and the ocean level rising you also have the holocene extinction.

1. That is not a complete recreation.
2. The rise in sea level and the Holocene extinction of large animals didn't happen at the same time.
3. The J Haplogroup began 30,000 years ago, which is 20,000 years before the sea level rise.

After the Holocene extinction you have the Neolithic Revolution. The beginning of Farming, Cities and Civilization. All of this began with the J J Haplogroup dna in the Fertile Crescent in the Middle east. Then Farming spread to Europe from there. A lot of study has gone into this.

1. Farming was independently invented in Europe. Farming was also independently invented in India, China, southeast Asia, and the Americas.
2. Events that you say are sequential, and therefore infer that they are causal, aren't. For instance, the J Haplogroup started in the Arabian Penninsula, not the Fertile Crescent. Second, the J Haplogroup is a derivative of the I Haplogroup, which goes back further.

None of those studies conflict with the Bible. Again and again science and the Bible agree.

They all conflict. The only reason you think they do not is because you have the science wrong.

They both talk about Jericho being the first city.

Actually, the Bible says "Enoch" was the first city. Science talks about Jericho being old, but not the oldest city.

In fact if you go to Jericho today the walls are still sitting on the ground after all these years. It is amazing that no one rebuilt the walls or used the stones to build a house or a fence for the animals or something. They are still sitting there as a ruin after all these years.

Have you been to Jericho? Jericho was destroyed for the second time in 586-538 BC. When the city was refounded again in 538 BC, it was at a new site 1 mile distant from the old. The walls you are referring to are the walls of the second destruction, not the first. Where did you get your information? Someone told you a whopper and you should take them to task for false witness.

 

[lucaspa]

Both YEC & OEC are established on Rock Solid Science. Come hell or high water YEC ONLY talks about the last 6,000 years. OEC talks about the last 12 billion years. God tends to do things the same way. He does not change. The way He did things before is the same as the way He does things now. GAP simply says they are both true and because they are talking about two different things there is no conflict between them. Thus properly understood, Creationism is true.

YEC states that everything was created 6,000 years ago. Thus, if YEC is true, then Gap and OEC cannot be true.

OTOH, OEC does not accept a complete second recreation.

So, I love your attempt to say that OEC, YEC, and Gap are all true. However, that claim depends on changing OEC and YEC from what they are. What is more, most YECers insist that Gap is false. Here is just one polemic against it from a YEC site: What is the "Gap Theory?" • ChristianAnswers.Net

BTW, the United Methodist Church rejects creationism and accepts evolution.

 

[Jazer]

1. Farming was independently invented in Europe. Farming was also independently invented in India, China, southeast Asia, and the Americas.

You must be reading different research.

Wike: "The first full-blown manifestation of the entire Neolithic complex is seen in the Middle Eastern Sumerian cities (ca. 3,500 BC), whose emergence also inaugurates the end of the prehistoric Neolithic period."

Remember the Bible talks a lot about the first fruit. It does not matter when you plant the tree. It does not matter how long the tree takes to grow. What matters is when the tree produces fruit. Adam produced fruit 6,000 years ago in the Garden of Eden. It does not matter if it took God 20,000 years or 200,000 years or 2 billion years to create Adam. We go by the "full blown manifestation".

Anyways, you have to look at the people who study BOTH the J Haplogroup AND the Neolithic Revolution. Then you will get the most recent information and studies that they have for the connection between the J Haplogroup and the beginning of Farming and animal husbandry.

Remember the Sunday School story of Jacob and how he evened the score with his father in law. Through DNA he got all the healthy animals and gave all the sick animals to his father in law. Perhaps he learned animal husbandry from Adam. This was thousands of years before Mendel and his peas.

 

[Jazer]

So, I love your attempt to say that OEC, YEC, and Gap are all true.

What is true is what science tells us is true. Otherwise we would have a conflict. YEC covers the last 6,000 years. It does not matter what happened before that because they only talk about the last 6,000 years. I have Usshers book. Out of 1000 pages there is maybe one or two pages that talks about Genesis chapter one. All the other pages talk about the last 6,000 years.

GAP ONLY talks about the last 13,000 years. We do not get into any discussions on apes, monkeys or people.

OEC is the day age theory. I don't even want to try to figure that out. They cover the last 4.5 Billion years. For me it is plenty enough to deal with the last 13,000 years and what Science has to say about it. For me time and time again science proves that the Bible is true. I see no conflict. In fact if it were not for science we would not know nearly as much about the Bible as we do resulting from all of their tireless study and research.

YECers insist that Gap is false.

I do not insist they are wrong. Still no matter how you slice it and dice it they only go back 6,000 years. So it does not matter what happened before that point in time as far as they are concerned.

 

[lucaspa]

If anyone wants to be a citizen of Israel, along with their application for Immigration they have to show a DNA test to show that they have those mutations.

That is not true. Whatever your source for Gap theory is, they told you another whopper. Israel has what is called the "Law of Return". It basically states that Jews can immigrate to Israel and become citizens. "Every Jew has the right to come to this country as an oleh."

So, what is a Jew? Originally it was either 1) a Jewish mother or 2) conversion to Judaism.

In 1970 the law was modified to include a Jewish grandparent.

BUT there has never been, nor is there now, a genetic test involved. In fact, DNA testing is irrelevant when establishing you are Jewish by Israeli law:
http://judaism.about.com/od/orthodoxfaqenkin/f/dnatest.htm
"DNA testing is irrelevant from the perspective of determining whether or not you are Jewish according to Jewish Law (halacha). According to halacha you are Jewish as long as your maternal line is Jewish. In order to qualify for moving to Israel under the Law of Return you must have a rabbi certify that you are indeed Jewish or perform a conversion to finalize your status."

So why are you still giving credence to your source? Why should we give credence to anything you say, considering how often your claims have been shown to be wrong?

Science is actually working on getting the DNA to repair itself to restore the DNA back to where it was before the fall and before the mutations began.

Citations, please? Since there was no "fall", there is no DNA to go back to "before" it. There is no point in hominid history "before the mutations began".

DNA does have repair mechanisms. Mutations result when those repair mechanisms don't work.

We know that DNA damage to stem cells is central to ageing.

Not really. Aging is a complex problem where there are changes in differentiated cells. For instance, part of aging is reaching the "Hayflick limit" on number of cell divisions. This has to do with telomere length.
Stem Cells in Aging

 

[lucaspa]

What is true is what science tells us is true.

Hmmm. Isn't what the Bible tells us is true also true? You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

YEC covers the last 6,000 years. It does not matter what happened before that because they only talk about the last 6,000 years.

Actually, to them it does matter. To them, there are only 6,000 years. From a prominent YEC site -- Answers in Genesis: " From our study of the Bible, we are persuaded that Creation occurred in six normal-length days about 6000 years ago," Creation Compromises - Answers in Genesis See, this is not "talking about" the last 6,000 years. This is a clear statement that there are only 6,000 years. The same applies to Ussher. He provided the actual number counting from the geneologies given in the Bible. But Ussher does state, does he not, that the universe was created 6,000 years ago? He talks about the "last 6,000 years" because those are the only years.

That page at Answers in Genesis has several references to their refutation of Gap theory: Creation Compromises - Answers in Genesis

GAP ONLY talks about the last 13,000 years. We do not get into any discussions on apes, monkeys or people.

You have to. If you are also going to use the Bible, you need to provide an origin for Adam. Was Adam made out of dust? Or was the J Haplogroup male (Adam) a mutation from an earlier human male?

OEC is the day age theory.

There are several OECs. Gap theory is part of OEC. Day-age is another. Their idea is that each "day" in Genesis 1 represents a time period, so that creation actually took 4.5 billion years.

For me it is plenty enough to deal with the last 13,000 years and what Science has to say about it. For me time and time again science proves that the Bible is true. I see no conflict.

That is because
1. You state the science wrong.
2. You ignore all the the Biblical issues where Gap has problems: such as Adam created from dust or simply a mutation in the Y-chromosome of a previous human male.

In fact if it were not for science we would not know nearly as much about the Bible as we do resulting from all of their tireless study and research.

Have you noticed your emphasis on the Bible? You never say "we know more about how God created because of science" or "we know more about God from science". No, it's always about the Bible.

What science has shown is that the Bible is not reliable as history prior to the Exodus and is only partly reliable as history from the Exodus to the Babylonian Conquest. After that, it is pretty good as history.

I do not insist they are wrong. Still no matter how you slice it and dice it they only go back 6,000 years. So it does not matter what happened before that point in time as far as they are concerned.

As far as YECers are concerned, there is no "point in time" before that. And that matters a great deal to YECers. As the sites I have posted show.

So, if you are saying that the earth is older than 6,000 years, then yes, you are insisting YECers are wrong. The only way you get around this is to make a fantasy YEC that is not real.

 

[lucaspa]

You must be reading different research.

Wike: "The first full-blown manifestation of the entire Neolithic complex is seen in the Middle Eastern Sumerian cities (ca. 3,500 BC), whose emergence also inaugurates the end of the prehistoric Neolithic period."

You didn't give a page at Wiki. However, it seems you are using the same research as I am, but cherry-picking. Let's start at the beginning of the article:

"The Neolithic Revolution is the first agricultural revolution—the transition from hunting and gathering to agriculture and settlement. Archaeological data indicate that various forms of domestication of plants and animals arose independently in six separate locales worldwide ca. 10,000–7000 years BP (8,000–3,000 BC), with the earliest known evidence found throughout the tropical and subtropical areas of southwestern and southern Asia, northern and central Africa and Central America.[1]" Neolithic Revolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now, a problem you have is that Jericho is not Sumerian. Sumer was 1,000 miles east of Jericho.

It does not matter if it took God 20,000 years or 200,000 years or 2 billion years to create Adam. We go by the "full blown manifestation".

Interesting "rule". But when you are talking first, you are not going by "full-blown manifestation". You are going by first.

Anyways, you have to look at the people who study BOTH the J Haplogroup AND the Neolithic Revolution. Then you will get the most recent information and studies that they have for the connection between the J Haplogroup and the beginning of Farming and animal husbandry.

Ah, now you are back to "begining". You have forgotten your Special Pleading. When we look at beginning, we see that agriculture and animal husbandry began in several places, some before they began in the Middle East.

As it happens, I did look at both the J Haplogroup and the Neolithic Revolution. The J1 Haplogroup originated 20,000 years before the rise of agriculture in Sumeria. So the Haplogroup is not a cause. The J2 Haplotype is the one associated with Ashkenazai and Sephardic Jews. It arose after the Neolithic Revolution started. What's more, the J Haplogroup is not linked to the rise of agriculture and animal husbandry in the other originating spots. Now, movement of farming to Europe is associated with migration of people with the J haplotype there. However, the Wiki article we are using says:
"In Africa, the spread of farming, and notably the Bantu expansion, is associated with the dispersal of Y-chromosome haplogroup E1b1a from West Africa."

Remember the Sunday School story of Jacob and how he evened the score with his father in law. Through DNA he got all the healthy animals and gave all the sick animals to his father in law. Perhaps he learned animal husbandry from Adam. This was thousands of years before Mendel and his peas.

First, Jacob didn't use DNA. He used outward appearance. People had been doing selective breeding long before Mendel figured out genes. So this has nothing to do with anything.

Who did the African learn animal husbandry from? Since you think Adam was J haplotype, who was E1b1a? Who did the Amerindians learn from? Or the Chinese?

 

[Jazer]

Citations, please?

"The findings have implications for the process of ageing itself. ‘It has been suggested that accumulation of DNA damage, leading to loss of adult stem cells, is a principal mechanism behind ageing,’ says Professor Cornall. ‘Our findings lend weight to that theory.’"http://www.physorg.com/news100535641.html

I am sure that for you there is a difference between damage and a mutation.

 

[Jazer]

Hmmm. Isn't what the Bible tells us is true also true? You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

There is no contradiction. The Bible is true, Science is true.

You have to. If you are also going to use the Bible, you need to provide an origin for Adam. Was Adam made out of dust? Or was the J Haplogroup male (Adam) a mutation from an earlier human male?

EXACTLY You have to. Adam was a J Haplogroup male that mutated from a earlier J Haplogroup human male. If you do not accept that, then you have a contradiction. When you read the Bible it COULD have happened that way. So there is no contradiction. It is not like anyone planned this. IT is just the way the evidence takes us. Yes for a lot of YEC's that could put them on tilt and it can cause them to reject science to some degree. But WHY? There is no contradiction. The Bible is true and in this case Science could be true. Everything seems to be heading in that direction. It could be someday we will have the whole family tree and know exactly where everyone is on that tree.

Day-age is another. Their idea is that each "day" in Genesis 1 represents a time period, so that creation actually took 4.5 billion years.

That would be fine, I am all for it. But for me I have a problem with days being different lengths. If the day can be the same length then they can be as long as you want them to be. Even billions of years.

2. You ignore all the the Biblical issues where Gap has problems: such as Adam created from dust or simply a mutation in the Y-chromosome of a previous human male.

What conflict? Adam came from dust:

Oxygen (65%)
Carbon (18%)
Hydrogen (10%)
Nitrogen (3%)
Calcium (1.5%)
Phosphorus (1.0%)
Potassium (0.35%)
Sulfur (0.25%)
Sodium (0.15%)
Magnesium (0.05%)
Copper, Zinc, Selenium, Molybdenum, Fluorine, Chlorine, Iodine, Manganese, Cobalt, Iron (0.70%)
Lithium, Strontium, Aluminum, Silicon, Lead, Vanadium, Arsenic, Bromine (trace amounts)

Have you noticed your emphasis on the Bible? You never say "we know more about how God created because of science" or "we know more about God from science". No, it's always about the Bible.

I am sure that you know more about how God created because of science.

What science has shown is that the Bible is not reliable as history prior to the Exodus and is only partly reliable as history from the Exodus to the Babylonian Conquest. After that, it is pretty good as history.

Science has failed to show that. They are to busy going after YEC's with their two year degrees. Like shooting fish in a barrel. If you want to try to discredit the Bible first you have to know what the Bible says.

My dad all my life told me that the Bible is true. But there are lots of different interpretations. He did not know who to listen to. Today I would say allow Science to interpret the Bible for you. Use Empirical evidence.

As far as YECers are concerned, there is no "point in time" before that. And that matters a great deal to YECers. As the sites I have posted show.

So, if you are saying that the earth is older than 6,000 years, then yes, you are insisting YECers are wrong. The only way you get around this is to make a fantasy YEC that is not real.

You do not know that they are wrong. You were not here that week so you do not know what happened that week. Something tells me that your not impressed with what they tell you happened that week. As far as 4.5 billion or 13 billion years in a week. From God's perspective 13 billion years IS A WEEK. Maybe Gen 1 is from God's perspective. For us from our perspective the week would have been 13 billion years.

God is light and there is no time at the speed of light. Time is decay and there is no decay with God. 1John1 " God is Light and in Him there is no darkness at." 1cor15:50b "What decays cannot inherit what doesn't decay."

 

[Jazer]

What's more, the J Haplogroup is not linked to the rise of agriculture and animal husbandry in the other originating spots.

Now who has: "told you another whopper"?

"Early origins
The origin of Y-DNA Haplogroup J maps to the Middle East around the ‘Fertile Crescent’, an area also known as the ‘Cradle of Civilization’ since this area saw the birth of many technological advancements that helped humans move from nomadic hunter-gatherers to an agriculture-based society living in one place. The sprouting of some the first cities and empires in human history were contingent on these developments and featured the proliferation of Haplogroup J."

"The precise location for the origin of Haplogroup J is not known, but its prominence in the Near East/West Asia and the Middle East/Central Asia indicates that it likely arose in one of these regions. It is closely associated with the Fertile Crescent; an area spanning the Nile and Tigris/Euphrates River systems, with the Levant (present day Lebanon) in between. This region has encompassed many early cultures and empires from the Stone Age (Neolithic) to the Iron Age and has also been dubbed the ‘Cradle of Civilization’. Societies, dynasties and empires in this broad region include the Sumerian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Phoenician and Persian. Haplogroup J is also particularly abundant in Anatolia (present day Turkey) and the Y-chromosome diversity observed here suggests that this area is a possible source of this clade. Owing to these strategic locations, Y-DNA Haplogroup J is common on three continents: Asia, Europe and Africa." Genebase :: Genebase Tutorials

Gen 2:10 10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12(The gold of that land is good; aromatic resinf and onyx are also there.) 13The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush.g 14The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

How much more PLAIN do we need this to be??? A river flows OUT of EDEN: The Tigris & the Euphrates. Eden was clearly at the head of the Tigris & Euphrates river. This is the same area Science calls the Cradle of Civilization.

 

[Nostromo]

What conflict? Adam came from dust:

Oxygen (65%)<snip>

You say that as if you'd expect some other ratio of elements if the creation story were not true.

 

[Jazer]

You say that as if you'd expect some other ratio of elements if the creation story were not true.

I don't know that I expect anything. It is what it is, we go where the evidence takes us.

 

[dad]

Approximately 2,000 years and counting.

I agree. That seems more than three days then.

 

[Jazer]

Approximately 2,000 years and counting.

1982 years sense Jesus was resurrected from the dead. That would be passover in the year 29. Then the first Pentacost when the Christian Church began was 50 days later. We still celebrate Pentacost once every year.

 

[Nostromo]

I don't know that I expect anything. It is what it is, we go where the evidence takes us.

What evidence is that?

 

[TheReasoner]

I don't know that I expect anything. It is what it is, we go where the evidence takes us.

So you have discarded creationism?
Good for you!

God is bigger than that. So much bigger.

 

[Jazer]

What evidence is that?

We are talking about population genetics. The Y-DNA and the MtDNA. That is what science uses for a paternity test to find out who the daddy is. Israel makes a lot of claims about Abraham being their father. The DNA evidence tends to substantiate their claim. Problem is the Palestinians claim Abraham is their father also. Imagine that. Only thing is the DNA backs up their claim. The evidence shows that they share a common ancestor, and they are brothers.

There is a story about two little boys in Israel who were playing together. They got along fine and had a lot of fun. But then the parents found out. It turns out one was a Jew and the other was a Palestinian. The parents told them they were not to play together anymore. By the time they grew up they were enemys.

 

[Nostromo]

We are talking about population genetics.

Mmm, no, we were talking about the proportion of elements in the human body.