Fullness of the Gentiles

[thesunisout]

Yes, I know, those "gentiles" had been grafted in already- as Paul stated.

But I disagree with you on the small elect remnant of Israel - which I stated would be grafted in by God before the destruction of the harlot city.

Your mistake is that Israel wasn't "partially hardened" in the sense that they were on the fence or 50% hardened.

The meaning of the text (consulting the O.T.) also, is that God hardened most of national Israel from old- & they would remain forever hardened.

The "part" of Israel that God didn't harden was His elect remnant of Jewish believers.

Romans 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Romans 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
Romans 11:27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

The text clearly separates jew and gentile, because Paul is contrasting them to one another. When it says all Israel will be saved, it isn't referring to us, because the context of the prior verse tells us it is referring to the jews.

There has been no recognition among jews of Jesus being the messiah so verse 26 and 27 is still future. This is not including the evidence I gave which indicates what Jesus was talking about and what Paul was talking about is the same thing.

Israel is also part of the end times, as we see in Revelation. According to prophecy there must be a third temple which has not yet been built in which the Antichrist will visit and declare himself to be God. The reformation of Israel in the 20th century is a fulfillment of prophecy and it is only now that these events have the possibility of happening. God has kept the jews for Himself and will restore them in these last days.

 

[Anto9us]

they ALL didn't obtain election, but the remnant obtained it

the ALL in "all Israel will be saved" HAS to be qualified somehow

it doesn't mean every Jew who ever lived, does it?

can it mean all predestined to be the remnant prior to judgement falling on Jerusalem in 70 AD?

 

[Time Watcher]

"the ALL in "all Israel will be saved" HAS to be qualified somehow"


It is qualified

Of those living during the coming 70th week decreed for Israel, only 1/3 of the nation will turn and believe in Jesus Christ ....the balance will be killed in unbelief and not saved [Zechariah 13:8-9]

All of believing Israel will be saved at the time

Those martyred during the tribulation will be made immortal at the end of the 70th week .... and those who survive as mortals will enter the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth

 

[coraline]

they ALL didn't obtain election, but the remnant obtained it

the ALL in "all Israel will be saved" HAS to be qualified somehow

it doesn't mean every Jew who ever lived, does it?

can it mean all predestined to be the remnant prior to judgement falling on Jerusalem in 70 AD?

Yes, that's what is means in the Bible.

That's what Paul wrote in Romans 11. Of all the factions of Jews in Israel in the first century, (Essenes, Pharisees, Scribes, Sadduccees, God had only a small remnant of Israel that remained faithful/ & or would repent to His Holy One. (Christ)

We are not speaking about useless genealogies of Jews for throughout millenniums. All Jewish genealogical records were destroyed with Herod's temple in AD70.

There is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ since the first century AD.

Paul to Titus,

Titus 3:9:
9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

 

[coraline]

Romans 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Romans 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
Romans 11:27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

The text clearly separates jew and gentile, because Paul is contrasting them to one another. When it says all Israel will be saved, it isn't referring to us, because the context of the prior verse tells us it is referring to the jews.

There has been no recognition among jews of Jesus being the messiah so verse 26 and 27 is still future. This is not including the evidence I gave which indicates what Jesus was talking about and what Paul was talking about is the same thing.

Israel is also part of the end times, as we see in Revelation. According to prophecy there must be a third temple which has not yet been built in which the Antichrist will visit and declare himself to be God. The reformation of Israel in the 20th century is a fulfillment of prophecy and it is only now that these events have the possibility of happening. God has kept the jews for Himself and will restore them in these last days.

Actually, end times was ALL about Israel! But that doesn't mean that God didn't prophecy the Light to come to the Gentiles too!

First to the Jew, then the Gentile.

The end of the Jewish dispensation was in God's Plan from old. The harlot (Babylon) of Israel would perish in the Jewish/Roman war for rejecting and crucifying their Messiah & not repenting.

Note: this book was written to Hebrews, not Gentiles! We're just supossed to learn from scripture, etc,

Hebrews 1, NKJV _ (Remember the principle of proper Biblical hermeneutics- ie: audience relevance)

God’s Supreme Revelation

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
(all emph. mine)

 

[thesunisout]

Actually, end times was ALL about Israel! But that doesn't mean that God didn't prophecy the Light to come to the Gentiles too!

First to the Jew, then the Gentile.

The end of the Jewish dispensation was in God's Plan from old. The harlot (Babylon) of Israel would perish in the Jewish/Roman war for rejecting and crucifying their Messiah & not repenting.

Note: this book was written to Hebrews, not Gentiles! We're just supossed to learn from scripture, etc,

Hebrews 1, NKJV _ (Remember the principle of proper Biblical hermeneutics- ie: audience relevance)

God’s Supreme Revelation

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
(all emph. mine)

The Jews have not been permanently cut off; the restoration of the nation of Israel proves that. They will be grafted back in during the tribulation.

 

[parousia70]

The Jews have not been permanently cut off; the restoration of the nation of Israel proves that. They will be grafted back in during the tribulation.

But The "National Israel" you speak of is a Multi-Ethnic Secular Democracy made up of Arabs, Europeans, Africans, Americans, Slavics, Asians, etc... It's not a "restoration" of the pre desolation Hebrew Theocracy by ANY stretch.

 

[parousia70]

Yes, that's what is means in the Bible.

That's what Paul wrote in Romans 11. Of all the factions of Jews in Israel in the first century, (Essenes, Pharisees, Scribes, Sadduccees, God had only a small remnant of Israel that remained faithful/ & or would repent to His Holy One. (Christ)

Indeed. The Nazarene sect was the ONLY surviving sect of Judaism to make it out of AD70 intact. They were the Remnant that Paul speaks of here:
Romans 11:5
Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

They, with the Gentiles grafted in, in FULLNESS, went on to expand that Remnant Judaism across the Globe under the name of Christianity.
Christianity is remnant, believing Judaism - gone global.

 

[ebedmelech]

Replacement theologists need to consider Paul's revealed warning and take it seriously

We do. We don't say Israel was replaced...we simply say it like Paul says it..."They are NOT all Israel that are descended from Israel"....

 

[coraline]

The Jews should not have to suffer at the hands of the Romans either... Yet that destruction was the result of natural cause and effect between two nations at war ..well Israel rebelled against the Roman Empire which desired to rule the world...nothing wrong with the desire to fight for your life... Yet Israel destruction came because the enemy was simply stronger

In the future without gods help..we all are doomed against rising forces desire for power

"Natural cause and effect?!!!" Friend, you don't know your Bible.

God, who is Supreme and "supernatural used the Roman army to execute His wrath/vengeance upon Jerusalem!

I'll just give 1 example among many.

Luke 21:20-22,

The Destruction of Jerusalem

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

"this people" in verse 23 meant the Jews. Luke was a Macedonian (Greek/Gentile believer)

But the times of the "Gentiles are fulfilled" meant the heathen Romans who would surround the city for 42 months. (Rev.11)

If you read about the war of the Jews with the Romans in the first century - you will learn that that was their Biblical holocaust. (Great tribulation)

 

[Anto9us]

It seems natl Israel HAD THEIR SHOT

a remnant obtained election

individual Jews can get saved like everrboddy else - from 70 AD thruout the everlasting kingdom which has no end

whosoever will from here on out

 

[dfw69]

"Natural cause and effect?!!!" Friend, you don't know your Bible.

God, who is Supreme and "supernatural used the Roman army to execute His wrath/vengeance upon Jerusalem!

I'll just give 1 example among many.

Luke 21:20-22,

The Destruction of Jerusalem

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

"this people" in verse 23 meant the Jews. Luke was a Macedonian (Greek/Gentile believer)

But the times of the "Gentiles are fulfilled" meant the heathen Romans who would surround the city for 42 months. (Rev.11)

If you read about the war of the Jews with the Romans in the first century - you will learn that that was their Biblical holocaust. (Great tribulation)

Yeah I know... My bible is still teaching me daily.. Especially when forgetfulness sets in from time to time

Whose vengeance ? Gods?... It does not say that in Luke... So whose days of vengeance ?

I doubt god caused Rome to destroy Israel ... Only that he did not intervene .. I guess it's gods fault Israel fell... Not

Satan destroyed Israel in 70 ad

The time of the Gentiles still continue... Muslims for the moment..but Gentiles continue to rise against her ... Until Jesus puts an end of it ... When he returns


And that's a sign for Israel..that nations will rise up to scatter her..up until her king messiah puts an end to nations troubling her

 

[bibletruth469]

Fullness is the Opposite of Fall, and not a numeric value. Separation Theologists need to take this clear teaching of Paul's seriously. The EVERLASTING Gospel, which SOLE PURPOSE FOR EXISTENCE is to call sinners to salvation is, well, EVERLASTING. It has no expiration date. Those who call for an end to the purpose of the EVERLASTING Gospel will be disappointed. The notion that once the "last gentile" converts to Christianity the Gospel ceases to serve it's everlasting purpose is completely foreign to Christ and the Apostles. Fullness is the opposite of Fall, not a numeric value. Without Question.

This verse rom 11:25 is contrasting Israel and the Gentiles . The fullness of the Gentiles in this verse refers to a number count not a date or period of time as shown in Luke 21:24 which encompasses the time of the Babylonian captivity up to the rapture of the church.

The fulness of the Gentiles in rom 11 is about salvation just like you mention above. However , I believe that only God knows when the church age will be over ; when the last gentile to be saved for this period of time will end the church age. However , salvation will still be available after the rapture of the church, but I think it will become more difficult to become saved during the tribulation period. There will be great deception and many will be deceived and will believe a lie and will not find the truth. But God will still make salvation possible by the means of the 2 witnesses and the 144,000 during the tribulation period .

We have to remember that it says in verse 26 that all Israel will be saved. This is the ultimate salvation of the new covenant and will be realized when Christ returns to earth to set up His kingdom. The Jews living at that time will come to true faith and will finally realize that Jesus is the messiah . God has an unconditional covenant with Israel that will not ever be broken. They may break it, but God never will break His promises.

God has only set aside Israel temporarily until this time period of the fulness of the Gentiles has come. Because the Jews rejected Jesus as the messiah at the cross, God has turned his focus now onto the gentile believers in this past 2000 plus years. Then once the believing Gentiles ( church believers) are removed at the rapture, God will then turn His focus back on the nation of Israel .

 

[coraline]

Yeah I know... My bible is still teaching me daily.. Especially when forgetfulness sets in from time to time

Whose vengeance ? Gods?... It does not say that in Luke... So whose days of vengeance ?

I doubt god caused Rome to destroy Israel ... Only that he did not intervene .. I guess it's gods fault Israel fell... Not

Satan destroyed Israel in 70 ad

The time of the Gentiles still continue... Muslims for the moment..but Gentiles continue to rise against her ... Until Jesus puts an end of it ... When he returns


And that's a sign for Israel..that nations will rise up to scatter her..up until her king messiah puts an end to nations troubling her

Why am I only seeing your opinions & not Bible exegesis?

Let me add another for you to mediate on- whether God or cause and effect just happened to the Jews.

Zechariah 13:
The Shepherd Savior

7 “Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
Against the Man who is My Companion,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
“Strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep will be scattered;
Then I will turn My hand against the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one–third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one–third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”


Does that bear any prophetic connection to Malachi 4 ?
Meditate on it for awhile.

 

[Interplanner]

If you think Rom 11's 'fulness of the Gentiles' solves this, you're mistaken. 'kai houtos' means 'in this manner'--with Israel always partly hardened. Meaning: it will be like that til the end of time. Nothing is resolved on this in history; only in the Christ event, as the passage says: God has bound all in sin, and had mercy on all in Christ. there is nothing else to do in Israel. There is nothing to focus on Israel about that God has not accomplished in Christ Jesus.

"All Israel" is those who have faith. He'd been explaining that since ch 9. Neither people group will be all totally saved.

 

[dfw69]

Why am I only seeing your opinions & not Bible exegesis?

Let me add another for you to mediate on- whether God or cause and effect just happened to the Jews.

Zechariah 13:
The Shepherd Savior

7 “Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
Against the Man who is My Companion,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
“Strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep will be scattered;
Then I will turn My hand against the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one–third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one–third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”


Does that bear any prophetic connection to Malachi 4 ?
Meditate on it for awhile.

We disagree

Vrs7 is fulfilled... God turns his hand from helping Israel

Vrs8 and 9 is unfulfilled and will be fulfilled in the last days

Mal 4 is also unfulfilled and will be fulfilled when Elijah shows up

God bringing anyone through the fire is cause and effect of natural occurring events... God only allows the nations to rule us...until he intervenes

Remember when satan offered the kingdoms of the world to Jesus ?...he is the prince and power of the air... Yet one day the kingdoms of this world will belong to Jesus and he will rule them ... Not from heaven , but from earth.. This is why he returns ... To rule

 

[Steve Petersen]

Fullness of the nations is actually found in Joseph's prophecy over his two sons as he was about to die in Egypt. In some way this is tied to Ephraim who will be 'melo ha goyim', literally 'fullness of the gentiles.'(Genesis 48:19)

Paul is making an analogy indirectly here. Just not sure how it all fits.

 

[thesunisout]

But The "National Israel" you speak of is a Multi-Ethnic Secular Democracy made up of Arabs, Europeans, Africans, Americans, Slavics, Asians, etc... It's not a "restoration" of the pre desolation Hebrew Theocracy by ANY stretch.

Only the hand of God could have restored Israel. God is perfectly capable of preserving His people, genealogy or no, and He promised to gather them back together from every nation and reform Israel. The restoration of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy. God has also acted miraculously on their behalf to defend them, such as in the 6 day war. How can you miss what God has done for Israel?

If you don't think they are Jews, where are the Jews? Who is going to build the third temple?

Romans 11:28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[Interplanner]

The election and "belovedness" were met or fulfilled in what he said: that they could now obtain mercy in the Gospel. There is nothing there about the land in 1948 (it was prob the early 50s of the 1st cent. when this was written). You have been lead to believe that the land is there, but what does the context say is the election and the blessing. Huge question.

The creation of modern Israel was pretty much a UN type effort, and last I checked, Bible-following believers were not too keen on that.

But where we really must slow you down is "genealogy or no" OR NO??? Wait just a second, there is no other issue if not genealogical. There is an Israel that Paul talks about that has nothing to do with genealogy, and there is an Israel that futurism, Judaism and D'ism talk about which must be.

For ex., the expression "all Israel" presents an anachronistic problem in itself. If that "all" is all genealogical Jews, then unbelief does not matter (Annas the high priest was Jewish and requested execution). Also if "all Israel" is future, then the past who are not saved are either not past or not Israel, and we know they are past. So there are qualifications to these things, and we have to keep them. We have to go back to Rom 9:6 and see what he means.

 

[coraline]

Only the hand of God could have restored Israel. God is perfectly capable of preserving His people, genealogy or no, and He promised to gather them back together from every nation and reform Israel. The restoration of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy. God has also acted miraculously on their behalf to defend them, such as in the 6 day war. How can you miss what God has done for Israel?

If you don't think they are Jews, where are the Jews? Who is going to build the third temple?

Romans 11:28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

God did save the elect remnant of Israel (Jacob)before He had the Romans destroy Jerusalem,

The key to understanding this is that "not all of Israel was Israel" in Romans 9. Jacob God loved, but Esau He hated.

Isaiah 65
The Righteousness of God’s Judgment

65 “I was sought by those who did not ask for Me;(gentiles)
I was found by those who did not seek Me.
I said, ‘Here I am, here I am,’
To a nation that was not called by My name.
2 I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, (Israel)
Who walk in a way that is not good,
According to their own thoughts;
3 A people who provoke Me to anger continually to My face;
Who sacrifice in gardens,
And burn incense on altars of brick;
4 Who sit among the graves,
And spend the night in the tombs;
Who eat swine’s flesh,
And the broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
5 Who say, ‘Keep to yourself,
Do not come near me,
For I am holier than you!’
These are smoke in My nostrils,
A fire that burns all the day.

6 “Behold, it is written before Me:
I will not keep silence, but will repay—
Even repay into their bosom—
7 Your iniquities and the iniquities of your fathers together,”
Says the Lord,
“Who have burned incense on the mountains
And blasphemed Me on the hills;
Therefore I will measure their former work into their bosom.”

8 Thus says the Lord:
“As the new wine is found in the cluster,
And one says, ‘Do not destroy it,
For a blessing is in it,’
So will I do for My servants’ sake,
That I may not destroy them all.
9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
And from Judah an heir of My mountains;
My elect shall inherit it,
And My servants shall dwell there.
10 Sharon shall be a fold of flocks,
And the Valley of Achor a place for herds to lie down,
For My people who have sought Me.

11 “But you are those who forsake the Lord,
Who forget My holy mountain,
Who prepare a table for Gad,[a]
And who furnish a drink offering for Meni.[b]
12 Therefore I will number you for the sword,
And you shall all bow down to the slaughter;
Because, when I called, you did not answer;
When I spoke, you did not hear,
But did evil before My eyes,
And chose that in which I do not delight.”

13 Therefore thus says the Lord God:
“Behold, My servants shall eat,
But you shall be hungry;
Behold, My servants shall drink,
But you shall be thirsty;
Behold, My servants shall rejoice,
But you shall be ashamed;
14 Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart,
But you shall cry for sorrow of heart,
And wail for grief of spirit.
15 You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen;
For the Lord God will slay you,
And call His servants by another name;
16 So that he who blesses himself in the earth
Shall bless himself in the God of truth;
And he who swears in the earth
Shall swear by the God of truth;
Because the former troubles are forgotten,
And because they are hidden from My eyes.

The Glorious New Creation

17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; (the New Jerusalem)
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.

20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord,
And their offspring with them.

24 “It shall come to pass
That before they call, I will answer;
And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,”
Says the Lord.
(emph. mine)

God describes the spiritual state in New Jerusalem (unlike the old fleshly one) as peaceful metaphor in all His holy mountain.