tonychanyt
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So what is the difference between justification and sanctification? None?
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So what is the difference between justification and sanctification? None?No. iIf they took Paul's advice they were both justified and sanctified.
Did that help?
Justification: "to cause someone to be in a proper or right relation with someone else—‘to put right with, to cause to be in a right relationship with.So what is the difference between justification and sanctification? None?
I don't know exactly what you are talking about. What specifically did I say that indicated that I misunderstood you? Also, what specifically does Paul disagree with me about?One. You misread my comment on before we come to Christ and are justified. I was speaking specifically to pre conversion.
As the last comments you make on justification Paul disagrees with you in Galatians 5: 22, 23.
No law includes, by default, the 10 commandments.
For a different opinion, see What is justification?Justification: "to cause someone to be in a proper or right relation with someone else—‘to put right with, to cause to be in a right relationship with.
I don't know exactly what you are talking about. What specifically did I say that indicated that I misunderstood you? Also, what specifically does Paul disagree with me about?
No, that is not true. There are many people with different backgrounds and religious affiliations who think obedience to the law is the path to rightness with God. Scripture makes it clear that rightness with God comes through trust in Jesus Christ and not through obedience to the law. This is precisely the justification of which Galatians speaks.How does that happen as you were already refusing to follow God's law before you came to know Jesus? All of us were.
Sorry Tony but your link doesn't say anything different than what B Griffen said justification it is.For a different opinion, see What is justification?
OK. I understand your position now. We completely disagree though because of what Paul says in Galatians 5:22, 23. Paul did not trust his own works when he wrote that and I do not trust my own works for believing him.I understood you to be talking about pre-conversion. So was I. Lots of people pre-conversion think right standing with God is through obeying His laws. Conversion happens when they give up that notion and turn to Christ Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins.
Does that put us into agreement, or does it make things worse?
Sorry, I thought you were asking a question instead of making a statement.For a different opinion, see What is justification?
Thank you for that. I’ll think through your response and reply later.OK. I understand your position now. We completely disagree though because of what Paul says in Galatians 5:22, 23. Paul did not trust his own works when he wrote that and I do not trust my own works for believing him.
You're going to confuse Tony with all that. He said earlier in the thread that he is slow.Sorry, I thought you were asking a question instead of making a statement.
Since this is a thread on justification, let me ask you a question. If God declares someone to be right with Him, is it so, or is it a wink and a nod to the underlying truth to the fact that he’s not? Answer: if God declares that a person is right with Him, that settles it.
I think he can handle it.You're going to confuse Tony with all that. He said earlier in the thread that he is slow.
There can be many reasons for obeying God's law, some of which are correct while others are incorrect, so the fact that we do not earn our justification as a wage as the result of our obedience to God's law does not mean that our justification does not require us to obey God's law for correct purposes. While Paul denies that we can earn our justification as a wage (Romans 4:1-5), he also said that only doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), so there must be reasons that our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn our salvation as a wage, such as faith inso far as Romans 3:31 says that being justified by faith does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it.Justification is not a process, but is the end-product of placing one's trust in Christ. The passage from which you quote makes this point clear:
14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."
Knowing that man is not justified by obedience to the law buy by faith in Christ, Paul (and his saved companions) placed his trust in Christ so that he would obtain the justifcation that only comes through faith in Christ. He/they turned away from the law knowing that obedience to the law does not yield justification. Justification is only through faith in Christ.
Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage as the result of obeying it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. Trusting in our own ability does not involve relying on anyone else, so relying on what God has instructed is relying on God, not on our own ability.Galatians is focused as a laser on the topic that is addressed throughout Scripture, which is trusting Jesus to save us from missing the mark that the law paints instead of trusting in your own ability to satisfy God through obedience to the law. When a person turns to Jesus for forgiveness, he gives up any pretense that he is right with God through obedience to the law.
In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not children of God.I don't know how that could possibly happen. Justification through faith in Christ Jesus causes you to become a child of God. See Galatians 3:26 (NKJV): "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."
In context, where Paul is opposing works to faith in justification in his correction of Peter,Galatians' justified, being made righteous or deemed righteous in chapter 2 verse 17 is being spoken in the subjunctive mood. The mood of possibilities not the indicative, as a done deal, a fact. This is shown by the use of the word "might" in verse 16, in the clause "might be justified (made righteous)" as in not yet but can happen in the KJV. Couple that with verse 17 where it says, 'while we seek to be justified'. This is being spoken in the Infinitive mood. This is brought out by the use of the words "to be" as in not yet but to be. This shows us here in Galatians that justified, being made righteous or deemed righteous in Galatians is not a done deal it is a process.
This justification (being made righteous) is not of ourselves but out of the faith of Christ and can only be done through us believing INTO Christ as verse 2:16 states. For we who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ as verse 3:27 states and Romans 6. And we are not children of God or Justified by OUR faith but by the faith of Christ which we partake of in Christ having put Him on. Because we have His spirit as verse 3:2 states. And this is stated in relation to verse 2:20 where it says we are dead but live. Yet NOT US but Christ Jesus. And the LIFE WE now LIVE is BY THE FAITH OF the Son of God who gave himself. If we are living by the faith of Christ we are living by His spirit. For being In Him and He in us we are seeking to be justified, made righteous.
Living through Christ and His faith; the way He believed we are made righteous, But if we are found sinners while we are seeking to be made righteous, justified is Christ the minister of sin since we now have Him in us and we in Him? God forbid! How shall we who are dead to sin live any longer therein. If I build, sin again after it has been destroyed,Vs. 2:17 the old man being crucified with Him, that the body of sin be destroyed I make myself a transgressor.
We now live in the flesh through the Faith OF the Son of God, 2:20 For it is written, the Just shall live by His Faith not through the flesh and it's works. So let not the things of the flesh be once named among you. Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. So we can not do the things that we would. Amen
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by (OUT) the works of the law, but by (THROUGH) the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in (INTO) Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by (OUT OF) the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by (THROUGH) the faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
We express what we believe by the way that we live and our faith in Christ refers to living like or putting on Christ, which refers to the same manner of living as the faith of Christ.Galatians' justified, being made righteous or deemed righteous in chapter 2 verse 17 is being spoken in the subjunctive mood. The mood of possibilities not the indicative, as a done deal, a fact. This is shown by the use of the word "might" in verse 16, in the clause "might be justified (made righteous)" as in not yet but can happen in the KJV. Couple that with verse 17 where it says, 'while we seek to be justified'. This is being spoken in the Infinitive mood. This is brought out by the use of the words "to be" as in not yet but to be. This shows us here in Galatians that justified, being made righteous or deemed righteous in Galatians is not a done deal it is a process. This justification (being made righteous) is not of ourselves but out of the faith of Christ and can only be done through us believing INTO Christ as verse 2:16 states. For we who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ as verse 3:27 states and Romans 6. And we are not children of God or Justified by OUR faith but by the faith of Christ which we partake of in Christ having put Him on. Because we have His spirit as verse 3:2 states. And this is stated in relation to verse 2:20 where it says we are dead but live. Yet NOT US but Christ Jesus. And the LIFE WE now LIVE is BY THE FAITH OF the Son of God who gave himself. If we are living by the faith of Christ we are living by His spirit. For being In Him and He in us we are seeking to be justified, made righteous.
Every aspect of being children of God, through faith, in/of Christ, children of Abraham, and heirs to the promise refers to living in obedience to God's law. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not children of God. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked. In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works that he did. In Genesis 18:19, Genesis 25:4-5, and Deuteronomy 30:16, the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household how to do that, and because they did that.Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by (THROUGH) the faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Nope, this is part of Paul's argument that righteousness through the law only is achievable if you obey it completely, as explained in more detail here:he also said that only doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13)
Obeying the law is not the same as following the Lord.God's law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so Jesus is the embodiment of God's word and it is contradictory to think that we should have faith in the one who is the embodiment of God's word, but not have faith in God's word. God is trustworthy, therefore what He has instructed is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by trusting in what He has instructed, while it is contradictory to think that we should trust God, but should not trust what He has instructed.
1 John 3:9 (NKJV) is a difficult verse: "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." It is not explained away by inserting the word, "practice" in front of both instances of the word, "sin".In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not children of God.
I agree with what you said about Paul, and I also take what you said about yourself at face value. But it's not clear how those statements are in conflict with what I said.OK. I understand your position now. We completely disagree though because of what Paul says in Galatians 5:22, 23. Paul did not trust his own works when he wrote that and I do not trust my own works for believing him.
You're close to my position. When we are changed by the power of the HS in our lives He causes us to live in obedience to the 10 commandments. That's what Galatians is all about.I agree with what you said about Paul, and I also take what you said about yourself at face value. But it's not clear how those statements are in conflict with what I said.
Perhaps you are saying that the fruits of the Spirit are in alignment with God's laws, so striving to obey the law is the same as walking in the Spirit? I don't know. Please help me understand your position.
I would say we are close also. I would only argue that Jesus coming to live in our hearts was not the result of us obeying His laws, but was the result of faith in His sacrifice for our sins. So, delight for the things of God in the inner man, which things eminate from His Spirit inside us, do not cause us to be saved, but rather are the result of us being saved.You're close to my position. When we are changed by the power of the HS in our lives He causes us to live in obedience to the 10 commandments. That's what Galatians is all about.
I have no problem with that as that is what I meant.I would say we are close also. I would only argue that Jesus coming to live in our hearts was not the result of us obeying His laws, but was the result of faith in His sacrifice for our sins. So, delight for the things of God in the inner man, which things eminate from His Spirit inside us, do not cause us to be saved, but rather are the result of us being saved.
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