Gal 4 condemns pagan days but does not condemn the Bible , nor scripture, nor Bible holy days

[BobRyan]

It is a contrast of priesthoods.

The ruling priesthood heads of the court. Which were not Gods by nature.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

the weak and poor elements of the earthly priestly ministry
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness (asthenes<772>) and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity (astheneia<769>); but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Christs priestly ministry is in power...

Gentiles in Gal 4 were not "former Jews" - they are "former pagans" as Galatians 4 points out.

 

[ralliann]

Gentiles in Gal 4 were not "former Jews" - they are "former pagans" as Galatians 4 points out.

What difference does that make? The Levitical priesthood was weak and useless to take away sin. The Levites were no more gods by nature than any other priests. The Gentiles were being persuaded by judaizers. That is what Galatians is about, just like the rest of the new testament scripture, a return to the weak and beggarly elements of the temple ministry to be made holy and take away sin.

 

[Greengardener]

What difference does that make? The Levitical priesthood was weak and useless to take away sin. The Levites were no more gods by nature than any other priests. The Gentiles were being persuaded by judaizers. That is what Galatians is about, just like the rest of the new testament scripture, a return to the weak and beggarly elements of the temple ministry to be made holy and take away sin.

It might help to look at it this way. Paul, as a former zealous religious leader, warned the Galatians to not fall for the weak elements of religious ritual of any kind, whether pagan or judaizing, but not away from the way God told people would work. Jesus was a teacher of the Law, and He taught as one having authority. He told us not to teach contrary to the law as well, so I don't see Paul flat out disobeying this same Jesus. Great peace have they which love Thy Law, and in nothing shall they be ashamed. That's the part we were supposed to keep, not the traditions that were built up around those life-giving words which had the effect of nullifying them. What did Jesus do in the wilderness when tempted? He stood on the Word God had said. We still do likewise. We don't stand on traditions or on pagan rituals, we don't stand with our confidence anywhere else but in God, the Eternal, and Jesus showed us what that looks like. We can always trust the Word of God. The Word and the words are in agreement. What is excluded is the man-made stuff.

 

[ralliann]

It might help to look at it this way. Paul, as a former zealous religious leader, warned the Galatians to not fall for the weak elements of religious ritual of any kind, whether pagan or judaizing, but not away from the way God told people would work. Jesus was a teacher of the Law, and He taught as one having authority. He told us not to teach contrary to the law as well, so I don't see Paul flat out disobeying this same Jesus. Great peace have they which love Thy Law, and in nothing shall they be ashamed. That's the part we were supposed to keep, not the traditions that were built up around those life-giving words which had the effect of nullifying them. What did Jesus do in the wilderness when tempted? He stood on the Word God had said. We still do likewise. We don't stand on traditions or on pagan rituals, we don't stand with our confidence anywhere else but in God, the Eternal, and Jesus showed us what that looks like. We can always trust the Word of God. The Word and the words are in agreement. What is excluded is the man-made stuff.

I agree do not stand on rituals.
Pagan, Levitical, or rabbinic
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity (weakness); but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

 

[BobRyan]

I agree do not stand on rituals.
Pagan, Levitical, or rabbinic
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity (weakness); but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

"Do we make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31
"honor your father and mother for this is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" Eph 6:1-2 instead of "For this is one of the commandments abolished" - Paul goes out of his way to pull the TEN Commandments in to the topic.

"what maters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

"THIS IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments " 1 John 5:2-3

"sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- even in the NT

And in that context - observance of pagan days is flat out condemned in Gal 4.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Gentiles in Gal 4 were not "former Jews" - they are "former pagans" as Galatians 4 points out.

What difference does that make?

It means that pagan days were condemned in Gal 4 while in Romans 14 all the Bible holy days of Lev 23 are flat out defended. ... (the topic of the thread).

The Levitical priesthood was weak and useless to take away sin.

John the baptizer's father was one.. so was John.
Christ setup the Levitical priesthood at Sinai according to Paul in Hebrews 8:6-11

The fact that "animal sacrifices" do not take a way sin was never an argument for breaking the LAW of God.

"What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Christ quotes directly from the LAW of Moses in Matt 22 to establish the irrefutable unmovable foundation of scripture "the LAW and the Prophets".
Deu 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"
Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"

The Levites were no more gods by nature than any other priests.

John the baptizer did not claim to be a god... you are missing the entire point
John's father.. (also a Levite) did not claim to be a god.. nobody was "Worshiping levites". That is not what is being discussed in Gal 4.

Gal 4 is about pagan gentiles turned-christian returning to paganism's practices celebrating pagan days.

by contrast God says this of the "Levite" who is John the baptizer's father.

Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves (pagans) to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain


by contrast God says this of the "Levite" who is John the baptizer's father.

Luke 1
5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

Who is it standing WITH Christ in glory in Matthew 17 ... before the cross?
Moses (A Levite) and Elijah.

 

[ralliann]

BobRyan said: ↑
Gentiles in Gal 4 were not "former Jews" - they are "former pagans" as Galatians 4 points out.



It means that pagan days were condemned in Gal 4 while in Romans 14 all the Bible holy days of Lev 23 are flat out defended. ... (the topic of the thread).

The holy days were a shadow....
The law of Moses makes it illegal for an uncircumcised man to eat the Passover. We have a Passover in Christ apart from the law of Moses..

Right they were FORMER pagans that were being persuaded to become circumcised.

Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

The weakness of the Levitical ministry is what is being spoken of here.

Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Galatians is about Judaizers...………………...
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. {so many: or, so great }
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

This was not about former pagans returning to pagan practice.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

 

[BobRyan]

The holy days were a shadow....

Lev 23 holy days were shadows (predictions) of the Messiah. But Paul is not condemning anyone who observes them in Rom 14 he is flat out condemning anyone who would oppose the observance of them.

5 One person regards one day above another, another observes every day . Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt?

Paul himself observed Passover regarded as the first day of unleavened bread: Acts 20:6
He was known this way among Christian Jews:

Acts 21: 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.


By contrast in Gal 4 it is not Bible holy days - but pagan holy days being condemned where even the observance of one - was to risk salvation itself.

Gal 4
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.


Moses and Elijah stand "With Christ" in Matt 17 - before the Cross
Moses was a Christian:

24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.

Christ quoted "the LAW of Moses" in Matt 22 as the LAW all should obey -

Matt 22
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

So then it is "still a sin" to take God's name in vain

The unit of TEN where "the first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment - is still binding on mankind Eph 6:2

No wonder Paul quotes from Moses - and the TEN in Romans 13 just as Christ did in Matt 19.

The law of Moses makes it illegal for an uncircumcised man to eat the Passover.

But did not oppose their attending Sabbath worship service "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 such that in Acts 13 "the next Sabbath the entire TOWN turned out to hear more gospel preaching" for the gentiles had asked that more gospel be preached to them "the NEXT Sabbath"

No wonder gentiles were specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping in the OT Isaiah 56:6-8

Right they were FORMER pagans that were turning "back again" to the old pagan days

meanwhile ALL Lev 23 Bible holy days are defended by Paul in Romans 14.

 

[BobRyan]

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The role of God's commandments (like "do not take God's name in vain') is to convict the entire world of sin "that every mouth may be shut and all the world held accountable to God" Rom 3:19-20 - it defines what sin IS - that is the way God's Law is when it comes to the lost.

The lost "do not submit to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they" Roman 8:4-11 by contrast to the saints who walk in obedience to it in Romans 8.

Many people see clearly the role of the LAW of God for the lost - but in Jer 31:31-34 the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his readers (so then -- exegesis) is "written on heart and mind" under the NEW Covenant (and continues unchanged in the NT - Hebrews 8:6-11)

No wonder then "Do we make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

The one where "the first commandment with a promise is the 5th commandment" Eph 6:1-2

 

[Greengardener]

The holy days were a shadow....
The law of Moses makes it illegal for an uncircumcised man to eat the Passover. We have a Passover in Christ apart from the law of Moses..

Right they were FORMER pagans that were being persuaded to become circumcised.

Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

The weakness of the Levitical ministry is what is being spoken of here.

Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Galatians is about Judaizers...………………...
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. {so many: or, so great }
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

This was not about former pagans returning to pagan practice.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Ralliann, Paul circumcised Timothy. I mention this to suggest that there may be more to the discussion than has been brought out to you previously.

 

[BobRyan]

Ralliann, Paul circumcised Timothy. .

-- as the first thing recorded immediately after the Acts 15 council.... in Acts 16.

 

[ralliann]

Ralliann, Paul circumcised Timothy. I mention this to suggest that there may be more to the discussion than has been brought out to you previously.

Timothy was born to a Jewess. Gentiles are not to become circumcised.

 

[BobRyan]

Timothy was born to a Jewess. Gentiles are not to become circumcised.

Gentiles were never were required to be circumcised - OT or NT. hence all of the "gentiles" in the synagogues in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-6, Acts 18:4 etc.

 

[ralliann]

Gentiles were never were required to be circumcised - OT or NT. hence all of the "gentiles" in the synagogues in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-6, Acts 18:4 etc.

This question arose due to partaking of the Passover. So yes circumcision was required to partake of that festal meal. The Christian Gentiles were to behave according to the law of Noachide taught in the synagogues. I believe this was to keep them included in the exemption from idols by Judeo/Roman law.

 

[BobRyan]

This question arose due to partaking of the Passover. So yes circumcision was required to partake of that festal meal. .

But nothing is said about Passover in the Acts 15 discussion regarding gentiles and no text in OT or NT says gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved which is exactly the point of Acts 15:1

hence the OP and this --
Saturday at 8:15 AM #28

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This question arose due to partaking of the Passover. So yes circumcision was required to partake of that festal meal. The Christian Gentiles were to behave according to the law of Noachide taught in the synagogues. I believe this was to keep them included in the exemption from idols by Judeo/Roman law.

Some Jews a few years ago noted for me that once it was required, but is no longer (since Christ) required, to partake of the "festal meal" / Passover.

 

[ralliann]

Some Jews a few years ago noted for me that once it was required, but is no longer (since Christ) required, to partake of the "festal meal" / Passover.

yes the Christian Passover is for Jew and gentile alike according to promise. We are all children of promise.

 

[ralliann]

But nothing is said about Passover in the Acts 15 discussion regarding gentiles and no text in OT or NT says gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved which is exactly the point of Acts 15:1

hence the OP and this --
Saturday at 8:15 AM #28

What has that to do with the discussion of pagan festivals?

 

[BobRyan]

What has that to do with the discussion of pagan festivals?

There are two subjects in Romans 14

The Bible holy days each year listed in Lev 23 where one person observes one above the others while another person observes them all. And the second scenario is the one where one person is eating vegetables only who is weak in the faith, while another person eats both meat and vegetables .. he who eats meat who is strong in the faith. But Paul affirms all the examples -- even the one where one observes one of those holy days above the others

By contrast in Gal 4 it condemns any observance of the pagan days

 

[ralliann]

There are two subjects in Romans 14

The Bible holy days each year listed in Lev 23 where one person observes one above the others while another person observes them all. And the second scenario is the one where one person is eating vegetables only who is weak in the faith, while another person eats both meat and vegetables .. he who eats meat who is strong in the faith. But Paul affirms all the examples -- even the one where one observes one of those holy days above the others

By contrast in Gal 4 it condemns any observance of the pagan days

We just disagree on this and that's ok. In Christ the weakness concerning things has to do with ones conscience.
1Co 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
1Co 10:27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
1Co 10:28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof:
1Co 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man’s conscience?

With regards to a change in the priesthood concerning these things.
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Maybe it is necessary here to agree to disagree....

There are no days which are in and of themselves pagan. Nor is there anything to eat that is in and of themselves unclean. It is the thoughts of the heart that matter in Christ.