funny communion story

[ThePilgrim]

Does the EO Bible not contain 1 Corinthians? Apparently not.

So do you, Lutherans, agree with Luther when he said that the injunction for a man to examine himself applies only to adults?

 

[DaRev]

So do you, Lutherans, agree with Luther when he said that the injunction for a man to examine himself applies only to adults?

I believe that it applies to those who are instructed to do so, at whatever age that instruction and examination can be properly done.

 

[LutheranChick]

Well, throw tomatoes at me if I'm all wrong here, but I believe there is a great distinction between baptizing infants and giving them Communion. God commanded that we 'Go therefore and teach ALL NATIONS (meaning all people, which includes infants) baptizing them...etc.

However, in the case of the Lord's Supper, Pauls words are clear: "Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself" (1 Corinthians 11:27-29).

How can an infant possibly examine itself or recognize the body of the Lord in communion? I believe "anyone" (of course I don't know what Greek word is used) would include all ages, correct?

 

[LutheranChick]

The WELS website has a good explanation concerning the age of a person in regards to communion:
http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1712&cxDatabase_databaseID=1&id=1002&magazine=Forward in Christ

 

[BabyLutheran]

I am not sure what the theory is, maybe the parents are responsible for the child as an infant, so the discernment is on the child's behalf.

I don't know.

Even though my church allows it, I probably would not let my own small children do it.

 

[Qoheleth]

How can an infant possibly examine itself or recognize the body of the Lord in communion? I believe "anyone" (of course I don't know what Greek word is used) would include all ages, correct?

Since the Lord's Supper requires understanding of what the sacrament is and the self-examination of the communicant, the "age cut-off" is an age that the individual can make that confession of faith necessary to be in communion with the Church and make that self-examination. Infants cannot do either, thus...

The examined communicant would be the person who has repentant faith. Infants do have faith, and I would say that all true faith is repentant faith. We would not deny this faith to infants, in fact we dont.

In searching the Lutheran Confessions, I have found nothing which denies the Lords Supper to infants. In fact the Lutheran Confessions appear to support the admission of infants to the Sacrament...




The Formula of Concord, Epitome

8. We believe, teach, and confess that there is only one kind of unworthy guest, namely, those who do not believe. Of such it is written, “He who does not believe is condemned already” (John 3:18). The unworthy use of the holy sacrament increases, magnifies, and aggravates this condemnation (I Cor. 11:27,29).

9. We believe, teach, and confess that no genuine believer, no matter how weak he may be, as long as he retains a living faith, will receive the Holy Supper to his condemnation, for Christ has instituted this Supper particularly for Christians who are weak in the faith but repentant, to comfort them and to strengthen their weak faith.

10. We believe, teach, and confess that the entire worthiness of the guests at this heavenly feast is and consists solely and alone in the most holy obedience and complete merit of Christ, which we make our own through genuine faith and of which we are assured through the sacrament. Worthiness consists not at all in our own virtues or in our internal and external preparations.

On the other side, we unanimously reject and condemn all the following errors, which are contrary to the doctrine set forth above and to our simple faith and confession about Christ’s Supper: . . .

17. That the worthiness of the guests at this heavenly meal does not consist only in true faith in Christ, but also depends on people’s outward preparation.

18. That genuine believers, who have a genuine and living faith in Christ, can also receive this sacrament to their condemnation because they are still imperfect in their external behavior


Solid Declaration...

13. We also reject the doctrine that worthiness does not consist in true faith alone but also in a man’s own preparation.

14. Likewise, the teaching that even true believers who have and retain a true, genuine, living faith, but who fail to meet their own self-devised standard of preparation, may receive this sacrament for judgment, just like unworthy guests

__________________________


In all of these citations from the Lutheran Confessions, it appears that the only "unworthy" guest is the one who does not have repentant faith, of which infants do have. The uneducated or those of lesser intellect are not to be excluded.

Thoughts?


Q

 

[RadMan]

Well I've seen "the faith of a little child" but I've never seen the repentance of a child. If it's not explained in the Bible and the BOC then it is not necessary to understand or put into effect as a theological issue. I'm wondering if your comment about a child's repentance might be off the mark since I haven't seen it mentioned in the Bible. In baptism the sponsor's express the faith for the child but not repentance.

I just can't imagine putting wine into the baby bottle and mash up the wafer so they can digest it?

 

[DaRev]

The Confessions are not above the Scriptures, which are very clear as to the conditions of proper reception of the Sacrament.

The FoC deals with certain controversies, such as the Sacramentarians' symbolism and the RC's requirement of fasting for proper reception.

 

[Qoheleth]

Well I've seen "the faith of a little child" but I've never seen the repentance of a child. If it's not explained in the Bible and the BOC then it is not necessary to understand or put into effect as a theological issue. I'm wondering if your comment about a child's repentance might be off the mark since I haven't seen it mentioned in the Bible. In baptism the sponsor's express the faith for the child but not repentance.

I just can't imagine putting wine into the baby bottle and mash up the wafer so they can digest it?

The infant does indeed have faith, that is what the Lutheran faith confesses. Its not an expression its a reality, correct?? What is true faith if not repentant faith? I do not think any here would deny the infant true faith, right?


And I have seen infants commune many many times...there is no issue.


Q

 

[Qoheleth]

The Confessions are not above the Scriptures, which are very clear as to the conditions of proper reception of the Sacrament.

But neither do the Confessions (a true and accurate exposition of Scripture) contradict the Scriptures...yes?

The FoC deals with certain controversies, such as the Sacramentarians' symbolism and the RC's requirement of fasting for proper reception.

Yet, it clearly, in accord with Scripture, describes the conditions of reception by any communicant. Does it not?


Q

 

[DaRev]

But neither do the Confessions (a true and accurate exposition of Scripture) contradict the Scriptures...yes?

Yet, it clearly, in accord with Scripture, describes the conditions of reception by any communicant. Does it not?

The Confessions do not contradict the Scriptures, and the quotes you posted do not speak of the conditions mentioned in 1 Corinthians.

It describes conditions of reception that are in compliance with the Scriptures. They cannot take away from the mandates of Scripture any more that they can add to or contradict the Scriptures.

The FoC deals with the controversies, applying the Scriptural teaching to those controversies, but it does not detail all of what the Scriptures teach concerning reception of the Sacrament. That is not the intent of the FoC. Remember, the Confessions are normed by the Scriptures.

 

[AngelusSax]

I wouldn't want my child to receive something so meaningful without fully understanding why just like I wouldn't let my child medicate herself.

I doubt 99.99999999999999999999% of adults "fully understand" it either, yet we commune them.

Communion is a point where the Kingdom of God breaks into our lives in the fullest glory, just like at baptism. To require full understanding of either is to say that our work of learning somehow merits God's Grace (either it's a Sacrament or it's not, there is no middle ground).

Does the EO Bible not contain 1 Corinthians? Apparently not.

Yes, I'm sure it does contain the passages of Scripture which warn against treating the communion meal as a time to eat for eating's sake and for getting drunk on the wine in debauchery, which is what Paul's admonishments in Scripture are all about, as many were eating their fill and drinking their fill to satisfy their carnal stomachs, leaving others without any to thus be both physically and spiritually starved.

 

[DaRev]

I doubt 99.99999999999999999999% of adults "fully understand" it either, yet we commune them.

But they are instructed and have the opportunity to understand. If they don't and commune anyway, that's between them and God.

Communion is a point where the Kingdom of God breaks into our lives in the fullest glory, just like at baptism. To require full understanding of either is to say that our work of learning somehow merits God's Grace (either it's a Sacrament or it's not, there is no middle ground).

But baptism and the Lord's Supper are distinct. They are not the same thing.

Yes, I'm sure it does contain the passages of Scripture which warn against treating the communion meal as a time to eat for eating's sake and for getting drunk on the wine in debauchery, which is what Paul's admonishments in Scripture are all about, as many were eating their fill and drinking their fill to satisfy their carnal stomachs, leaving others without any to thus be both physically and spiritually starved.

That was the situation that was occuring, and Paul took the opportunity to explain God's teaching on the matter of proper reception of the Lord's Supper and what was necessary for worthy and proper reception.

 

[Qoheleth]

The Confessions do not contradict the Scriptures, and the quotes you posted do not speak of the conditions mentioned in 1 Corinthians.

Then Im thoroughly confused because I can not name a Lutheran Pastor who does not reference these Confessional quotes as it applies to 1 Corinthians. So who knows, not me.

It describes conditions of reception that are in compliance with the Scriptures. They cannot take away from the mandates of Scripture any more that they can add to or contradict the Scriptures.

Ok. It seems to me that they do just that though (the quotes), and the mandates on who may receive, i.e. worthy, is very adequately outlined. The unworthy are those who do not believe (aka faith)


Q

 

[DaRev]

Then Im thoroughly confused because I can not name a Lutheran Pastor who does not reference these Confessional quotes as it applies to 1 Corinthians. So who knows, not me.

Ok. It seems to me that they do just that though (the quotes), and the mandates on who may receive, i.e. worthy, is very adequately outlined. The unworthy are those who do not believe (aka faith)


Q

Have you ever read 1 Corinthians, Q? I doubt you have, or you'd be able to see that the passages in the FoC that you quoted do not mention discernment or self examination that the Scriptures clearly and explicitly mention. The Confessions are thoroughly Scriptural, but they are not exhaustive of the Scriptures.

 

[Till]

Truly Worthy and Well Prepared:
A Reexamination of Infant Communion
in Light of Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions
with A Brief Historical Introduction:


http://wctc.net/~gehlbach/IC/Papers/Truly%20Worthy%202001.htm

 

[Qoheleth]

Have you ever read 1 Corinthians, Q? I doubt you have, or you'd be able to see that the passages in the FoC that you quoted do not mention discernment or self examination that the Scriptures clearly and explicitly mention. The Confessions are thoroughly Scriptural, but they are not exhaustive of the Scriptures.

I would just like to point out that the issues of "worthiness" and "repentant" and "faith" are all directly related to an *examined* communicant...how could they not be?


Of course I have read 1 Corinthians, how was that constructive? In fact the entire Western Church communed infants as a regular practice for nearly 1300 years and they read 1 Corinthians also.


I am not, (nor would I ever) condemning the Lutheran Churches today that do not commune infants, not at all. I am intensely interested though in historical documentation and context which addresses this issue.




In attempting to lay groundwork on where the official position of not communing infants exists in official Lutheran documents, it is telling (it seems) that they do not exist and other evidence for the practice perhaps does.


Along these lines the Large Catechism states explicitly...
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
61] Therefore such people must learn that it is the highest art to know that our Sacrament does not depend upon our worthiness. For we are not baptized because we are worthy and holy, nor do we go to confession because we are pure and without sin, but the contrary, because we are poor miserable men, and just because we are unworthy; unless it be some one who desires no grace and absolution nor intends to reform.


It is fascinating that Luther and the Reformers never, not once condemned the Eastern Churches on the matter of Infant Communion. It wasn't even an issue. Luther even passively supported the practice among the Hussites in that he would not condemn it. The communing of infants survived in the west well into the 15th century. And it is really very fascinating that the LCMS is in communion with the Lutheran Church of Japan and they practice infant Baptism.

There appears to be nothing in all of the Lutheran Confessions which deny, explicitly, the Lords Supper to infants. "faith comes by hearing" and we do not deny this hearing or faith to an infant.

In Baptism are not infants given faith, and their sin remitted? At that moment would it not appear that they are the most worthy to receive the Sacrament.

With that said, where and how would a quia subscription to the Confessions forbid the possibility of infant communion?



Q
[/FONT]

 

[BigNorsk]

I don't know of a lot of resources. It wasn't a big area of dispute.

http://www.geocities.com/resourcesforlutherans/communionage.htm

has some quotes.

Marv

 

[LilLamb219]

Qoheleth wrote:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
There appears to be nothing in all of the Lutheran Confessions which deny, explicitly, the Lords Supper to infants. "faith comes by hearing" and we do not deny this hearing or faith to an infant.[/FONT]

Did you bother reading v.2 of the LC? It says this:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2] and which every one who desires to be a Christian and go to the Sacrament should know. For it is not our intention to admit to it and to administer it to those who know not what they seek, or why they come.[/FONT]

 

[RadMan]

Did you bother reading v.2 of the LC? It says this:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2] and which every one who desires to be a Christian and go to the Sacrament should know. For it is not our intention to admit to it and to administer it to those who know not what they seek, or why they come.[/FONT]

I think that says it all and answers Q's statement sufficiently.