Full Preterists - Mt 24:21

happyinhisgrace · Feb 6, 2004

GodsWatchman said:
I used to be an 'engager' as you are now. But I am no longer. I guess that is something that is personal between you and God. As for me - I do not feel that God desires that I get engaged with "the world" like this. If Gods put it before me - He will make it known. I will instead pray for others needs and their salvations.

We will homebirth. Its very common around here (AZ & UT) ... a large percentage home birth with midwives. OBGYN? neah - JESUS instead

Wow, I wish your wife the best in the home birthing. If I had gone that route I would have died with the first one. I hope that things go well for her....

Grace

parousia70 · Feb 6, 2004

GodsWatchman said:
If we SEEK the ambulence, the paramedic or the Dr. BEFORE we seek God - Thats a clear sin. God wants us to seek Him 1st and foremost.

Ok, I'm learning more about your view.

It seemed at first that you were advocating total avoidance of modern medical facilites/facilitators, but now It appears you do allow for some level of it, as long as God is sought first, It's OK to go to the doctor.

I have no argument with that.

You still, it would appear, advocate complete removal of the Christian from involvement with or promotion of Civil or governmental authorities.

or in this do you also allow some level of involvement, as long as God is sought first?

parousia70 · Feb 6, 2004

disciple00 said:
Parousia,

Being involved in passing legislation is struggling against flesh and blood. Honor the king, you don´t have to campaign for the king. What legislation are you talking about anyway, it sounds like you are trying to be specfic without saying WELFARE.

Well, I was really thinking more along the lines of the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act).

You know, the Law that requires, among other things, that Business owners who supply a restroom for their patrons insulate the pipes under the wall mounted sinks so that people in wheelchairs who can't feel their legs don't get schorched by hot water pipes when they roll up to wash their hands.

Why not give your possesions to the poor instead of legislating another group to do Gods work for you.

I suppose I could pick my favorite restaurant and hang out in the mens room and wrap the hot pipes myself before each individual chairbound patron I see washes His hands, but I sure could help a lot more of them by seeing that legislation was passed to require all pipes in the country be insulated.(especially since legislation covers womens restrooms too, an area I can not stand around in myself)

Sounds like you are against the ADA?

I can't help but see working for such legislation as a logical extension of, among others, the following scriptural commands:

Romans 13: 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

Titus 3:1

Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work,

1 Peter 2: 12-17

12 having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation. 13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme, 14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men-- 16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. 17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

These passages are packed full of the promotion of civil government.

If Jesus was literally here in the flesh today (though he has NEVER left in spirit)

So His Body left his spirit behind?

Where do you say His spiritless body is now?

Jesus promised that we would do the same works and greater IF we believed on HIM. Tell me exactly how you "interpet" this verse and others that leave no room for doubts and excuses.

How many people did Jesus personally reach with the gospel during his earthly ministry?

disciple00 · Feb 6, 2004

parousia70 said:
Well, I was really thinking more along the lines of the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act).

You know, the Law that requires, among other things, that Business owners who supply a restroom for their patrons insulate the pipes under the wall mounted sinks so that people in wheelchairs who can't feel their legs don't get schorched by hot water pipes.

I suppose I could pick my favorite restaurant and hang out in the mens room and wrap the hot pipes myself before each individual chairbound patron I see washes His hands, but I sure could help a lot more of them by seeing that legislation was passed to require all pipes in the country be insulated.(especially since legislation covers womens restrooms too, an area I can not stand around in myself)

Sounds like you are against the ADA?

Obviously you are sensitive about the ADA, however I did not mention anything about it in my post. Just as I thought your description of the ADA sounded like welfare, you thought my description of welfare was against the ADA. Am I confused here? I dont think its right burn anyones legs whether they can feel them or not. But thats not really what your asking, you want to know if I support Government intervention to help or protect others. Relating my views on the ADA would cause a political debate, which I do not think is appropiate for this thread, so I will refraine. But I will answer the scriptures you´ve brought up.

I can't help but see such legislation as a logical extension of the following scriptural commands:

I am as sensitive about "logical extensions" to scripture as you are about handicap persons legs being burned by scorching pipes. Religion has taken so many liberties to over extend scripture, look at the Catholic Church. The mother of Jesus now extended to an intercessor for our sins. Confessing our sins one to another extended to confessing sins to a priest who decides the cost of forgiveness and on and on and on.

Romans 13: 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

in these verses we are commanded to: be subject to the governing authorities, DO WHAT IS GOOD, Render tribute, customs, fear and honor to whom they are due. Your "logical extention" of doing good is forcing others to do good. How exactly is that logical?

Titus 3:1

Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work,

Our good work is obeying the commandments of Christ (through faith) and against such there IS NO LAW. Why do we submit to the authorities that be? The same reason slaves are to submit to there masters "Eph 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; 6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;" It is for Christs sake that we submit, because HE ordained the powers that be.

1 Peter 2: 12-17

12 having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation. 13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme, 14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men-- 16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. 17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

OBSERVE our good works, no be forced to do our good works. We are the LIGHT of the world, not the WHIP of the world. "the powers that be" are separate from believers, because believers don´t want earthly power, because our kingdom is NOT of this earth. "the powers that be" are servants of God just like Nebuchadnezzar, but that doesn´t make them saved believers. They are described as Hammers and Clubs in the old testament, they are just tools designed for God´s purpose (just as all things are designed for his purpose).

So His Body left his spirit behind?

Where do you say His spiritless body is now?

You are either misunderstanding what I said or I said it incorrectly. We are given the spirit/mind of Christ when we become a new creation. That´s what it means by Christ abiding in us. Our abiding in him is a symbolic usage of His Body the church. Christ ascended 2000 years ago.

How many people did Jesus personally reach with the gospel during his earthly ministry?

I think I missed something here. Is this an answer to my question? How can I answer your question when the scriptures do not say HOW MANY.

Justme · Feb 6, 2004

Hi Godswatchman,

I have just got out of hospital today and read back thru this thread. This is the second time in a month I have had a trip thru the Intensive Care Unit. It is three times this month that God has miraculously saved my life, He did it thru the sure hands of my physicians.

I saw this stuff about your pregnant wife and how it would be a home birth, etc, etc.

So being I had to talk to God anyway I just thiought I'd mention you in the conversation. So I'm talking to God, and of course, you know how God is, He carries on with the small talk, just being nice before He let's you get to the meat of the whole thing. So I thanked Him for postponing my dirt nap again and then we talked about you. Then God and I agreed that it would come to pass that at the time of your wife's delivery He would transfer all of your wifes pain to you. Let me know howyou make out!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Justme

GodsWatchman · Feb 6, 2004

disciple00 said:
OBSERVE our good works, no be forced to do our good works. We are the LIGHT of the world, not the WHIP of the world. "the powers that be" are separate from believers, because believers don´t want earthly power, because our kingdom is NOT of this earth. "the powers that be" are servants of God just like Nebuchadnezzar, but that doesn´t make them saved believers. They are described as Hammers and Clubs in the old testament, they are just tools designed for God´s purpose (just as all things are designed for his purpose).

These are most excellent words here. Satan is Gods 'tool' for aligning and teaching His children. The things around us are to build us and pefect us in Christ.

The Lord is in control of EVERYTHING.
Paul even delivered one to the destruction of his flesh for the salvation of his soul! Using the Devil as the "tool" of God -
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2Pe 2:12 But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed ...

All that are not Born from Above are but "brute beasts" or Beasts of the earth as:

Ec 3:18 I said in my heart, It is because of the sons of men, that God may prove them, and that they may see that they themselves are but as beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; and man hath no preeminence above the beasts: for all is vanity.

There are only TWO in the field (the world) - One is the beast - the other is the man from above. God controls them both. God uses the Beast to form the man into Christ.

Ro 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Ex.4:21 And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest back into Egypt, see that thou do before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in thy hand: but I will harden his heart and he will not let the people go.

Ex.7:3 And I will harden Pharaohs heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Jer*17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

La 3:37 Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Will not God change things when we turn our hearts to Him? Have Faith in the Word - This a promise from HIM - Trust this promise as that is to walk in faith:
Pr 16:7 When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.

GodsWatchman · Feb 6, 2004

Justme said:
Then God and I agreed that it would come to pass that at the time of your wife's delivery He would transfer all of your wifes pain to you.

>> Turns the other cheek <<

...and would GLADLY take the pain For her because I love her that much!

Justme · Feb 6, 2004

Hi G/watch,

This MUST be your first baby because turnin' cheeks don't help much as I remember watching it.

Remember this, in nearly all medical situaions early diagnosis and early treatment is key. So pray on the way to the Doctor if you want, but do it sitting up behind the wheel, drivin as fast as reason allows.
DON'T waste time waiting on prayer to cut in, He may be using the surgeon as He used evolution.

I say this just coming off two spells in the intensive care unit in the last very short while. I been there.

nuff said, go back to the topic.............

Justme

disciple00 · Feb 7, 2004

I hope it is JustYou that mocks the miracles of God

Justme · Feb 7, 2004

Hi desciple,

I hope it is JustYou that mocks the miracles of God

Here is a an example of total misunderstanding. I wasn't mocking God's miracles.................

Justme

saltoearth · Feb 7, 2004

Justme said:
Justme said:

Hi Godswatchman,

I have just got out of hospital today and read back thru this thread. This is the second time in a month I have had a trip thru the Intensive Care Unit. It is three times this month that God has miraculously saved my life, He did it thru the sure hands of my physicians.

Click to expand...

When did God start using physicians to save lives? Did Jesus tell the lepars to show themselves to the physician or the priest (whose duty it was to declare if one is clean or unclean). The lepars walk to the priest was by faith that they were healed. The bible just says he healed ALL the sick that came to him. Can`t we come to him today on our knees or is Jesus powerless? God specializes in the impossible (i.e. miracles, not triple bypasses). When exactly have physican become God`s healing hand on earth? When they used leaches, when they practised bloodletting? Man is all about trial and error, why risk it?

I saw this stuff about your pregnant wife and how it would be a home birth, etc, etc.

Click to expand...

I know these comments are directed to Godswatchman but I just have to spank you for your brazen rejection of FAITH in GOD. The stuff about his pregnant wife, as you put it is quite amazing since I know Him and Her personally!!! She doesn`t have functioning filopean tubes (forgive the misspelling) so becoming naturally pregnant is quite unnatural if you know what I mean. If God can do one miracle why wont he do others? Is it just too much of a risk to trust in God and not the arm of the flesh?

So being I had to talk to God anyway I just thiought I'd mention you in the conversation. So I'm talking to God, and of course, you know how God is, He carries on with the small talk, just being nice before He let's you get to the meat of the whole thing. So I thanked Him for postponing my dirt nap again and then we talked about you. Then God and I agreed that it would come to pass that at the time of your wife's delivery He would transfer all of your wifes pain to you. Let me know howyou make out!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Click to expand...

Is this just some story you made up? If it is, that makes you a LIAR Rev 22 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolators, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Have you ever read the book of Proverbs? It has some words for mockers. Anyway lets just see how Godswatchman´s wife`s birth turns out, well see whose WORD we can trust.

Justme · Feb 7, 2004

Hi Salt,

To answer your post would suggest it has merit.

Justme

Adoniram · Feb 21, 2004

Hello stauron and hello parousia70-

Well, I told you that it would take me a while to go through all the material you guys presented in your last postings. I have studied that and alot more in the few weeks since I last spoke to you.

After having done that, I find that I cannot be persuaded to come over to the preterist viewpoint on these matters. There are two major reasons and an assortment of other reasons. There are clearly some prophesies that saw fulfillment in 70AD, but others that do not and, as I see it, remain to be fulfilled.

A few of the passages that refer to the 70AD event.

Zech.11:1-6 "1 Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour thy cedars.
2 Howl, fir tree; for the cedar is fallen; because the mighty are spoiled: howl, O ye oaks of Bashan; for the forest of the vintage is come down.
3 There is a voice of the howling of the shepherds; for their glory is spoiled: a voice of the roaring of young lions; for the pride of Jordan is spoiled.
4 Thus saith the LORD my God; Feed the flock of the slaughter;
5 Whose possessors slay them, and hold themselves not guilty: and they that sell them say, Blessed be the LORD; for I am rich: and their own shepherds pity them not.
6 For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD: but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbour's hand, and into the hand of his king: and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them."
Ezek. 34: 5-6 "5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them."
Micah 3:9-12 "9 Hear this, I pray you, ye heads of the house of Jacob, and princes of the house of Israel, that abhor judgment, and pervert all equity.
10 They build up Zion with blood, and Jerusalem with iniquity.
11 The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.
12 Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest."

These and several more, I believe, do refer to the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews that occured in 70AD. And of course, Jesus' prophesy in Mt. 24:2 concerning the temple destruction.

Then we come to the prophesies of Zech 14, which in the preterist viewpoint were also fulfilled in 70AD. But let's look a little closer. In 70AD, the Roman army was gathered against Jerusalem. Verse 2 says:

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle..."

In an earlier post, one of you claimed that the Roman army was comprised of peoples from all their conquered nations. Very likely, but to use that fact in application to this prophesy seems a bit contrived to me. In light of the world-wide anti-Jewish sentiment that we are seeing now, it seems more likely that the passage refers to a yet to be seen gathering of nations against Jerusalem. But, I won't belabor that point because I consider it minor in light of the following points. Verse 3 says:

"Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

Here we see that the Lord fights against those nations. And in verse 12, we see that the Lord is victorious.

"And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth."

This sounds amazingly like what happens via a nuclear device but nevertheless, it is significant to note that the Lord is victorious over the nations. This prophesy parallels that of Rev. 19:11, 15 - 21 which says:

"11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

I believe that Revelation was written after 70AD, along with the majority of Biblical scholars, but I know that is a major point of contention with preterists, who think it was written before. That, however, had no bearing on the conclusion I have reached. What we have is two prophesies, written hundreds of years apart, speaking of the Lord battling against the nations. And the Lord is victorious in both. If these prophesies had found fulfillment in 70AD, as the preterist viewpoint claims, the nations (i.e. Roman army) would have been defeated. This, as we know, did not happen. The Roman army was victorious; Jerusalem was destroyed; the Jews were scattered. The prophesies cannot be in error; that would be to deny the infallibility of the Word of God. The Lord will not be defeated. Since no other period in history after the writing of these prophesies, other than 70AD, even comes close to the description of "nations being gathered against Jerusalem," they must, in my opinion, apply to some future event.

Further examination of these prophesies shows that the Lord establish his rule over all the earth after his victory over the nations. Zech. 14:9

"And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."
Rev. 19:15
"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."
Tie in Mt. 24:30 & 25:31
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory."

So we see that after the Lord has defeated the nations, he will sit upon the throne of his kingdom and rule. The preterist viewpoint claims that we are now living in this kingdom, and that the church is the physical manifestation of this kingdom, destined to overcome the world. Now I have no problem with the fact that every Christian is adopted into the spiritual kingdom of God, I believe the Bible teaches that. However, I have found no scripture that refers to the church subduing the world and reforming it into a righteous place fit for God to dwell in. One that is often quoted in that application is Mt. 16:18

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

It does not say that the church will subdue, but rather that the devil will not, despite all the many persecutions he has inflicted upon the church down through the ages, be able to eradicate it. And this has proven to be true. As for overcoming the world, the Lord and his angels will do this as he explained to the disciples when they asked him about the parable of the tares. Mt 13:36-43

"36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

He says this will happen at the "end of the world" and then, and only then, will the righteousness of the kingdom come to earth.

I see that this post is too long to fit into one reply so I will break it here and continue in another.

Adoniram · Feb 21, 2004

Above post continued:

But the Bible also teaches that Christ will rule from Jerusalem in a physical kingdom. Zech 14:16-17

"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain."

If "all the families of the earth" will go to Jerusalem to worship the Lord, does it not make sense that he will be there for them to worship?
Micah 4:1-2
"But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."
Is. 24:23
"Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously."
Joel 3:16-17
"The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more."

So, with the Lord ruling from Jerusalem, what will be the characteristics of his physical kingdom, and are they anything like the times we now live in, or any period since Jesus first coming? To save me some typing, I am borrowing from what Mark Hitchcock has written about the subject at http://www.leftbehind.com/channelendtimes.asp?pageid=861&channelID=71 Mark gives a description of Christ's earthly kingdom which, according to Rev. 20, will last 1000 years.

The Nature of the Millennium

Mark Hitchcock says conditions during the Millennium will be similar to those in the Garden of Eden before the sin of Adam and Eve. The key conditions and references to support them are these:

PeaceThe end of war. (Isaiah 2:4; 9:4-7; 11:6-9; Zechariah 9:10)

Joy"When Isaac Watts wrote "Joy to the World"he penned the song to announce the glorious second coming of Christ to rule and reign on this earth" (Isaiah 9:3-4; 12:3-6; 14:7-8; 25:8-9; 30:29; Jeremiah 30:18-19; Zephaniah 3:14-17; Zechariah 8:18-19; 10:6-7).

Holiness"The word holy means to be 'set apart' to God for sacred purposes. The kingdom of Christ will be a holy kingdom" (Isaiah 4:3-4; 35:8; 51:1; Ezekiel 43:7-12; 45:1; Zechariah 8:3; 14:20-21).

Glory"The effulgent glory of God will be fully manifest in Christ's kingdom (Isaiah 35:2; 40:5; 60:1-9; Ezekiel 43:1-5).

Justice and RighteousnessHere, Hitchcock reminds us there is a distinction between the millennial kingdom and eternity, which follows. Even though populated by believers, they will still have human bodies with a fallen nature. "Humanity's sin will be judged by the administration of perfect justice at the hands of the Messiah" (Isaiah 9:7; 11:5; 32:16; 42:1-4; 65:21-23). "He will rule with "a rod of iron," restraining and judging sin so that the prevailing atmosphere in the kingdom will be righteousness (Isaiah 11:1-5; 60:21; Jeremiah 31:23; Ezekiel 37:23-24; Zephaniah 3:13).

Full Knowledge"The teaching ministry of the Lord and the indwelling Spirit will bring the subjects of the kingdom into a full knowledge of the Lord's ways (Isaiah 11:1-2; 41:19-20; 54:13; Jeremiah 31:33-34; Habakkuk 2:14).

Absence of Sickness or Deformity"The King will be both ruler and healer. Christ will heal all diseases and deformities among his people" (Isaiah 29:18; 33:24; 35:5-6; 61:1-2). People will have extended life spans, like those who lived before the flood. A person who dies at the age of 100 in this kingdom will have died very prematurely (Isaiah 65:20).

Universal Worship of God"All the inhabitants of the earth will join their hearts and voices in praise and worship to God and his Son, Jesus Christ (Isaiah 45:23; 52:7-10; 66:17-23; Zephaniah 3:9; Zechariah 13:2; 14:16; Malachi 1:11; Revelation 5:9-14). Worship will be centered in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:3; 60:13; Ezekiel 40-48; Joel 3:18; Haggai 2:7, 9). Animal sacrifices will be reinstituted (not to atone for sin, but as a memorial to Christ, whose sacrifice dealt with sin forever (Isaiah 56:6-7; 60:7; Ezekiel 43:18-27; 45:17-23; Zechariah 14:16-21; Hebrews 10:1-2).

Economic Prosperity"There won't be any need for rescue missions, welfare programs, food stamps, or relief agencies in the kingdom. The world will flourish under the hand of the King of heaven" (Isaiah 35:1-2, 7; 30:23-25; 62:8-9; 65:21-23; Jeremiah 31:5, 12; 36:29-30; Joel 2:21-27; Amos 9:13-14; Micah 4:4; Zechariah 8:11-12; 9:16-17).

The Presence of God"The greatest thing about the kingdom is that Christ himself will be there. God's presence will be fully recognized, and the Lord's people will experience fellowship unlike anything they have ever known with him" (Ezekiel 37:27-28; Zechariah 2:10-13). "The city of Jerusalem will be called Jehovah Shammah, which means 'the Lord is There'" (Ezekial 48:35)

If, as the preterist viewpoint expouses, Christ's Second Coming occured in 70AD, why does not this world, or this age, his "kingdom," exhibit these characteristics? Anyone can see that these are not characteristics that describe the times of the world in which we are now living or any other age. Instead we should refer to Mt. 24:4-14

"4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

These verses are a perfect description of the world we live in. Of course they are Jesus' description of the period of time immediately preceding his Second Coming and the establishment of his kingdom. Hmmmm

The preterist viewpoint hangs it's hat on these two major premises: that all prophesy was fulfilled in 70AD and that we are living in Christ's kingdom here on earth, now, at this time. But, to borrow the well know phrase "if it doesn't fit, you must acquit," I find that I must now acquit or free myself of any further serious consideration of the preterist viewpoint.

Thankyou guys, for giving me something to think about and causing me to dig deep into the Word.

MagusAlbertus · Feb 21, 2004

When did God start using physicians to save lives?

5 years ago when my dad had open heart surgery.

But I find it odd you want to focus on what you don't know God did as opposed to what we actually know he did.

My dad, after that operation, was in-operable *bad Mexican doc illegally practicing in America, dad didn't sue... its un-Christian*

They diagnosed him a year later as terminal 8-12 months to live... well its 5 years later and he's alive; it's been a long process but the man is strong in his Pentecostal foundation and relationship with the Lord.

So God works miracles through faith, be it faith that he'll give us the medical abilities to help people, or just faith that he'll allow you to watch your children grow up.

parousia70 · Feb 22, 2004

Adoniram said:
Hello stauron and hello parousia70-

Well, I told you that it would take me a while to go through all the material you guys presented in your last postings. I have studied that and alot more in the few weeks since I last spoke to you.

Hya Adoniram, Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Your concerns about the preterist view were well crafted and very lucid. I appreciate the time you took to spell them out for us. That having been said, they all in fact can be quite effectively answered from the preterist standpoint, and although you said you have seen enough to make up your mind already, I hope you would endulge me/us the opportunity to address your issues. While it's clear you did take some time to study this issue, please bear in mind that most preterists only come to the preterist view after YEARS of studying it, not days or weeks.

Now, lets deal with the meat of your post #1

There are two major reasons and an assortment of other reasons.

OK....

There are clearly some prophesies that saw fulfillment in 70AD, but others that do not and, as I see it, remain to be fulfilled.......These and several more, I believe, do refer to the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews that occured in 70AD. And of course, Jesus' prophesy in Mt. 24:2 concerning the temple destruction.

Just curious, where in Matt 24 do you assert Jesus answers the disciples question of "When" would the temple be destroyed?

Then we come to the prophesies of Zech 14, which in the preterist viewpoint were also fulfilled in 70AD. But let's look a little closer. In 70AD, the Roman army was gathered against Jerusalem. Verse 2 says:

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle..."

In an earlier post, one of you claimed that the Roman army was comprised of peoples from all their conquered nations. Very likely, but to use that fact in application to this prophesy seems a bit contrived to me.

Contrived? And you apparantly base this assertion upon what you see on CNN and read in USA Today?? May I suggest you compare scripture with scripture instead?

Acts 2:5
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Is it equally contrived to interprate this verse to mean something other than every single nation on earth? Were there Jews from China or Austrailia there in Jerusalem?

But, I won't belabor that point because I consider it minor in light of the following points. Verse 3 says:

"Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

That is a good verse from establishing the necessity for the preterist view... This clearly compares the battle to one or more previous battles of God.
May I ask you in what manner did God fight these previous battles?

Here we see that the Lord fights against those nations. And in verse 12, we see that the Lord is victorious.

"And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth."

This sounds amazingly like what happens via a nuclear device but nevertheless, it is significant to note that the Lord is victorious over the nations.

It is also significant that the decline of the Roman Empire dates from the fall of Jerusalem. It is also observable, that the Romans after having been thus made the executioners of divine vengeance on the Jewish nation, never prospered as they had done before; but the Lord evidently fought against them, and all the nations which composed their overgrown empire; till at last it was subverted, and their fairest cities and provinces were ravaged by barbarous invaders.
After using Rome as His rod to smite Jerusalem, God turns on Rome in judgment. Once again, Assyria is the model: "I send it against a godless nation and commission it against the people of My fury to capture booty and to seize plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets . . . . So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, 'I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness'" (Isa. 10:56, 1213).

Your musing on nuclear devices is interesting, but does not fit the modelf God doing Battle "as He did before".

This prophesy parallels that of Rev. 19:11, 15 - 21

A prophesy that was ordained to come to pass SHORTLY after John was given the vision, for the time 2000 years ago was then "At hand".

But you conveniently overlooked this, and every other time limit placed on the prophesies of the apocalypse. Do you just ignore them? or do you have some reason for not taking them literally, preferring to spiritualize them away into thousands of years?

I believe that Revelation was written after 70AD, along with the majority of Biblical scholars

Majority? Are you so sure about that? would you care to show your evidence of that claim? I think you are bluffing and I'm calling your bluff.

Since no other period in history after the writing of these prophesies, other than 70AD, even comes close to the description of "nations being gathered against Jerusalem," they must, in my opinion, apply to some future event.

So, you are saying the prophesies could have come to pass then, but since they didn't come to pass in the way you are expecting they will, they must be future? Again ignoring all the time texts that place their fulfillment in the 1st century? I'd submit that your expectations are what needs adjusting, and not the time texts.

Further examination of these prophesies shows that the Lord establish his rule over all the earth after his victory over the nations. Zech. 14:9

"And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."

The Lord IS King of all the earth and there IS only one Lord.
I am unclear why you claim He isn't.

Christ is the ruling King over the present Heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18-19) and the increase of His government has no end:

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

1 Peter 3:21-22
Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, AFTER angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Isaiah 9:6-7
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

So Jesus Christ is the ruling King over the present earth and the God of this world:

Eph 1:20-22
he raised him [Jesus] from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above ALL principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and EVERY name that is named, NOT ONLY IN THIS WORLD, but also in that which is to come: And hath put ALL things under his feet

1 Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

So we see that after the Lord has defeated the nations, he will sit upon the throne of his kingdom and rule. The preterist viewpoint claims that we are now living in this kingdom, and that the church is the physical manifestation of this kingdom, destined to overcome the world. Now I have no problem with the fact that every Christian is adopted into the spiritual kingdom of God, I believe the Bible teaches that. However, I have found no scripture that refers to the church subduing the world and reforming it into a righteous place fit for God to dwell in.

We are to subdue kingdoms and establish righteousness as the Hebrews 11 heroes did:

Hebrews 11:6, 32-33
for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him...for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions

The Christian Church walks in this great heritage of unstoppable faith just like our Hebrews 11 brothers and sisters. We are in process of subduing kingdoms, establishing righteousness, and asserting Christ's dominion over all nations through the same faith of David, Samuel, Joshua, and Moses had. Nothing can stop us.

Society is being redeemed by the Atonement of Christ's blood and the power of the Holy Spirit via the Church. Christ's Church is carrying out the reconciliation of the Cross to all nations and we cannot fail (Matt 16:18-19):

2 Corinthians 5:18-20
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as God did beseech you by us.

So we can see that at this time God is reconciling all the world unto himself.

We rule now over Heaven and Earth with King Jesus:

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL power is given unto me in heaven AND IN EARTH. Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all nations.

As for overcoming the world, the Lord and his angels will do this as he explained to the disciples when they asked him about the parable of the tares. Mt 13:36-43

He says this will happen at the "end of the world" and then, and only then, will the righteousness of the kingdom come to earth.

end of the world?
Don't you mean end of the age?
that is what the text says anyway.

I see that this post is too long to fit into one reply so I will break it here and continue in another.

I'll follow suit.......

stauron · Feb 23, 2004

Adoniram said:
Hello stauron and hello parousia70-

Well, I told you that it would take me a while to go through all the material you guys presented in your last postings. I have studied that and alot more in the few weeks since I last spoke to you.

After having done that, I find that I cannot be persuaded to come over to the preterist viewpoint on these matters. There are two major reasons and an assortment of other reasons. There are clearly some prophesies that saw fulfillment in 70AD, but others that do not and, as I see it, remain to be fulfilled.
<<snip>>
I believe that Revelation was written after 70AD, along with the majority of Biblical scholars, but I know that is a major point of contention with preterists, who think it was written before. That, however, had no bearing on the conclusion I have reached. What we have is two prophesies, written hundreds of years apart, speaking of the Lord battling against the nations. And the Lord is victorious in both. If these prophesies had found fulfillment in 70AD, as the preterist viewpoint claims, the nations (i.e. Roman army) would have been defeated. This, as we know, did not happen. The Roman army was victorious; Jerusalem was destroyed; the Jews were scattered. The prophesies cannot be in error; that would be to deny the infallibility of the Word of God. The Lord will not be defeated. Since no other period in history after the writing of these prophesies, other than 70AD, even comes close to the description of "nations being gathered against Jerusalem," they must, in my opinion, apply to some future event.
<<snip>>

Adoniram,

I too want to thank you for your generous and thoughtful response. It is rare to find those willing to examine and critique their own thought, and then change because they are confronted with irreconcilable differences.

I would also like to ask a couple of questions:

First, what are your rules of hermeneutics? For me this was one of the biggies. Partial preterism (congratulations, you now have a new label, you are a partial preterist...) is a slippery slope. Once you allow some of the verses to point to a past fulfillment, where do you stop? P70 is doing a good job in pointing out the inconsistencies. My main point is, how do you consistently apply a hermeneutic to all the verses, and come away with some pointing thousands of years away and some pointing to contemporary events? Once you start trying to assemble all the verses into "fullfilled" and "still future" and then start cross-referencing them you will slide further down the slope...

Secondly, who are the "majority of Biblical scholars"? I know you say that this didn't impact your decision, but it is a bald assertion. Nose counting doesn't add support to a position. Besides, there are many on both sides of the fence. But more importantly, how do you overcome the nearness of the warning of the book? No matter when it was written, it promises that the events are about to happen in no uncertain terms 7 times. So, even if it was written later, to what events was the book refering?

And finally, was the Lord victorious when the Assyrians crushed the Jews and led them into captivity? What about the Babylonians? Since God takes credit for the events in both cases, to call them failures is unthinkable. Yet, you rule out God's hand in the battle of 70ad and call it a failure. If God was fighting against the Romans, then you would be right. But the seige in 70 was against God's true enemies, the mutilation, the harlot, the synagogue of satan, the children of Hagar, the children of the devil, the tares, the foolish virgins, the brood of vipers, the ones that called for His blood to be upon them and their children, the unfruitful nation...need I go on? They were utterly cut off and came to a wretched end. God removed ungodliness from Jacob. It was a victory. It was THE victory. So the question is do the events in 70ad match the pattern and style of the judgements from the Old Testament Scriptures? Do the events in 70ad match the time frame given for their completion (the end of the age, within that generation, within the context of the Old Covenant). If so, why make them nonsense by seeking some other sense?

parousia70 · Feb 23, 2004

Adoniram said:
Above post continued:

Above reply continued...

But the Bible also teaches that Christ will rule from Jerusalem in a physical kingdom. Zech 14:16-17

"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain."

If "all the families of the earth" will go to Jerusalem to worship the Lord, does it not make sense that he will be there for them to worship?

The Families of the earth who belong to the Church (the New Jerusalem) worship the Lord of Hosts there now, so I fail to see how this proves a physical Christ ruling a temporal kingdom from a physical city.

Your hyper literal rendering of this text poses more problems than I think you are aware of.

The inescapable conclusion of your stated interpratation here is that you are looking forward to a time in our future where Christians will have to give up our current one on one personal relationship with Christ, able to have a personal, real conversation with Him any time of day or night, and trade it for the requirement of having to travel to earthly Jerusalem once a year, stand in line with the billion or so other Christians, to render blood animal sacrifices directly to Jesus for atonement.

Stauron mentioned the slippery slope before, and this is one you wll never convince me to go down.

There are parts of Zechariah 14 that you as a partial preterist agree are current realities brought by the sacrtifice of Christ, and not future ones. for example:

If I ask you if you believe Christ is the Living Waters, you would say yes. And If I quote a passage like these:

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

John 7:37-38 On the last day of the festival, the great day, while Jesus was standing there, he cried out, "Let anyone who is thirsty come to me, {38} and let the one who believes in me drink. As the scripture has said, 'Out of the believer's heart shall flow rivers of living water.'"

Both of us (hopefully) would say, YES, Living Waters are fulfilled now in Christ and we are not having to wait for those. We have them now, for He is our Living Waters. So then I say, Well let's look and see if the OT speaks about these living waters:

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Well, it is interesting that Christ's blood was shed in Jerusalem and that from there the Gospel was preached and the Living Waters began to flow out from Jerusalem. So now it's possible that you can agree that Zech 14:8 is fulfilled in Christ. But the verse begins with an interesting statement: "It shall be in that day." Well, the question I was asking myself is, What day? Obviously it is a continuation of a context. Lets work our way back up the passage:

Zechariah 14:1-7 See, a day is coming for the LORD, when the plunder taken from you will be divided in your midst. {2} For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses looted and the women raped; half the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. {3} Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. {4} On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives, which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward. {5} And you shall flee by the valley of the Lord's mountain, for the valley between the mountains shall reach to Azal; and you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of King Uzziah of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. {6} On that day there shall not be either cold or frost. {7} And there shall be continuous day (it is known to the LORD), not day and not night, for at evening time there shall be light.

Then the very next two verse state:

Zechariah 14:8-9 On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea; it shall continue in summer as in winter. {9} And the LORD will become king over all the earth; on that day the LORD will be one and his name one.

Why does this passage combine these elements if they are thousands of years apart. Beyond that, why does it use such a strange time reference as if it was all supposed to happen around the same time?

Can you really sit there and say that Zechariah just suddenly interjected verse 8 by jumping 2000 years back, and then in verse 9 jump ahead again 2000 years, especially with the phrase "in that day."?

So which is it? Is Christ the Living Waters now? or Is this an unfulfilled prophecy?

Well, you could say it will be fulfilled literally one day. If this is so, what Scripture proves this? In other words, if that is so, then to what fulfillment is Zechariah referring? The spiritual or the physical? If I say physical and it refers to the future, then what Scripture do I use to support it being fulfilled spiritually one day? You see, you'll need to find a way to justify and make for two fulfillments, but the Bible does not do that. If you try to impose double fulfillment on the rest of those passages, you would be creating a maze that would be unconquerable and meaningless. Slippery slope indeed.

To save me some typing, I am borrowing from what Mark Hitchcock has written about the subject at http://www.leftbehind.com/channelendtimes.asp?pageid=861&channelID=71 Mark gives a description of Christ's earthly kingdom which, according to Rev. 20, will last 1000 years.

The Nature of the Millennium

Mark Hitchcock says conditions during the Millennium will be similar to those in the Garden of Eden before the sin of Adam and Eve. The key conditions and references to support them are these:

First of all, As to the "millennium," the bible proves it is not a real historic thing:

Since the resurrection occurs at the second coming (1 Cor 15:23)...

And since the judgment occurs at the second coming (2 Tim 4:1; Rev 11:15-18)...

And since the New Heaven/Earth occurs at the "thief's coming," the "day of the Lord" (2 Pet 3:10/1 Thess 5:2)...

THEREFORE we know there is no literal historic millennium. The bible proves there is no literal earthly "millennium." The "thousand years" is a typological symbol in John's highly typological and symbolic vision.

You cannot dispute these facts, no matter how hard you try. The "millennium" is a typological symbol, and not a real future epoch. However, I will address the "bullet points" your source made.

Peace

The peace of Christ reigns today, all who are in Christ are full partakers, regardless of our temporal struggles, nothing can subvert that peace.

Joy"When Isaac Watts wrote "Joy to the World"he penned the song to announce the glorious second coming of Christ to rule and reign on this earth"

Isaac Watts sounds like a preterist! That is one of the finest preteristic hymns there is. Indeed, "He rules the world with truth and grace" even as I type.

Holiness"The word holy means to be 'set apart' to God for sacred purposes. The kingdom of Christ will be a holy kingdom"

The Kingdom of Christ IS a Holy Kingdom today, and we currently rule and reign with Him.

Glory"The effulgent glory of God will be fully manifest in Christ's kingdom.

There is no further manifestation of the Glory of God than there is in Christ.
We are not waiting for some future greater redemption from sin than we currently enjoy.

Justice and RighteousnessHere, Hitchcock reminds us there is a distinction between the millennial kingdom and eternity, which follows. Even though populated by believers, they will still have human bodies with a fallen nature. "Humanity's sin will be judged by the administration of perfect justice at the hands of the Messiah" (Isaiah 9:7; 11:5; 32:16; 42:1-4; 65:21-23).

Have you read Isaiah 65? How Hitchcock, or anyone, can claim Isaiah 65 referrs to the millennium and NOT the New Heavens and earth, is beyond reason. Isaiah clearly, without question, places the description found in Isaiah 65 directly in the New Heavens and earth time period, and not before.

Full Knowledge"The teaching ministry of the Lord and the indwelling Spirit will bring the subjects of the kingdom into a full knowledge of the Lord's ways

We have both the teaching ministry and the indwelling spirit now, we are not waiting for those.

Absence of Sickness or Deformity A person who dies at the age of 100 in this kingdom will have died very prematurely (Isaiah 65:20).

Again, this passage describes the reality of the New Heavens and earth time, not the millennium.

Universal Worship of God"All the inhabitants of the earth will join their hearts and voices in praise and worship to God and his Son, Jesus Christ (Isaiah 45:23; 52:7-10; 66:17-23; Zephaniah 3:9; Zechariah 13:2; 14:16; Malachi 1:11; Revelation 5:9-14). Worship will be centered in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:3; 60:13; Ezekiel 40-48; Joel 3:18; Haggai 2:7, 9). Animal sacrifices will be reinstituted (not to atone for sin, but as a memorial to Christ, whose sacrifice dealt with sin forever (Isaiah 56:6-7; 60:7; Ezekiel 43:18-27; 45:17-23; Zechariah 14:16-21; Hebrews 10:1-2).

Again with the reinstitution of animal sarcifices, but apparantly he has some disclaimer that they are not for atonement. I suppose he has to, but it is against the text, especially the Ezekiel passages He cited, for they SPECIFICALLY state the sacrifices are SIN OFFERINGS, not remberances as Hitchcock would twist the text.

C'mon, do you REALLY think you personally will one day be REQUIRED to travel to Jerusalem and slay a bull or goat in front of Jesus Himself for a "Sin offering"

Are you sure you stand fully behind this notion of "Backwards redemption"?

The Presence of God"The greatest thing about the kingdom is that Christ himself will be there. God's presence will be fully recognized, and the Lord's people will experience fellowship unlike anything they have ever known with him" (Ezekiel 37:27-28; Zechariah 2:10-13). "The city of Jerusalem will be called Jehovah Shammah, which means 'the Lord is There'" (Ezekial 48:35)

In the Church, (the New Jerusalem) the Lord IS there, and His presence is fully recognized by his elect. Again, we are not waiting for this.

If, as the preterist viewpoint expouses, Christ's Second Coming occured in 70AD, why does not this world, or this age, his "kingdom," exhibit these characteristics? Anyone can see that these are not characteristics that describe the times of the world in which we are now living or any other age. Instead we should refer to Mt. 24:4-14

Well, first, who was Jesus speaking to? HIS DISCIPLES.
and what question of theirs was He answering?
WHEN WILL THE TEMPLE BE DESTROYED?

Next, If you believe the Bible, the gospel WAS PREACHED TO ALL THE WORLD by the 60's AD:

Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

In Matthew 24:14, the Greek word for preached is kerusso, it is in the future tense. But in Colossians 1:23 the same word kerusso is in the aorist tense (past). Jesus said that it is to be preached and Paul says in AD 62, that it has been preached to every creature. Paul also said that the faith of the Romans was spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;

I find that I must now acquit or free myself of any further serious consideration of the preterist viewpoint.

I'd submit that you have not given it a fair trial, having ignored the bulk of evidence.

Thankyou guys, for giving me something to think about and causing me to dig deep into the Word.

Our pleasure!
Kepp digging!

parousia70 · Feb 24, 2004

Hoonbaba · Feb 25, 2004

Hi Adoniram,

I'll share a few thoughts. Don't know if you'll agree with them though.

Adoniram said:
Then we come to the prophesies of Zech 14, which in the preterist viewpoint were also fulfilled in 70AD. But let's look a little closer. In 70AD, the Roman army was gathered against Jerusalem. Verse 2 says:

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle..."

Well, I think some context is necessary. What I mean is, I think the early Jewish/Christian understanding of their world was significantly smaller, meaning that their local world was what they considered their world. I'll elaborate:

Jesus was shown 'all the kingdoms of the world' on a mountain by the devil (Matt 4:8). I don't think this literally happened since there is no mountain that high. Additionally, King Cyrus of Persia was given 'all the kingdoms of the earth' (Ezra 1:2, 2 Chronicles 36:23). Apostle Paul supposely claims the gospel went out to 'all the world' (Col 1:6). The same goes for a famine that struck the 'whole world' (Acts 11:28) as well as a 'worldwide tax' by caesar (Luke 2:1). NIV bible translates 'whole world' as 'roman world', but that was their understanding of the 'whole world' (KJV translation brings this to light). So, it seems 'all nations' would have to fit into the 'whole world', as in the roman world.

-Jason

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