Full Preterism-Where is the scriptural evidence?

[LittleLambofJesus]

To Der Alter,

Jesus said that the hour of the resurrection "NOW IS."

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and NOW is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.....

23 But the hour is coming, and NOW is,

"Now is" means "now is,"........................

.

Excellent!
Paul sure seemed to imply the hour of the Jews' salvation was at hand.
OC Jerusalem and it's Temple was still staning when he proclaimed that......

Romans 13:11
And this being knowing the time.
That hour already ye out of sleep to be roused,
for now is nearer of us the Salvation than we believe [Reve 7:10, 12:10, 19:1]

Reve 12:10
And I hear great voice saying in the Heaven "now is become the Salvation and the power and the Kingdom of the God of us, and the authority of the Christ of Him,
that was cast the Accuser of the brothers of us, the accusing them in sight of the God of us day and night. [John 5:45]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7472380/
Has the Accuser been cast down yet?

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

John 5:45
"No be ye supposing that I shall be accusing ye toward the Father, is the one accusing of ye, Moses into whom ye have hoped"
[Reve 12:10]


.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Btw, I just became a grandpa. Click on camera icon left above to see picture of my new born granddaughter Raven.

Congrats!

You are of course going to raise her up as a Preterist, right?

Gen 8:7
Then he sent out a raven, which kept going to and fro until the waters had dried up from the earth.

Put a radio by her crib and tune it to this station....it will bless her.....

Preterist Radio @ REV23.NET Online Radio by preteristradio | BlogTalkRadio

Relax...It all happened in 70ad!!!

Broadcasting live 24/7 from The New Jerusalem.

.........................


.

 

[pdudgeon]

congratulations on the birth of your new granddaughter!

 

[Der Alte]

To Der Alter,

Jesus said that the hour of the resurrection "NOW IS."

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and NOW is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

"Now is" means "now is,"

23 But the hour is coming, and NOW is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Did the hour for the true worship which is in spirit and in truth begin? Or, is it in our indefinite future?

Btw, I just became a grandpa. Click on camera icon left above to see picture of my new born granddaughter Raven.

Let's ask Mr. Tertullian if he knows it already happened?

Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] Part Second

37 Thus, in the present instance,we have the Spirit giving life to the flesh which has been subdued by death; for “the hour,” says He, “is coming, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live.” Now, what is “the dead” but the flesh? and what is “the voice of God” but the Word? And what is the Word but the Spirit, who shall justly raise the flesh which He had once Himself become, and that too from death, which He Himself suffered, and from the grave, which He Himself once entered? Then again, when He says, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation,” — none will after such words be able to interpret the dead “that are in the graves” as any other than the bodies of the flesh, because the graves themselves are nothing but the resting-place of corpses: for it is incontestable that even those who partake of “the old man,” that is to say, sinful men — in other words, those who are dead through their ignorance of God (whom our heretics, forsooth, foolishly insist on understanding by the word “graves”) — are plainly here spoken of as having to come from their graves for judgment. But how are graves to come forth from graves?​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Let's ask Mr. Tertullian if he knows it already happened?

Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] Part Second

37 Thus, in the present instance,we have the Spirit giving life to the flesh which has been subdued by death; for “the hour,” says He, “is coming, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live.”.........

Then again, when He says, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation,” —........ in other words, those who are dead through their ignorance of God (whom our heretics, forsooth, foolishly insist on understanding by the word “graves&#8221 — are plainly here spoken of as having to come from their graves for judgment. But how are graves to come forth from graves?
​

Looks to me like he doesn't really say.

I didn't know the RCC considered him a heretic and apostate. Interesting

Tertullian

Though he is little known and though the Roman Catholic Church, with some reason, considers him a heretic and apostate, he remains a towering figure whose importance in the church stands on a par with such men as Augustine, Luther and Calvin.

Much of his life has been lost in the dusty past. Only the sketchiest of details have come down to us.............

.

 

[Der Alte]

Let's ask Mr. Tertullian if he knows it already happened?

Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] Part Second

37 Thus, in the present instance,we have the Spirit giving life to the flesh which has been subdued by death; for “the hour,” says He, “is coming, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live.” Now, what is “the dead” but the flesh? and what is “the voice of God” but the Word? And what is the Word but the Spirit, who shall justly raise the flesh which He had once Himself become, and that too from death, which He Himself suffered, and from the grave, which He Himself once entered? Then again, when He says, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation,” — none will after such words be able to interpret the dead “that are in the graves” as any other than the bodies of the flesh, because the graves themselves are nothing but the resting-place of corpses: for it is incontestable that even those who partake of “the old man,” that is to say, sinful men — in other words, those who are dead through their ignorance of God (whom our heretics, forsooth, foolishly insist on understanding by the word “graves”) — are plainly here spoken of as having to come from their graves for judgment. But how are graves to come forth from graves?​

Looks to me like he doesn't really say.

I didn't know the RCC considered him a heretic and apostate. Interesting

Tertullian

Though he is little known and though the Roman Catholic Church, with some reason, considers him a heretic and apostate, he remains a towering figure whose importance in the church stands on a par with such men as Augustine, Luther and Calvin.

Much of his life has been lost in the dusty past. Only the sketchiest of details have come down to us.............

.

Tertullian never says that it did happen. Something that momentuous some of the ECF including Tertullian should have known about it. Tertullian according to the Catholic Encyclopedia.

(QUINTUS SEPTIMIUS FLORENS TERTULLIANUS).

Ecclesiastical writer in the second and third centuries, b. probably about 160 at Carthage, being the son of a centurion in the proconsular service. He was evidently by profession an advocate in the law-courts, and he shows a close acquaintance with the procedure and terms of Roman law, though it is doubtful whether he is to be identified with a jurist Tertullian who is cited in the Pandects. He knew Greek as well as Latin, and wrote works in Greek which have not come down to us. A pagan until middle life, he had shared the pagan prejudices against Christianity, and had indulged like others in shameful pleasures. His conversion was not later than the year 197, and may have been earlier. He embraced the Faith with all the ardour of his impetuous nature. He became a priest, no doubt of the Church of Carthage. Monceaux, followed by d'Ales, considers that his earlier writings were composed while he was yet a layman, and if this be so, then his ordination was about 200. His extant writings range in date from the apologetics of 197 to the attack on a bishop who is probably Pope Callistus (after 218). It was after the year 206 that he joined the Montanist sect, and he seems to have definitively separated from the Church about 211 (Harnack) or 213 (Monceaux).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Tertullian​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Tertullian never says that it did happen. Something that momentuous some of the ECF including Tertullian should have known about it. Tertullian according to the Catholic Encyclopedia.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Tertullian
​

Did he, or any of the other ECFs, view the destuction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD70 as fulfilling any of the prophecies of Daniel, Olivet Discourse and Revelation? And did any of them witness that event?

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!

"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."
(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923-101/
How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

I view all of it fulfilled

39 24.38%

I view it as mostly/partially fulfilled

66 41.25%

I view it as none of it is fulfilled

22 13.75%

I don't really know

15 9.38%

Other [please explain]

18 11.25%

 

[A New World]

To Der Alter,

Jesus said that the hour of the resurrection "NOW IS."

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and NOW is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

"Now is" means "now is,"

23 But the hour is coming, and NOW is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Did the hour for the true worship which is in spirit and in truth begin? Or, is it in our indefinite future?

Let's ask Mr. Tertullian if he knows it already happened?

Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] Part Second

37 Thus, in the present instance,we have the Spirit giving life to the flesh which has been subdued by death; for “the hour,” says He, “is coming, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live.” Now, what is “the dead” but the flesh? and what is “the voice of God” but the Word? And what is the Word but the Spirit, who shall justly raise the flesh which He had once Himself become, and that too from death, which He Himself suffered, and from the grave, which He Himself once entered? Then again, when He says, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation,” — none will after such words be able to interpret the dead “that are in the graves” as any other than the bodies of the flesh, because the graves themselves are nothing but the resting-place of corpses: for it is incontestable that even those who partake of “the old man,” that is to say, sinful men — in other words, those who are dead through their ignorance of God (whom our heretics, forsooth, foolishly insist on understanding by the word “graves”) — are plainly here spoken of as having to come from their graves for judgment. But how are graves to come forth from graves?​

The Boxer asked Der Alter about Jesus saying the hour of resurrection "NOW IS."

What was Der Alter's response? Did he exegete Jesus' words? No, he ran to Tertullian to see what his opinion was!

It's interesting to me that Mr. Tertullian didn't even address Jesus' words, "...and now is."

 

[A New World]

I can't imagine myself going to a lawyer's office and instead of legal scholarship I get some dood who practices law based on his own opinions. Theology is the only field where anyone can pick up a Bible and/or a Strong's concordance and consider themself an expert.

How about if your lawyer begins giving you legal scholarship that consists of selected quotes from the opinions of dead lawyers that don't even agree with each other? Probably not going to help you much!

Yes one can be an expert in Scripture and not in the historical opinions of other men.

What would you call it when someone says e.g. that God called Israel "heaven and earth" in Isa 51:16, so in Matt 24 when Jesus says "the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" it is referring to the destruction of Israel

I call it Jesus and the apostles as divine interpreters of the OT. Jesus said, "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." (Matthew‬ 5‬:18‬ NKJV)

According to Jesus none of the OC Law of Moses could pass away until heaven and earth pass away. If heaven and earth have not passed away God's people are subject to every jot and tittle of the Law of Moses. John saw the imminent passing of the Law, the old heaven and earth. (Rev. 21:1)

And, as I pointed out earlier in this thread, in Mt. 24 Jesus used apocalyptic, figurative language with which His audiences were familiar. He spoke of a transfer of kingdoms, OC to NC, just as Isaiah prophesied the transfer of the Babylonian kingdom to that of the Medo-Persian kingdom. (Is. 13)

What I have done is quote historical evidence such as the early church fathers and language evidence such as Hebrew and Greek lexicons. see e.g. [post=65956253]Post #261[/post] and [post=65843918]Post #30[/post] this thread.

You may have provided selected quotes that are historical but they are not "evidence." Scripture itself is evidence and the standard of truth. Quoting Ignatius, Irenaeus and Justin is not evidence. Try giving a scriptural response.

I tell them their 19th century and later preterist speculations are not supported by historical evidence.

But Preterism is supported by scriptural evidence as demonstrated by many in this thread.

I have dealt extensively with the texts beginning with post #2 in this thread. See e.g. posts #6, 7, 11, 14.

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see your posts on this thread until #123.

At the risk of repeating yourself, please answer the following question:

Jesus said: "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."(Matthew‬ 24‬:32-35‬ NKJV)

Later in that generation James wrote:

"Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!" (James‬ 5‬:7-9‬ NKJV)

Many Preterists see these two passages as parallel. Jesus told His disciples their generation would witness, "all these things," i.e. all the events He had just described. He said the disciples would know when it was near, at the doors.

James told his audience to be patient because the coming of The Lord was at hand, near. He also said the Judge was, at that time, standing at the door.

Do you see Mt. 24:32-34 & James 5:7-9 as parallel passages? Why or why not?

 

[JesusMartyr]

Funny how that those who claimed Moses, and all who were the doctors and scribes and Pharisees and sadducees and lawyers, as well as expert linguists no doubt in Greek and Hebrew... were LOST because they relied on their "expertise" and crucified their Lord because of their spiritual ignorance and pride.
For that very reason, the blindness and deafness of them, Jesus chose fisherman, because into their clean slate minds and hungry souls, He could reveal the Spirit of Truth.
History is just repeating itself here. The wisdom and scholarly expertise of man is foolishness with God.
Jesus reveals. And when He does, we know it.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Congrats!

You are of course going to raise her up as a Preterist, right?

Actually, my daughter is a Preterist and her husband is a Dispensationalist. They have agreed that each will teach their own view to Raven and let the child decide. But we are hoping that my son-in-law will become a Preterist before then.

My daughter and her son-in-law met at a Dispensationalist Bible college in Indiana. My daughter attended the college because it was the only Christian college which offered her major in graphic design. My son-in-law majored in environmental biology. They both have fantastic jobs in Indiana in their majors now.

The most important thing is that Raven should grow up to love Jesus as her mom and dad love Him. But it will be icing on the cake if Raven embraces Preterism.

 

[Der Alte]

Let's ask Mr. Tertullian if he knows it already happened?

Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] Part Second

37 Thus, in the present instance,we have the Spirit giving life to the flesh which has been subdued by death; for “the hour,” says He, “is coming, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live.” Now, what is “the dead” but the flesh? and what is “the voice of God” but the Word? And what is the Word but the Spirit, who shall justly raise the flesh which He had once Himself become, and that too from death, which He Himself suffered, and from the grave, which He Himself once entered? Then again, when He says, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation,” — none will after such words be able to interpret the dead “that are in the graves” as any other than the bodies of the flesh, because the graves themselves are nothing but the resting-place of corpses: for it is incontestable that even those who partake of “the old man,” that is to say, sinful men — in other words, those who are dead through their ignorance of God (whom our heretics, forsooth, foolishly insist on understanding by the word “graves”) — are plainly here spoken of as having to come from their graves for judgment. But how are graves to come forth from graves?​

The Boxer asked Der Alter about Jesus saying the hour of resurrection "NOW IS."

What was Der Alter's response? Did he exegete Jesus' words? No, he ran to Tertullian to see what his opinion was!

It's interesting to me that Mr. Tertullian didn't even address Jesus' words, "...and now is."

And you don't get it do you? Do you understand what historical evidence is? Tertullian quoted the verse twice and the words "and now is" evidently did not concern him.

 

[Der Alte]

How about if your lawyer begins giving you legal scholarship that consists of selected quotes from the opinions of dead lawyers that don't even agree with each other? Probably not going to help you much!

That ain't the way it works in either field! In law court decisions often rest on legal precedences. How did other courts find citing the same law and similar or the same circumstances? In law there are state and federal "court reporters" where lawyers can research legal precedence. Hey that sounds sort of like someone citing historical evidence, such as the ECF, in support of a point of belief.

Yes one can be an expert in Scripture and not in the historical opinions of other men.

Only if one assumes that the ECF were wrong and the church has been wrong for ca. 2000 years +/- and that only he can correctly interpret the Bible.

I call it Jesus and the apostles as divine interpreters of the OT. Jesus said, "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." (Matthew‬ 5‬:18‬ NKJV)

According to Jesus none of the OC Law of Moses could pass away until heaven and earth pass away. If heaven and earth have not passed away God's people are subject to every jot and tittle of the Law of Moses. John saw the imminent passing of the Law, the old heaven and earth. (Rev. 21:1)

That is not what scripture says. If this were true none of the NT writers would have cited the OT. But see Hebrews 1, e.g. I count at least 15 quotes from the OT in chapter 1 alone.

The problem I have is there is a whole alphabet soup of religious groups, LDS, WTBS, SDA, UPCI, OP, WWCG, etc. all claiming that the Bible is all allegory and that only they have the true truth. And they can all show how this or that OT scripture is an allegory of some NT text. Eeenie, meenie, minee, moe which one shall I choose?

And, as I pointed out earlier in this thread, in Mt. 24 Jesus used apocalyptic, figurative language with which His audiences were familiar. He spoke of a transfer of kingdoms, OC to NC, just as Isaiah prophesied the transfer of the Babylonian kingdom to that of the Medo-Persian kingdom. (Is. 13)

All assumption! As I said the only way your interpretation works is if you can make heavens and earth mean Zion in Isa 51:16. I have posted quotes from the LXX and the Targum showing that the Jews did not understand it that way. I highly doubt that present day Preterists know the meaning of the Hebrew text better than the Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars who translated the Targums and the LXX.

You may have provided selected quotes that are historical but they are not "evidence." Scripture itself is evidence and the standard of truth. Quoting Ignatius, Irenaeus and Justin is not evidence. Try giving a scriptural response.

I have! I interpret scripture literally unless the text is clearly identified as figurative, or unless the context shows it to be figurative.

But Preterism is supported by scriptural evidence as demonstrated by many in this thread.

Preterism is based on assumptions. For example Isa 51:16 the only way Preterists can make Matt 24 fit is to assume that heavens and earth in Isa 51:16 mean Zion. Despite the fact that heavens and earth occurs three times in Isa 51, vss, 6, 13, and 16 and heavens and earth in vss, 6 and 13 cannot refer to Zion.

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see your posts on this thread until #123.

My mistake that was in the other Preterist thread.

At the risk of repeating yourself, please answer the following question:

Jesus said: "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."(Matthew‬ 24‬:32-35‬ NKJV)

Later in that generation James wrote:

"Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!" (James‬ 5‬:7-9‬ NKJV)

Many Preterists see these two passages as parallel. Jesus told His disciples their generation would witness, "all these things," i.e. all the events He had just described. He said the disciples would know when it was near, at the doors.

James told his audience to be patient because the coming of The Lord was at hand, near. He also said the Judge was, at that time, standing at the door. Do you see Mt. 24:32-34 & James 5:7-9 as parallel passages? Why or why not?

Not without more scriptural evidence. The Lord and the judge are not necessarily the same person.

 

[Der Alte]

Did he, or any of the other ECFs, view the destuction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD70 as fulfilling any of the prophecies of Daniel, Olivet Discourse and Revelation? And did any of them witness that event?

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!

"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."
(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923-101/
How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

I view all of it fulfilled 39 24.38%

I view it as mostly/partially fulfilled 66 41.25%

I view it as none of it is fulfilled 22 13.75%

I don't really know 15 9.38%

Other [please explain] 18 11.25%

Here are a few ECF on the destruction of Jerusalem.

Justin Martyr First Apology [A.D. 110-165.] Justin Chapter 47

That the land of the Jews, then, was to be laid waste, hear what was said by the Spirit of prophecy. And the words were spoken as if from the person of the people wondering at what had happened. They are these: “Sion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation. The house of our sanctuary has become a curse, and the glory which our fathers blessed is burned up with fire, and all its glorious things are laid waste: and Thou refrainest Thyself at these things, and hast held Thy peace, and hast humbled us very sore.” And ye are convinced that Jerusalem has been laid waste, as was predicted. And concerning its desolation, and that no one should be permitted to inhabit it, there was the following prophecy by Isaiah: “Their land is desolate, their enemies consume it before them, and none of them shall dwell therein.” And that it is guarded by you lest any one dwell in it, and that death is decreed against a Jew apprehended entering it, you know very well.

Justin Dialogue with Trypho

80 But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book 4 Chapter 4

1. Further, also, concerning Jerusalem and the Lord, they venture to assert that, if it had been “the city of the great King,” it would not have been deserted.
…
2. Since, then, the law originated with Moses, it terminated with John as a necessary consequence. Christ had come to fulfill it: wherefore “the law and the prophets were” with them “until John.” And therefore Jerusalem, taking its commencement from David, and fulfilling its own times, must have an end of legislation when the new covenant was revealed.

Book 5
4. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as “he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition,” as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that “many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] Answer to the Jews Chapter 13

And in another place it is thus said through the prophet: “The King with His glory ye shall see,” — that is, Christ, doing deeds of power in the glory of God the Father; “and your eyes shall see the land from afar,” — which is what you do, being prohibited, in reward of your deserts, since the storming of Jerusalem, to enter into your land; it is permitted you merely to see it with your eyes from afar: “your soul,” he says, “shall meditate terror,” — namely, at the time when they suffered the ruin of themselves. How, therefore, will a “leader” be born from Judaea, and how far will he “proceed from Bethlehem,” as the divine volumes of the prophets do plainly announce; since none at all is left there to this day of (the house of) Israel, of whose stock Christ could be born?

A second time, in fact, let us show that Christ is already come, (as foretold) through the prophets, and has suffered, and is already received back in the heavens, and thence is to come accordingly as the predictions prophesied.​

 

[Jack Terrence]

And you don't get it do you? Do you understand what historical evidence is? Tertullian quoted the verse twice and the words "and now is" evidently did not concern him.

And you don't get it. Who cares what Tertullian thought?

Jesus said that the resurrection "NOW is."

He said that the hour for true worship in spirit and in truth "NOW is."

He said that the time for the Son of Man to be glorified "NOW is."

Paul said that the day of salvation "NOW is."

If Tertullian was not concerned with the REPEATED biblical expression "NOW is," then he is not worth our time.

 

[A New World]

Not without more scriptural evidence. The Lord and the judge are not necessarily the same person.

Are you saying you don't know what James meant? Or, are you saying there's no way to know who the Judge is to whom James was referring?

Why don't you enlighten us? Please exegete the two passages, Mt. 24:32-34 & James 5:7-9.

 

[Der Alte]

And you don't get it. Who cares what Tertullian thought?

Jesus said that the resurrection "NOW is."

He said that the hour for true worship in spirit and in truth "NOW is."

He said that the time for the Son of Man to be glorified "NOW is."

Paul said that the day of salvation "NOW is."

If Tertullian was not concerned with the REPEATED biblical expression "NOW is," then he is not worth our time.

Nothing but your opinion! Your opinion about Tertullian or any other early church father is not worth my time. Preterists all follow one another down the same path, making the same arguments, quoting the same passages and ignoring anything which contradicts them, claiming that their interpretation of scripture is the only correct one. If all the prophecies in Matt 24 were fulfilled in 70 AD why did none of the ECF know it? John's disciples Polycarp and Ignatius didn't know it. Irenaeus who was Polycarp's disciple didn't know it.

 

[Copenator]

Nothing but your opinion! Your opinion about Tertullian or any other early church father is not worth my time. Preterists all follow one another down the same path, making the same arguments, quoting the same passages and ignoring anything which contradicts them, claiming that their interpretation of scripture is the only correct one. If all the prophecies in Matt 24 were fulfilled in 70 AD why did none of the ECF know it? John's disciples Polycarp and Ignatius didn't know it. Irenaeus who was Polycarp's disciple didn't know it.

Der Alter, can you please provide these verses that you claim "contradicts" the passages referred to by preterists? I would like to hear your view on the passages you provide and not just a copy/paste of an ECF. Some corollary passages to accompany the "contradictory" passages would help in my understanding of your view.

Thanks
Copenator

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter, can you please provide these verses that you claim "contradicts" the passages referred to by preterists? I would like to hear your view on the passages you provide and not just a copy/paste of an ECF. Some corollary passages to accompany the "contradictory" passages would help in my understanding of your view.

Thanks
Copenator

Did that already in another pretereist thread.


http://www.christianforums.com/t7827750-2/#post65834939

http://www.christianforums.com/t7827750-2/#post65834825

http://www.christianforums.com/t7827750-2/#post65829383

http://www.christianforums.com/t7827750/#post65819680

http://www.christianforums.com/t7827750/#post65818758

 

[A New World]

Do you see Mt. 24:32-34 & James 5:7-9 as parallel passages? Why or why not?

Not without more scriptural evidence. The Lord and the judge are not necessarily the same person.

In the case of James 5:9 the evidence is conclusive. The Judge is Jesus Christ, Lord of all, the righteous Judge. The Lord and the Judge were the same person.

Here's the scriptural evidence:

"The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ— He is Lord of all—...And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead." (Acts‬ 10‬:36,42‬ NKJV)

"I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom...Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing." (II Timothy‬ 4‬:1, 8‬ NKJV)

"You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!" (James‬ 5‬:8-9‬ NKJV)

James established the coming of The Lord as near. Peter confirmed the imminent coming of The Lord, the One who was ready (temporally) to judge. The time of the judgment had drawn near.

"They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead...But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers...For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" (I Peter‬ 4‬:5, 7, 17‬ NKJV)

Now that I've given the scriptural evidence, here's the question again:

Jesus said: "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."(Matthew‬ 24‬:32-35‬ NKJV)

Later in that generation James wrote:

"Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!" (James‬ 5‬:7-9‬ NKJV)

Many Preterists see these two passages as parallel. Jesus told His disciples their generation would witness, "all these things," i.e. all the events He had just described. He said the disciples would know when it was near, at the doors.

James told his audience to be patient because the coming of The Lord was at hand, near. He also said the Judge was, at that time, standing at the door.

Do you see Mt. 24:32-34 & James 5:7-9 as parallel passages? Why or why not?