Gal 4 condemns pagan days but does not condemn the Bible , nor scripture, nor Bible holy days

BobRyan

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We just disagree on this and that's ok. In Christ the weakness concerning things has to do with ones conscience.
1Co 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
1Co 10:27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
1Co 10:28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof:

Indeed the "sacrificed to idols" issue was something that bothered gentiles ... but not Jews like Paul.

1 Cor 8
Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. 2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

---No God but one -- is not the world of pagan gentiles... it is the world of Jews and of Christians.

---Some raised as Jews and some were raised as pagan gentiles.


7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

--- they are weak in that being idol worshipers until now, until coming to Christ.. they still eat food "AS IF" sacrificed to ideals. Their conscience "being weak" is defiled
 
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BobRyan

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With regards to a change in the priesthood concerning these things.
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

there was indeed a change of the priesthood from Levitical to Christ -

Heb 7
11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. ...24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;

Heb 8
Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all,

So in the NT we find that Acts 15 instructs gentiles not to eat meat sacrificed to idols and 1 Cor 8 tells us that this is the case because conscience of the gentile turned from paganism "was weak"

1 Cor 8
some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled
 
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BobRyan

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Maybe it is necessary here to agree to disagree....

There are no days which are in and of themselves pagan. Nor is there anything to eat that is in and of themselves unclean. It is the thoughts of the heart that matter in Christ.

yet specifically condemns the observance of the pagan days in Gal 4.

writing to the gentiles -- who were pagans Paul says

Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.
 
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ralliann

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there was indeed a change of the priesthood from Levitical to Christ -

Heb 7
11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. ...24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;

Heb 8
Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all,

So in the NT we find that Acts 15 instructs gentiles not to eat meat sacrificed to idols and 1 Cor 8 tells us that this is the case because conscience of the gentile turned from paganism "was weak"

1 Cor 8
some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled
I was not a former pagan when I came to Christ. How many of us have ever had pagan priests with temple sacrifices?
 
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ralliann

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yet specifically condemns the observance of the pagan days in Gal 4.

1. Their were no days themselves which were "pagan". There were pagan priests and temples and sacrifices which pagans shared in.

2. They were no longer pagans...…. BUT NOW....
9 But now that you have come to know God,

3.They were being persuaded by Judaizers to the Levitical system of priesthood, temple and sacrifices.
the order of Aaron being the ruling judges in the high courts, were no more BY NATURE Gods than other men. Their service to God was weak in its sacrifices and washings.

As your quote below shows....they were former pagans...they had come to know God, were known by God.

yet specifically condemns the observance of the pagan days in Gal 4.
Then
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.[/quote]
Now...….
9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God,[/quote]
Paul never said they turned from God, but to the weak and elementary observances and service of the Levitical priesthood.
 
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BobRyan

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I was not a former pagan when I came to Christ.

True --

But you also were not in Galatia in the first century A.D. having recently converted to Christianity ... yet that does not delete Paul's letter to that very church in the first century.
 
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BobRyan

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yet specifically condemns the observance of the pagan days in Gal 4.

writing to the gentiles -- who were pagans Paul says

Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

1. Their were no days themselves which were "pagan". There were pagan priests and temples and sacrifices which pagans shared in.

and pagan days to which these newly-turned-Christian gentiles were "turning back again".

Notice how Paul condemns even one observance.. where in Romans 14 all observances are strictly defended for the Bible approved holy days. No condemnation of those observing them is allowed in Rom 14
 
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ralliann

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yet specifically condemns the observance of the pagan days in Gal 4.

1. Their were no days themselves which were "pagan". There were pagan priests and temples and sacrifices which pagans shared in.

2. They were no longer pagans...…. BUT NOW....
9 But now that you have come to know God,

3.They were being persuaded by Judaizers to the Levitical system of priesthood, temple and sacrifices.
the order of Aaron being the ruling judges in the high courts, were no more BY NATURE Gods than other men. Their service to God was weak in its sacrifices and washings.

As your quote below shows....they were former pagans...they had come to know God, were known by God.

yet specifically condemns the observance of the pagan days in Gal 4.

Then
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.[/quote]
Now...….
9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God,[/quote]
Paul never said they turned from God, but to the weak and elementary observances and service of the Levitical priesthood.
True --

But you also were not in Galatia in the first century A.D. having recently converted to Christianity ... yet that does not delete Paul's letter to that very church in the first century.
It is about the conscience.....
No my conscience had not grown accoustomed to idols, nor their sacrificial fellowship meals. That is the point of that the DAYS themselves have nothing to do with anything.
 
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BobRyan

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you claim Paul is condemning scripture in Gal 4
weak and elementary observances and service of the Levitical priesthood.

Paul claims he is condemning that which is not of God at all.

Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Paganism.

pagan holy days in Gal 4.

hint: the gentiles of Gal 4 did not "used to be Jews or Levites"
===========================

by contrast in Rom 14 ALL observance of ALL days in the Bible approved list is defended and Paul allows for no condemnation at all for anyone observing them.
 
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BobRyan

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It is about the conscience.....
No my conscience had not grown accoustomed to idols, nor their sacrificial fellowship meals. .

True --

But you also were not in Galatia in the first century A.D. having recently converted to Christianity ... yet that does not delete Paul's letter to that very church in the first century.

No wonder then the Acts 15 council in Jerusalem specifically instructed gentiles with weak consciences who eat food "as if sacrificed to idols" to "avoid eating food sacrificed to idols"
 
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BobRyan

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Indeed the "sacrificed to idols" issue was something that bothered gentiles ... but not Jews like Paul.

1 Cor 8
Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. 2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

---No God but one -- is not the world of pagan gentiles... it is the world of Jews and of Christians.

---Some raised as Jews and some were raised as pagan gentiles.


7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

--- they are weak in that being idol worshipers until now, until coming to Christ.. they still eat food "AS IF" sacrificed to ideals. Their conscience "being weak" is defiled

No wonder then the Acts 15 council in Jerusalem specifically instructed gentiles with weak consciences who eat food "as if sacrificed to idols" to "avoid eating food sacrificed to idols"
 
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ralliann

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you claim Paul is condemning scripture in Gal 4


Paul claims he is condemning that which is not of God at all.

Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Paganism.

pagan holy days in Gal 4.

hint: the gentiles of Gal 4 did not "used to be Jews or Levites"
===========================

by contrast in Rom 14 ALL observance of ALL days in the Bible approved list is defended and Paul allows for no condemnation at all for anyone observing them.
Who were they slaves to? Who told them what to do? The pagan holy men the priests. Just like you speak as though days in themselves are pagan, now you speak of Gentiles as though they were not subject to pagan holy men (priests). Unto whom they brought sacrifices and offerings and gifts (enriching them) just as the Jews did to the Levitical priesthood.
 
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ralliann

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Who were they slaves to? Who told them what to do? The pagan holy men the priests. Just like you speak as though days in themselves are pagan, now you speak of Gentiles as though they were not subject to pagan holy men (priests). Unto whom they brought sacrifices and offerings and gifts (enriching them) just as the Jews did to the Levitical priesthood.
We simply are going to disagree as long as you make it about days being pagan in themselves and Pagans not being subject to their religious priestly rulers.
 
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ralliann

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We simply are going to disagree as long as you make it about days being pagan in themselves and Pagans not being subject to their religious priestly rulers.
Just like this....
11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.
12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.
13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.
14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:
16 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.
17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.
18 And with these sayings scarce restrained they the people, that they had not done sacrifice unto them.

Like the law says of the Levitical high priest
Ac 23:3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God’s high priest?
5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

Paul was quoting the scripture here
Ex 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people. {gods: or, judges }

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
 
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BobRyan

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Who were they slaves to? Who told them what to do? The pagan holy men the priests.

indeed in paganism the pagans are enslaved to "doctrines of demons" according to Paul in 1 Cor 8 and 1 Tim 4.

In Romans 6 they are "enslaved to sin".
In Eph 2:1-5 - enslaved to the devil.

(just stating the obvious at this point)

In Gal 4 enslaved to idols and those things which are not gods at all.

writing to the gentiles -- who were pagans Paul says

Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

1 Cor 8
Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. 2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

---No God but one -- is not the world of pagan gentiles... it is the world of Jews and of Christians.

---Some raised as Jews and some were raised as pagan gentiles.


7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

--- they are weak in that being idol worshipers until now, until coming to Christ.. they still eat food "AS IF" sacrificed to ideals. Their conscience "being weak" is defiled
 
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BobRyan

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Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.


1 Cor 8
Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. 2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.


We simply are going to disagree as long as you make it about days being pagan in themselves and Pagans not being subject to their religious priestly rulers.

Its ok for us to disagree.

--- they (the gentiles of 1 Cor 8 are weak in that being idol worshipers until now, until coming to Christ as Messiah.. they still eat food "AS IF" sacrificed to ideals. Their conscience "being weak" is defiled
 
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BobRyan

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My second attemp at getting "the topic" the POV posted without breaking any rules

(This is not intended as a thread topic on Christmas or Thanksgiving or ..)

My main point is that Paul is not condemning the Bible in Galatians 4 nor even Bible approved holy days

==========================================
Some have supposed that Galatians is in some way condemning -- those who follow holy days, festivals, sacrifices, passovers, ceremoniies, rituals, beads, sacraments, dietary laws, and sabbaths, are choosing a religion that is weak and ineffectual

So then to help with that point we might look for a quote from Galatians with that statement actually in it -- having such an actual quote would be very helpful to make that claim... but we don't have one.

even if someone where to say " Galatians 4:9-10 is a good indication " of a statement where Paul is condemning Bible approved "holy days, festivals, sacrifices, passovers, ceremoniies, rituals, beads, sacraments, dietary laws, and sabbaths,..." - that statement would be about an "indication" (an inference by the reader) and not an actual quote from Paul saying such a thing.

It would not meet the criteria for an "actual quote" with that statement "actually in it" from Galatians -- rather it would merely "indication" instead of quote. T

That some of us may "take it as an indication" of something means we would be "inferring it" and not the evidence that we actually "found a quote" with those words in it.

So then --
Gal 4:9-10 is a great example of a quote that does not mention Sabbath or Passover at all.

8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves (pagans) to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain

Paul is condemning the "return back again" to paganism in Gal 4:8-11 by daring to observe even one of those old pagan days, seasons etc -- and declaring it to be a loss of salvation itself.

By contrast in Rom 14 - Paul condemns anyone who dares to look down upon someone who observes one of the Bible approved annual holy days of Lev 23.

Rom 14
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord


others may claim that "Titus, a Gentile not being compelled to be circumcised is another example of an indication."

But we all know that Gentiles were not required to be circumcised in OT or NT "my house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations" - not the command that "everyone must join the nation of Israel" thus in Acts 13 we find "almost the whole city" gathered for worship on Sabbath.

In fact - Gal 4:9-10 is a great example -- showing that God does not condone observing "every day" as if it were the Sabbath. As the pagans that had converted to Christianity were showing a tendency "to turn back again" to the observance of pagan days.

8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves (pagans) to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain
 
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sparow

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I was not a former pagan when I came to Christ. How many of us have ever had pagan priests with temple sacrifices?

It depends on what one means or perceives "Pagan" to mean. In Latin it seems to have had to do with ethnicity; in English to day it means heathen. For me Pagan refers to all those religions not the religion of the God of Israel; a religion is identified by a Deity and it's law requirements, such as sacrificing food; according to my definition, the God of Israel is identified by His Law and ordinances; so those alleged Christians who abrogate the "Law of the God of Israel", are either Lawless or keep an alternate law and are therefore Pagan.

You may be aware that above you have identified or defined Pagan for your purpose.
 
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I have been reminded of the OP recently

My second attemp at getting "the topic" the POV posted without breaking any rules

(This is not intended as a thread topic on Christmas or Thanksgiving or ..)

My main point is that Paul is not condemning the Bible in Galatians 4 nor even Bible approved holy days

==========================================
Some have supposed that Galatians is in some way condemning -- those who follow holy days, festivals, sacrifices, passovers, ceremoniies, rituals, beads, sacraments, dietary laws, and sabbaths, are choosing a religion that is weak and ineffectual

So then to help with that point we might look for a quote from Galatians with that statement actually in it -- having such an actual quote would be very helpful to make that claim... but we don't have one.

even if someone where to say " Galatians 4:9-10 is a good indication " of a statement where Paul is condemning Bible approved "holy days, festivals, sacrifices, passovers, ceremoniies, rituals, beads, sacraments, dietary laws, and sabbaths,..." - that statement would be about an "indication" (an inference by the reader) and not an actual quote from Paul saying such a thing.

It would not meet the criteria for an "actual quote" with that statement "actually in it" from Galatians -- rather it would merely "indication" instead of quote. T

That some of us may "take it as an indication" of something means we would be "inferring it" and not the evidence that we actually "found a quote" with those words in it.

So then --
Gal 4:9-10 is a great example of a quote that does not mention Sabbath or Passover at all.

8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves (pagans) to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain

Paul is condemning the "return back again" to paganism in Gal 4:8-11 by daring to observe even one of those old pagan days, seasons etc -- and declaring it to be a loss of salvation itself.

By contrast in Rom 14 - Paul condemns anyone who dares to look down upon someone who observes one of the Bible approved annual holy days of Lev 23.

Rom 14
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord


others may claim that "Titus, a Gentile not being compelled to be circumcised is another example of an indication."

But we all know that Gentiles were not required to be circumcised in OT or NT "my house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations" - not the command that "everyone must join the nation of Israel" thus in Acts 13 we find "almost the whole city" gathered for worship on Sabbath.

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New Covenant - Jer 31:31-34 "this is the NEW Covenant - I will write My LAW on their heart and mind... and remember their sins no more". So that's the "one Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9

Old Covenant condition - Gal 3 "obey and live" -- just as we saw in the case of Adam and Eve before the fall. Sinless beings could do it ... sinful beings need the gospel.

Sinai in Gal 4 is a "symbol" a "type" where law that says "do not take God's name in vain" is external on stone but not on the new heart created by the New Covenant. A symbol of the lost condition.

Moses and Elijah lived at or after Sinai - and BOTH are with Christ in glory - before the cross in Matthew 17... saved by grace through faith under the "one Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 that was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
 
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