Fundamentalism and Intellectualism

[Hentenza]

Too may causes, original causes and uncaused causes for me, sorry. That makes no sense to me.

Then you should study it.

As for "chance" would you think that the intricate pattern of a watershed, all mathematical and highly structured, is that a chance event? Likewise many another highly ordered but non living thing?

To me the are the logical, inevitable consequence of energy matter and the laws that govern them.

That's the point. I dont believe them to be a chance event. How does the energy matter and the laws that govern them cause the first organism to exist?

And cause wise, we have the problem of what caused god and caused him to know how to do all this stuff. But thats going too far for this thread.

If you follow the casualty argument then you would know that there can not be an infinite series of causes so there has to be a cause that is uncaused. Some have tried to refute this but have only ended up positing fallacies.

 

[redwards]

Is still your opinion since you are yet to present evidence to quantify it.

You didn't ask, but I'm happy to hear that you're willing to accept the proposition on evidence, rather than ignoring it on faith. There is a preponderance of evidence, do you have a particular metric that you'd be most interested in seeing the results for, or should I just start listing the studies one by one?

 

[redwards]

There were lions in Eden?

Were you there?

Are you implying that they evolved later, then?

 

[Hentenza]

You didn't ask, but I'm happy to hear that you're willing to accept the proposition on evidence, rather than ignoring it on faith. There is a preponderance of evidence, do you have a particular metric that you'd be most interested in seeing the results for, or should I just start listing the studies one by one?

Is your premise. Post away.

 

[Catherineanne]

I'd just as soon not see anyone in long red undies, tbh.

If my scenario was right, though, we have Jesus' followers attributing to him a magical ability, and Jesus letting them think they're right. Unless you think he also believed it himself. Which brings up possibilities I'm not permitted to discuss on CF.

Not magic. Miracle. I think we have to take the gospels at face value on this one. Whether it actually happened or not, the story existed, and was repeated, and was believed. It was not a magic trick, because our faith is not about magic (contrary to what you might think, even from parts of this forum).

 

[Hespera]

Then you should study it.




That's the point. I dont believe them to be a chance event. How does the energy matter and the laws that govern them cause the first organism to exist?



If you follow the casualty argument then you would know that there can not be an infinite series of causes so there has to be a cause that is uncaused. Some have tried to refute this but have only ended up positing fallacies.

Regarding chance, no, a river valley and the whole drainage system is not chance at all, it is the inevitable result of the forces of nature. I figure life is the same way.

In the past, people had very little idea how all sorts of things happened. Where did a tsunami come from why does it rain, what is lightning, etc.

Generally there were supernatural explanations.

At the present time, nobody knows under what circumstances life arose. There are some interesting hints, in terms of the complex organic molecules that spontaneously form themselves.

Perhaps we will know some day, maybe not. Give science a chance here! Science as we know it is in its infancy. Ten thousand years from now, lets see what is known. (wish I could!)

Anyway, just coz I dont know how something happened seems a poor reason to assume its supernatural. Thats proven to be the wrong explanation for so many things that were assumed to be supernatural.

 

[Hespera]

Not magic. Miracle. I think we have to take the gospels at face value on this one. Whether it actually happened or not, the story existed, and was repeated, and was believed. It was not a magic trick, because our faith is not about magic (contrary to what you might think, even from parts of this forum).

Definitions of magic on the Web:

• any art that invokes supernatural powers

Why does the word "magic" not fit? Magic "trick" of course, is another thing altogether. Miracle - magic, magic-miracle, what is the difference?

 

[Catherineanne]

Why would I cite the fall when discussing animal behavior? The fall technically only affected man not animals.

This is not in fact the case. I am no expert by any means, but as I understand it man's fall had a direct effect on nature, and a previously peaceful co-existence among lettuce eating lions, tigers and lambs in the Garden of Eden ended up being corrupted into the nature-red-in-tooth-and-claw that we know and love today.

The theory is that man is the first fruit of the redemption, and that from our redemption will follow all the other parts of creation, ultimately resulting in the lion resuming his lettuce eating habits, and sleeping alongside those baby baa lambs once again. We have Isaiah to thank for this pastorale.

Therefore the fall did not affect only mankind, but the whole of creation.

 

[Hentenza]

Regarding chance, no, a river valley and the whole drainage system is not chance at all, it is the inevitable result of the forces of nature. I figure life is the same way.

In the past, people had very little idea how all sorts of things happened. Where did a tsunami come from why does it rain, what is lightning, etc.

Generally there were supernatural explanations.

At the present time, nobody knows under what circumstances life arose. There are some interesting hints, in terms of the complex organic molecules that spontaneously form themselves.

Perhaps we will know some day, maybe not. Give science a chance here! Science as we know it is in its infancy. Ten thousand years from now, lets see what is known. (wish I could!)

Anyway, just coz I dont know how something happened seems a poor reason to assume its supernatural. Thats proven to be the wrong explanation for so many things that were assumed to be supernatural.

Then you are negating a supernatural explanation of origins based on faith.

 

[Catherineanne]

Definitions of magic on the Web:

• any art that invokes supernatural powers

Why does the word "magic" not fit? Magic "trick" of course, is another thing altogether. Miracle - magic, magic-miracle, what is the difference?

The agent.

Magic is man attempting to control nature/the deity through spell, incantation, ritual etc. It is indeed the invoking by man of supernatural powers, and it is thoroughly unChristian.

Miracle is God acting in nature.

Anything Our Lord does is miracle, but not magic. Which is, admittedly, circular, but what can you do?

 

[Bombila]

Not magic. Miracle. I think we have to take the gospels at face value on this one. Whether it actually happened or not, the story existed, and was repeated, and was believed. It was not a magic trick, because our faith is not about magic (contrary to what you might think, even from parts of this forum).

Goes to my last post to Hentenza, that it is impossible to get any two Christians to agree on all facets of belief.

Looking from the outside, there is not one difference between miraculously tranforming water to wine in an instant and magically tranforming water into wine in an instant. The only difference is who performed the act. AFAICT, that is what constitutes the difference between this kind of miracle and magic: who done it. And perhaps that is all you mean.

In fact, if my natural explanation for such an event were correct, it was a trick, but not magic and not miracle. Magic has two meanings, one based in reality (magic tricks) and one based in supernatural notions (performing magic, casting a spell, etc.).

 

[Catherineanne]

The only difference is who performed the act. AFAICT, that is what constitutes the difference between this kind of miracle and magic: who done it. And perhaps that is all you mean.

It is indeed. God is the agent of miracles, man is the attempted agent of magic.

God is allowed to do anything he wants; that is part of his job description.

If man attempts magic, he attempts to manipulate either nature or God himself. Therefore it constitutes an act of blasphemy; man taking the place of the Creator.

Perhaps it is best summed up as a matter of authority.

 

[Hentenza]

This is not in fact the case. I am no expert by any means, but as I understand it man's fall had a direct effect on nature, and a previously peaceful co-existence among lettuce eating lions, tigers and lambs in the Garden of Eden ended up being corrupted into the nature-red-in-tooth-and-claw that we know and love today.

The theory is that man is the first fruit of the redemption, and that from our redemption will follow all the other parts of creation, ultimately resulting in the lion resuming his lettuce eating habits, and sleeping alongside those baby baa lambs once again. We have Isaiah to thank for this pastorale.

Therefore the fall did not affect only mankind, but the whole of creation.

Interesting how you can form an opinion of one topic based on bible literality and at the same time believe that Genesis is myth. That's the dangers of a relativistic view of the bible.

 

[Catherineanne]

Interesting how you can form an opinion of one topic based on bible literality and at the same time believe that Genesis is myth. That's the dangers of a relativistic view of the bible.

I don't recall saying that I believe Genesis is myth. My preferred term would be allegory, if I had to choose one.

Literal or allegorical, the fall affects all of creation.

 

[Hentenza]

Literal or allegorical, the fall affects all of creation.

I don't agree.

 

[Catherineanne]

I don't agree.

I don't care.

Just for future reference, however:

http://creation.com/the-fall-a-cosmic-catastrophe

 

[Hespera]

Then you are negating a supernatural explanation of origins based on faith.

Huh. I sorta thought it took care of negating itself.

 

[Hentenza]

Huh. I sorta thought it took care of negating itself.

Since none of the theories regarding origins are falsifiable then how can it negate itself?

 

[Hespera]

The agent.

Magic is man attempting to control nature/the deity through spell, incantation, ritual etc. It is indeed the invoking by man of supernatural powers, and it is thoroughly unChristian.

Miracle is God acting in nature.

Anything Our Lord does is miracle, but not magic. Which is, admittedly, circular, but what can you do?

ok, I see how you figure it. Course, i dont believe there is anythng supernatural out there, so its all the same to ME.

 

[Catherineanne]

ok, I see how you figure it. Course, i dont believe there is anythng supernatural out there, so its all the same to ME.

Neither do I. If it is in creation, then it is natural.

If it is outside creation, I would not use the term supernatural, because that has all the wrong connotations. That which is outside creation is eternal, but not supernatural, imo.