Fun with the Flood math.

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

No, wrong again. The boiling point of the water is raised by the pressure that is there(there has to be enough pressure to raise the boiling point of the water to the tempature at that depth). If you release the pressure just to the point where the water cannot stay liquidfied and turns to steam it would seperate itself from the mineral which is heavier than steam and rise to the suface leaving the mineral behind. Here is a link that will give you a better idea of what I am talking about : http://www.thursdaysclassroom.com/13jul00/boil.html

I don't have much time but I'll some quick comments. The temperature is already well above the critical point of water which is 374 C. Above the critical point water is not liquid at any temperature. Thus it is not liquid water to begin with. If you release the water from magma it will still be at about 1000 C and have the heat content of water at 1000 C.   If if the water somehow comes out from massive cracks you have no way to put it back after it cooks the earth to death.

There are huge fault lines all around this earth that could open and and be big enough to flow the amount of water needed. Lets not forget the water canopy. That's about half the water needed right there. Half the water above(firmament above) and half the water below(firmament below). Not as much energy needed so not much heat produced

The vapor canopy was abandoned by most creationists long ago. You can't put any significant amount of water in the atmosphere below temperatures and pressures that would cook the earth to death before the flood. You can also calculate the heat produced by the falling water and as Arikay says it will get hot while falling. It must do this because of the conservation of energy. Its potential energy when above the "firmament" must be converted to kinetic energy and end up as heat as it falls so even if you have some magic way to put water above the firmament it will cook the earth to death when it falls unless you suspend the first law of thermodynamics.

The Frumious Bandesnatch

 

[PhantomLlama]

So creationists have two options:

1. Cook the Earth to death by producing enough water to cover Everest.
2. Cook the Earth to death by producing enough tectonic activity to raise the mountains in the post-flood world.

How do you want your dinosaurs fried?

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

PhantomLlama asked:

How do you want your dinosaurs fried?

Dinosaurs are not kosher (they neither chew the cud nor have split hooves); so I'll have to pass, but thank you for asking!

Be well!

ssv

"A one-l lama, he's a priest.
And a two-l llama, he's a beast.
And I will bet a silk pajama
that there's no such thing as a 3-l lllama."

Ogden Nash

 

[Smilin]

31st March 2003 at 05:54 PM Mechanical Bliss said this in Post #94




So how did the Earth's mountain ranges form in such a short time and why does this  model completely contradict everything we know about modern geology?

To add to this, how did those stalagtite, stalagmite cave formations we find 'within' those mountains form less than 6,000 years?

One particular cave and it's formation here has been estimated to be over 60,000,000 years old. That's based upon measured and observed growth rates of the formations within the cave. To say it's 6,000 years old, you have to come up with a dynamic model showing how everything formed in such a short period of time.

Good luck! If you succeed, you'll definately make history.

 

[Smilin]

1st April 2003 at 07:49 AM Frumious Bandersnatch said this in Post #101


The vapor canopy was abandoned by most creationists long ago. You can't put any significant amount of water in the atmosphere below temperatures and pressures that would cook the earth to death before the flood. You can also calculate the heat produced by the falling water and as Arikay says it will get hot while falling. It must do this because of the conservation of energy. Its potential energy when above the "firmament" must be converted to kinetic energy and end up as heat as it falls so even if you have some magic way to put water above the firmament it will cook the earth to death when it falls unless you suspend the first law of thermodynamics.

The Frumious Bandesnatch

To add to this, you can't put that much water into the atmoshpere PERIOD. I did the calculations about a year ago and will dig them back up if anyone's interested. Given the specific density of water, enough water vapor within the atmosphere to cover the entire Earth would crush everything beneath it.

 

[ikester7579]

1st April 2003 at 03:35 AM Arikay said this in Post #97

Im not sure your understanding things correctly.

The water isnt held in the mineral like you are thinking. The mineral would need to be converted to magma (lava like stuff, just trying to get my terms right ) and the water to steam for the water to escape.

Converting the mineral to magma? If your looking for heat to turn the water to steam here's where you get it. I bring this paragraph from another web page:

But researchers can't dig down into the mantle to see what's happening there, so they have to rely on secondary tools. One way of working out which minerals may lurk deep inside the Earth is to take common upper-mantle rocks and squeeze and heat them until they reach the temperatures and pressures found inside the Earth.

That's how wadsleyite was made back in the 1960s. But the early researchers started out with dry olivine, so they ended up with dry wadsleyite. Smyth's breakthrough was to discover that even though wadsleyite only exists at temperatures well above 1000 ºC, it can still hold water.

At the same time, researchers were investigating whether other minerals under intense pressures and temperatures could hold water. One group of minerals being tested had first been created in the mid-1960s by Ted Ringwood and Alan Major at the Australian National University in Canberra. The minerals, dubbed phases A, B and C, had been synthesised in anhydrous conditions. Then, in 1987, Lin-Gun Liu and Ringwood not only found that phase C could hold water, but also synthesised a new mineral, christened phase D, which could also store water under the immense pressures and temperatures of the mantle.

Suddenly, there was somewhere to put water deep inside the mantle. "You can have oceans and oceans of water stored in the transition zone," says Jay Bass of the University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign. "It's sopping wet stuff." Researchers think wadsleyite can hold as much as 3·3 per cent water by weight. It may not sound like much, but there could be an awful lot of wadsleyite.

According to Smyth, models of the mantle's composition suggest that at the depths where wadsleyite is stable, between half and three-quarters of the material is the right stuff for making this mineral. "If the region between 400 and 525 kilometres were, say, 60 per cent wadsleyite, and that phase was saturated at 3·3 weight per cent, that's ten oceans of water," says Smyth. But Dan Frost, an experimental petrologist at the Carnegie Institution of Washington's Geophysical Laboratory in Washington DC, thinks the mantle could contain even more water.

Frost says that solidified lava that has erupted at mid-ocean ridges contains glass that can be analysed for water content. His research team has calculated how much water the lava's parent material in the mantle must have contained. "It ends up being between 100 and 500 parts per million," he says. And if the whole mantle contained 500 parts per million of water, Frost calculates that would be the equivalent of 30 oceans of water.

And here's the link if you want to read the whole article: http://www.ldolphin.org/deepwaters.html

No, I dont know how it would get back there, and No I dont know how it got there. However saying that it would some how just get put back, is not science, its an assumption.

Friction from water against water, and water against air, and air against air and on and on.
See to move that much water, or mineral, it would require A Lot of energy. The energy would also disapate heat, and so you get super hot water and a super hot earth.

 

[ikester7579]

1st April 2003 at 11:23 AM Smilin said this in Post #105



To add to this, you can't put that much water into the atmoshpere PERIOD. I did the calculations about a year ago and will dig them back up if anyone's interested. Given the specific density of water, enough water vapor within the atmosphere to cover the entire Earth would crush everything beneath it.

Let's put that theory to a test. Take a ball and tie a string to it. When you start to go around in a circle holding the string the ball will extend to the end of that string and stay suspended in air as long as you keep going in circles. This is the same princible that keeps the satalites in orbit. And was the reason the water canopy stayed in place and did not crush everything beneath it. It is the spinning motion of the earth and the object(water or satalite) that keeps things suspended.

 

[ikester7579]

1st April 2003 at 07:49 AM Frumious Bandersnatch said this in Post #101



I don't have much time but I'll some quick comments. The temperature is already well above the critical point of water which is 374 C. Above the critical point water is not liquid at any temperature. Thus it is not liquid water to begin with. If you release the water from magma it will still be at about 1000 C and have the heat content of water at 1000 C.   If if the water somehow comes out from massive cracks you have no way to put it back after it cooks the earth to death.

I guess no one here understands that when you put water under pressure it raises the boiling point of it. If water can't boil it can't produce steam. Does your car have a radiator cap on it? Each radiator cap has a pressure rating which is produced by the spring on the bottom side of the cap. The rating of pressure produced by the cap is printed on the top of cap. This extra pressure that is produced inside of the radiator because of this cap raises the boiling point of the water and antifreeze in your car by an average of 10-20 degrees. Now with the "EXTREME" pressure that is well beneath the earth where this mineral and water is, what would be the boiling point of it? How high does this extreme pressure raise the boiling point of the water there?

The vapor canopy was abandoned by most creationists long ago. You can't put any significant amount of water in the atmosphere below temperatures and pressures that would cook the earth to death before the flood. You can also calculate the heat produced by the falling water and as Arikay says it will get hot while falling. It must do this because of the conservation of energy. Its potential energy when above the "firmament" must be converted to kinetic energy and end up as heat as it falls so even if you have some magic way to put water above the firmament it will cook the earth to death when it falls unless you suspend the first law of thermodynamics.

The Frumious Bandesnatch

Vapor canopy? Water canopy. And about getting hot while falling, guess I'd better not go out in the rain, I might get burnt by it.

When the fountains of the deep where broken up, I believe that it shook the earth so that the spin of the earth slowed up some what for a short period of time. And much like the ball and string spoke of earlier, if you don't keep the motion that is required to keep things suspended or in orbit they come down. I believe this is what happened to bring the water canopy down.

 

[Arikay]

Interesting information Ikester but it still means that you must bring up quite a bit of magma. It also doesnt solve the problem that the addition of that much falling water would create.

The amount of energy it would take to move 3X the amount of water on earth, would probably give off enough energy to cook the earth alive.

 

[ikester7579]

1st April 2003 at 11:20 AM Smilin said this in Post #104



To add to this, how did those stalagtite, stalagmite cave formations we find 'within' those mountains form less than 6,000 years?

One particular cave and it's formation here has been estimated to be over 60,000,000 years old. That's based upon measured and observed growth rates of the formations within the cave. To say it's 6,000 years old, you have to come up with a dynamic model showing how everything formed in such a short period of time.

Good luck! If you succeed, you'll definately make history.

The atmophere, barametric pressure, and magnetic feild were different back then. This has been proven by pockets of air that have been trap in rock and examined for it's content. There was twice as much oxygen and carbon dioxide content and the air pressure in this pocket was twice what we have now. Several pockets like this have been examined with the same conclusion.

Being that the surroundings were different can effect the growth or formation of things. This was not factored in. Even evolution admits things were different back then.

 

[ikester7579]

2nd April 2003 at 04:42 AM Arikay said this in Post #109

Interesting information Ikester but it still means that you must bring up quite a bit of magma. It also doesnt solve the problem that the addition of that much falling water would create.

The amount of energy it would take to move 3X the amount of water on earth, would probably give off enough energy to cook the earth alive.

Thermodynamics also speak of speed. You need speed and resistance to cause friction that is needed. How fast does rain fall? Is there enough speed to cause enough friction to make what you say happen? How fast does a rock from space fall? It falls fast enough to burn up because it has more weight and has the momentum of being pulled through space(which has no resistance) by our earth's gravity. The water did not travel in this manner so it did not gain the momentum required by thermodynamics to get that "hot" to "boil the earth". The speed required to cause this heat that would boil the earth would have to be around the speed of sound or faster. I have yet to see rain fall that fast.

 

[ikester7579]

Another example is our stealth spy plane. It travels at very high altitudes and at very high speeds(better than mach 6). When this plane lands it is so hot that it takes an hour to cool it's outer shell. The pilot has to stay in the craft for that time. Also a very special fuel is burnt in the jet engines that fly at that altitude. Dual tanks with two different fuels are used for this. The plane gets this hot because of SPEED and RESISTANCE! I see neither in your boil the earth theory.

 

Then there are hurricanes. With all the water and thermeldynamics going on in it, it should get hot. But it don't.

 

[Arikay]

Ikester, I think you are still thinking too small. Remember we are talking about 3 times the water on earth falling. Not some small little class 5 huricane.

Im confused, the water must fall as rain, yet it doesnt move fast?

 

[ikester7579]

2nd April 2003 at 04:25 AM ikester7579 said this in Post #108 

When the fountains of the deep where broken up, I believe that it shook the earth so that the spin of the earth slowed up some what for a short period of time. And much like the ball and string spoke of earlier, if you don't keep the motion that is required to keep things suspended or in orbit they come down. I believe this is what happened to bring the water canopy down.

I quote myself to finish this with an example and an experiment you can do yourself.

The earth stays in a perfect balance because of its liquid core. Ex: I work for a company that used to make these things called perma balancers. They were round in shape with a inner tube like thing the edge. They fit behind the tire of your car. When you reached a speed of 5 mph or higher it would balance your tires. How it work was the inner tube looking thing was filled with liquid that was of a certain viscosity. Inside this liquid was several metal ball like bbs(around 10). When you started to move your car and your tires spin, these metal balls would move around and go to where needed to balance each tire. Much like the earth with its moving magma and spinning motion. The magma being solid enough to move where needed to balance the earth to keep it spinning at an certain speed.

Now when the fountains of the deep were broken up and water and some magma came out, the balance of the earth was messed up so it's spin was slowed down which brought down the water canopy. Much like your washing machine does on spin cycle when not in balance. It won't get up to speed to spin. Just goes thump thump until you move some stuff around.

Now for the experiment: If you have an electric fan. Put it on slow speed and get a good feel for how fast the blades are moving. Turn off the fan and pick a blade and put a couple of paper clips on it. turn it back on slow and see how much slower the blades turn. Why? Because it is no longer in balance. Take the paper clips off and speed turns back to normal. The reason I say slow speed is because at a faster speed it may sling off the paper clips. If you think the weight the paper clips slowed it down and not the balance you can do another experiment to see for your self. For this to work all paper clips have to be the same. Put them on all four blades. Now the blades are balanced because they all have the same weight and the fan will turn faster than it did with the two paper clips. Proving the point of off balance effecting the speed of the spin of things. Including the earth.

 

[Arikay]

Its a very interesting hypothesis.

Is there any evidence to support the hypothesis?

 

[ikester7579]

2nd April 2003 at 05:28 AM Arikay said this in Post #113

Ikester, I think you are still thinking too small. Remember we are talking about 3 times the water on earth falling. Not some small little class 5 huricane.

Im confused, the water must fall as rain, yet it doesnt move fast?

The water from the canopy came down over a forty day period, not all at once. And it came down as rain because there is a lot of air between where the canopy was and where the water fell to. So I give you another example. I used to pressure clean houses for a living with my dad who owned the bussiness. Now we had machines that pushed 1500 psi through a small hole at the end of the spray gun. You would think with all that friction the tip of the spray gun would get hot, but it don't. They now have water being pushed through spray guns with enough pressure to cut steal. And again they do not get hot. The water that comes out with all that force does not get hot either.

So if your gonna say this water got so hot to boil the earth. Then show me where an experiment was done to prove this boil the earth theory. Or is this an assumption?

 

[ikester7579]

2nd April 2003 at 06:06 AM Arikay said this in Post #115

Its a very interesting hypothesis.

Is there any evidence to support the hypothesis?

Yes, Your here right. If the earth was out of balance all the time we would be shook to death. Being that the earth spins at about 1000 mph. Instead of your washing machine going thump thump, we would be going thump thump on the surface of the earth. The earth is always changing, the tides always moving. If we did not have this balance thing going, I think it would be one big headache to live here.

 

[ikester7579]

2nd April 2003 at 05:28 AM Arikay said this in Post #113

Ikester, I think you are still thinking too small. Remember we are talking about 3 times the water on earth falling. Not some small little class 5 huricane.

Im confused, the water must fall as rain, yet it doesnt move fast?

If it moved so fast. How fast? Can you give me a figure? One that the resistance of air plus air pressure which adds to resistance(remember the barometric pressure was twice as much back then, which means more resistance to speed).

 

[Arikay]

That we are here isnt evidence that the theory is right.

I dont know how fast, but if you go to the first post in the thread you can see how much water was added to the earth per second.

I think you are still thinking too small. Remember, this is a catostrophic event that added three times the amount of water we have on earth in only 40 days.

Why was the barometric pressure higher back then?

 

[Arikay]

Add on: If I did the math right, Around 306,147,198,884,132.6 Gallons of water had to fall on the earth every second for 40 days.
Thats aprox 173,935,192,421.5 Tons of water a second.