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G-d in Human form

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Talmid HaYarok, Feb 28, 2003.

  1. Talmid HaYarok

    Talmid HaYarok Active Member

    475
    +8
    Messianic
    Surfing the web I came across this:


    A nice counter to the Orthodox argument that a Messianic portrayal of G-d as human is idolatry.
     
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  2. TorahsDisciple

    TorahsDisciple I Come To Serve

    86
    +0
    It it not only idolatry  it is blaphemy.  To worship a man as G_D is evil...pure and simple...you not only deny G_D you deny the very teachings of the Messiah who you CLAIM to follow.      :(
     
  3. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5
    YIKES! :eek:

    TorahsDisciple..that's not cool to say that at all. Just because someone doesn't believe as you do doesn't make them a blasphemer or idolater.

    Some people believe that Yeshua is God and that doesn't make one evil...

    I know you don't probably believe in this but I will give it a try anyway. In the book of Hebrews it says this: (KJV)

    Hebrews 1:   1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets....8   But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.9
       Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows

    Here God is speaking and He (God) himself refers to Yeshua as God. But even further than that...check this out:

    Here in Hebrews chapter 1 (please read the whole chapter if you want but for sake of space I am not posting the whole chapter) the author proves the overall superiority of Yeshua. He presents the superiority of Yeshua in a Seven fold manner:

    1) Being the Son, He has a better name than they (vs 4-5).

    2.) He is worshipped (v. 6)

    3.)and served (v. 7) by the angels.

    4.) Yeshua is God (v. 8)

    5.) He created the angels (v. 10)

    6.)He is from everlasting to everlasting (vv 11, 12)

    7.) He sits at God's right hand (v. 13).

    Thus concluding the dignity of the Son is the dignity of God, but the dignity of the angels is that of mere servants (v.14)

    So in essence Yeshua is indeed God. This is not the same exact belief as a trinity in my personal opinion. But I have no problem with those that refer to it as that for a clearer understanding. The believe that Yeshua is God is not the same as believing in 3 separate gods. It's hard to explain and this is why this concept never is agreed upon. But God the Father, Yeshua the Son, and the Holy Spirit are God. Not 3 separated, but ALL ONE. They function in different ways like limbs of the body (for a lack of a more educated example). God would be the brain, Yeshua the Heart, and the HS would be other limbs that carry out a function such as the legs the arms..etc..

    I know you probably don't believe in this..but I just wanted to explain to you with those of us that believe Yeshua is God believe in, that way you won't need to call us idolaters or blasphemers or evil..since that's not very nice..

    Missy


     
     
  4. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5
    Okay Torah..I am TOTALLY confused now.. I just looked at your profile and it says your a Torah Observant Christian..

    Do I have something totally confused ? Can you explain to me exactly what your definition of Torah Observant Christian is ?

    I have always know it to be: A Gentile that believes Yeshua is the Messiah, and one that follows the law such as being kosher, celebrating the feasts, and keeping of the 613 commands in the Tanach.. and I have always know Christians of any type to accept that Yeshua is indeed God. Especially since the definition of Christian is one that follows Christ..

    Can you please clarify what you perceive a Torah Observant Christian to be ??

    Missy
     
  5. Ruhama

    Ruhama 25 'הושע ב

    647
    +16
    Messianic
    Well putting aside all other things, there are places where God literally appears in human form in the OT.

    Off the top of my head here are some instances

    (implied but not presumed things in parentheses):

    (Garden of Eden, where he walks and talks with the first humans)
    Talking to Abraham
    Wrestling with Jacob
    (in the furnace with Shadrach et al)
    the ever mysterious "Angel of the Lord"...

    ... It is completely within scriptural bounds to say God can take on human form.

    In worshiping a man, making him to take God's place and role, one engages in blasphemy and idolatry. In worshiping God, it does not matter what form he takes (burning bush, mighty wind, quiet small voice, mighty one on a throne).   As he says - "Ehieh asher ehieh."
     
  6. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

    +407
    Judaism
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    International Christian Synagouge??????

    wha?
     
  7. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5
    Exactly...
     
  8. TorahsDisciple

    TorahsDisciple I Come To Serve

    86
    +0

    MISSY,

    First, yes, you basically have the definition of what a Torah Observant Christian is, with THIS exception...a Christan simply CAN NOT be a gentile.  Once a person becomes a Christian they are Israel...not a gentile for the gentiles are the ones who know NOT G_D (1 Thes. 4:5)

    Secondly, you need to note that what you said is the "definition of a Christian" is to FOLLOW Christ....and this is exactly the point...HE taught that HE had a G_D to whom HE was NOT equal..to whom HE worshipped and served...and HE instructed others to do likewise.  No true Christian would EVER claim that JESUS was G_D...this is heresy and blasphemy.  This is one of the many great lies taught by the fallen "church". 

    To truly be a Christian one must follow what CHRIST taught...not what man teaches.

     
     
  9. TorahsDisciple

    TorahsDisciple I Come To Serve

    86
    +0
    RUHAMA,

    Most of the examples where people have been taught that it was G_D appearing etc, it is usually Christ and not G_D...such as in the beginning of Job etc. for NO man has ever saw the face G_D according to the scriptures.
     
  10. TorahsDisciple

    TorahsDisciple I Come To Serve

    86
    +0
    SIMCHAT_TORAH

    I do not understand what your question is suppose to be.
     
  11. Talmid HaYarok

    Talmid HaYarok Active Member

    475
    +8
    Messianic
    Heh heh, that was intersting.

    So if ones uses a mural of the Lord appearing to Moses in the Burning Bush, is that idolatry and blasphemy too?

    So is the Bible, the Torah Blasphemous and Idolatrous in saying these things to? :D :scratch: :p
     
  12. Ruhama

    Ruhama 25 'הושע ב

    647
    +16
    Messianic
    TorahsDisciple:

    "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, YHWH appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty, walk before me and be blameless."
    Genesis 17:1

    "And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, 'And let all the angels of God worship him.' ...of the Son he says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever... therefore God, they God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy companions." Hebrews 1:6-9

    Equality with the Spirit of God:
    "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. After a little while the world will behold me no more, but you will behold me." John 14:18-19

    "He who has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, says this:...he who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." Revelation 3:1-6
     
  13. Ruhama

    Ruhama 25 'הושע ב

    647
    +16
    Messianic
    Just saw this one:

    "Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel, and under his feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as teh sky itself.  Yet he did not stretch out his hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel, and they beheld God, and they ate and drank." Exodus 24:9-11
     
  14. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5

    No offense but that doesn't even make good common sense. If you are born a Jew you are a Jew. If you are born a Gentile you are a Gentile.. Just like if someone is born black he doesn't turn white over night.. Yeah yeah..I know about Michael Jackson but he's still black.

    It's a misconception that Gentiles that are Torah Observant become Jewish in anyway. One can only become a Jew by conversion to Judiasm period. I offer you this information from Judiasm 101:

    A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism. It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship. This has been established since the earliest days of Judaism. In the Torah, you will see many references to "the strangers who dwell among you" or "righteous proselytes" or "righteous strangers." These are various classifications of non-Jews who lived among Jews, adopting some or all of the beliefs and practices of Judaism without going through the formal process of conversion and becoming Jews. Once a person has converted to Judaism, he is not referred to by any special term; he is as much a Jew as anyone born Jewish.


    And no offense to you.. but I would think one so studied as you come off as trying to present yourself would know that already.. If you don't believe Yeshua is God..so be it.. but I and anyone else that believes it has every right too. And lastly, I hardly think you could "teach" me anything about Judiasm.. though you could try..LOL!

    Toodles,Missy
     
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