Full Preterism-Where is the scriptural evidence?

[yeshuasavedme]

He could have, and kosmos is the system of dominion that ends at His return.
The age in the sense that the dominion of the devil ends.

Age, planet, kosmos kingdom and dominion are all used in ways that cross over at times.
The kosmos passed away that existed before the flood. The planet did not pass away as it shall at the end of the thousand years.

Eon and kosmos are both used for the periods of time and dominion over the earth. Earth shall pass away at the end of the thousand years and a New heavens and New earth will be formed from the elements, but His kingdom will be from hence, from this earth, when the Son of Man returns to this planet to reign over it as King of Kings and LORD of lords.

"My kingdom is now not from hence" -but it is coming to "hence"

He did not say the planet would pass away (until after the thousand years), but the dominon of the devil will end, when the LORD takes His great power and reigns and cleanses this planet of all evil at His return.

The Parable of the Tares Explained
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
38 The field is the world [kosmos] , the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age [eon], and the reapers are the angels.
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom [this earth, for He takes His great power and reigns] all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father [in this earth]. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world [kosmos], and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world [kosmos] are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world [kosmos] that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

 

[AnthonyE1778]

He could have, and kosmos is the system of dominion that ends at His return.
The age in the sense that the dominion of the devil ends.

Age, planet, kosmos kingdom and dominion are all used in ways that cross over at times.
The kosmos passed away that existed before the flood. The planet did not pass away as it shall at the end of the thousand years.

Eon and kosmos are both used for the periods of time and dominion over the earth. Earth shall pass away at the end of the thousand years and a New heavens and New earth will be formed from the elements, but His kingdom will be from hence, from this earth, when the Son of Man returns to this planet to reign over it as King of Kings and LORD of lords.

"My kingdom is now not from hence" -but it is coming to "hence"

He did not say the planet would pass away (until after the thousand years), but the dominon of the devil will end, when the LORD takes His great power and reigns and cleanses this planet of all evil at His return.

The Parable of the Tares Explained
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
38 The field is the world [kosmos] , the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age [eon], and the reapers are the angels.
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom [this earth, for He takes His great power and reigns] all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father [in this earth]. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world [kosmos], and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world [kosmos] are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world [kosmos] that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Wow, that is one very well thought out response. How do you know that these words refer to the things you are speaking of? What legitimate proof do you have besides your own reasoning?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Wow, that is one very well thought out response. How do you know that these words refer to the things you are speaking of? What legitimate proof do you have besides your own reasoning?

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

When He takes His great power and reigns, His servants will fight.
At this time, we are to preach the Gospel of the coming kingdom, and to occupy till He comes, and His servants still do not fight: but at that time, His servants do fight and there will be no more tares, the spiritual children of the devil, in the kingdom of God in this earth.

Jesus came as the suffering servant the first time; the next time He comes as conquering King.

 

[Hidden Manna]

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

When He takes His great power and reigns, His servants will fight.
At this time, we are to preach the Gospel of the coming kingdom, and to occupy till He comes, and His servants still do not fight: but at that time, His servants do fight and there will be no more tares, the spiritual children of the devil, in the kingdom of God in this earth.

Jesus came as the suffering servant the first time; the next time He comes as conquering King.

And Jesus came in the glory of the Father in AD70 as conquering King.

One Coming with Two Phases

The fact is the Old Testament Jewish prophets never even heard of a second coming in the Old Testament. The Jews never had the concept of a (second coming) and since it was the Jews God’s prophets who first taught the notion of a Messiah, it seems quite reasonable to respect their inspired opinion more then anyone else’s today.

They say one short fulfillment period with two phases to it: a suffering humiliation phase and a victorious consummation phase. This is the way the Jews have always viewed it, therefore Jesus could also say. When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. (NIV Matthew 10:23) Jesus like the Old Testament prophets never distinguish between two different coming separated by thousands of years. This kind of language is not used by the Christ or his old testament prophets (see Isa. 35:4-6, 40:10-11, 61:1-2, 62:11, 63:1-6, 66:6-16; Zech. 14; and Mal.4:1-6)

There for before anyone in our day who is not inspired can assign verses to 2.000 years in our future, they must first prove to me from the old testament or new testament that the Jewish writers clearly distinguished between two different coming of Christ.

In fact the phrases “second coming” and “final coming” are not mentioned anywhere in scripture. It is a gentile concept that is totally alien to Biblical Judaism that is in the Bible. This is a vital point that is totally ignored today. The Jewish prophets never implied two comings divided by centuries. The only place in the NT which even comes close to teaching a second advent is Heb. 9:28 where it says Christ will (appear a second time).

This was using the Jewish symbolism of the High Priest at Yom Kippur when he took the blood into the holy place and then reappeared back outside the tabernacle (Temple) to announce that atonement had been accomplished. So my question would remain the same. Please show me were an old testament prophet clearly says there is a (second coming) many centuries away from the first appearing.

Jesus also makes this point when talking with the high priest Caiaphas.

And the high priest arose and said to Him, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?” But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Mathew 26:62-64) Notice here that Jesus said Caiaphas would see his return (not us). Jesus held the very same Jewish concept about his return as his Old Testament prophets. Jesus never distinguished between two different coming separated by thousands of years. He said Caiaphas would see his return.

There is another dilemma in scripture. Talking about the time of the end Paul said: Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (1Cor 10:11) According to Paul all the things that happen in the wilderness were examples to (them the first century saints) upon whom the ends of the world had come. End of what world? The end of the world of Judaism. No temple no system of Judaism.

These things were written for their admonition because it was their fore fathers who were scattered in the wilderness. We never had family scattered in the wilderness or baptized into Moses ( 1 Cor. 10:1-5) The first century saints were living at the end of the world, as Paul has clearly said. They were living in end time. How do I know this? Because the Covenant we live in has on end. Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, (Hebrew 13:20) You cannot put a end on a everlasting covenant, but you can on the covenant of the law which happen in AD-70.

The writer Of Hebrews also said speaking of Jesus. He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the world, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself (Heb. 9:28 KJV) Some Bible say (age or world) but the point is the same. This is the very same end Paul clearly says was upon the first century saints.

What happen a few short years after Paul and the writer of Hebrews said these words? The end of there know world, came to a end with the destruction of the temple and the system of Biblical Judaism.

As I have been saying before anyone in our day who is not inspired can assign verses to 2.000 years in our future, they must first prove to me from the old testament or new testament that the Jewish writers clearly distinguished between two different coming of Christ. Jesus never did (Mathew 26:62-64).

Just look at these scriptures. In Luke 4:18-20 the day of vengeance of our God is left out when compared to Isaiah’s version of this scripture. That is because the day of vengeance of our God was to be fulfilled according to Luke 21:20-24 and that was when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. When that happened was in 70 AD and that was also when all things which are written, may be fulfilled. So then in Luke 4:18-20 was when Jesus was ministering on earth and Luke 21 was when Jesus came in the clouds of judgment fulfilling the rest of Isaiah 61 about the day of vengeance of our God.

Christ came as a suffering servant in the physical realm and then He came as a conquering King in the spiritual realm on the Day of Vengeance in 70 AD. Just like the Father would use another nation to execute judgment on Israel when Israel had forsaken God in the Old Testament, so also did Jesus use the Roman army to destroy Jerusalem as a result of rejecting Him and persecuting the saints of the first century.

Luke 4
18”The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD.”

20Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

Isaiah 61

The Good News of Salvation

The Good News of Salvation
1 “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,
Because the LORD has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;

Luke 21

The Destruction of Jerusalem
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

[Hidden Manna]

Now can you tell me what exactly need David mean when he said:

Psalm 37:10 he writes, "For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more"

However does not Isaiah say in Chapter 65:20 that the sinner will be accursed if he lives to 100 years in the new heaven and earth.

) Isaiah 65:20 " No more shall an infant from there [live but a few] days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner [being] one hundred years old shall be accursed.

Yet inside the city of the new jerusalem

27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

While on the outside of the gates are sinners.

14 Blessed [are] those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside [are] dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Futurist need to twist what David said to make there view right but as I have shown it's nada.

Now what exactly did David mean and how does it fit into the light of what Isaiah said in 65:20 and what John said in Revelation 22:15


Maybe David was meaning about a army from another nation around Israel he destroyed in a little while from the time he said that. David did win many battles in his time.

David was speaking of the wick persons physical death. in Verse 35 which could have come right after a battle. He is speaking to the generation at that time and not as a worldwide event.

35 I have seen the wicked in great power, And spreading himself like a native green tree. * 36 Yet he passed away, and behold, he [was] no [more;] Indeed I sought him, but he could not be found.

Now does that mean we can take what David said and project it 3000 years after what he said.

Prophecy and Vision foretold to End

(Ezekiel 12:22-28) Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth? {23} Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision. {24} For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel. {25} For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD. {26} Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, {27} Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off. {28} Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord GOD.

In the Psalms David often speaks with the voice of Christ. Look at Psalms 22.
Jesus called the Pharisees and Sadducees "wicked" because of their trying to hold on to the Old Covenant and rejecting Him as Messiah.

Mat 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

From Jesus’ ministry the wicked was only for "a little while."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

In the Psalms David often speaks with the voice of Christ. Look at Psalms 22.
Jesus called the Pharisees and Sadducees "wicked" because of their trying to hold on to the Old Covenant and rejecting Him as Messiah.

Mat 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

From Jesus’ ministry the wicked was only for "a little while."

Hi Hidden Manna!!!! Long time no see!!


ACCCKKKK! I just saw how old this thread is!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The Gospel of John seems to muddy the waters saying "what if i keep him alive until i return?"

what would that matter if He was coming back soon?

Then again the Gospel of John seems like it was completed much later than the other gospels .

i have a unique mind . i can believe two to five conflicting theories all at once . so no worries .

bless .

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The thing here is that you spiritualize the Bible and that, to me, is dangerous. Once you spiritualize any scripture you open it up to mean whatever you want it to mean and this is clearly what preterists want it to mean in my opinion.

Thank you for your response.

From the way it looks to me, that is being done even by the non-Preterists who "literalized" the Bible to much.

Look at the RCs view of "the Eucharist" for example......

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Thank you for your response.

From the way it looks to me, that is being done even by the non-Preterists who "literalized" the Bible to much.

Look the RCs view of "the Eucharist" for example......

i think anything that can be fully literalized can be fully spiritualized .

but . i'm more into the scriptures when they're fully experiencialized .

bless .

 

[Notrash]

What I really am asking is where is Scriptural backing (actual verses and chapters from the Bible). And you have to remember that Jesus said that the disciples 'might' not be dead simply because Jesus God's Son does not know the date nor the time when the kingdom will come. Only God the Father knows that.

The scriptural support for the 'end times' referring to the end of the mosaic covenant, it's nation and the ordinances of 30-70 AD is found in Deut 4,5,18, 30-32 with an emphasis on 31:29; 32:20,29.

The mosaic covenant began when God took them by the hand and led them out of the slavery of egypt. (Jer 31:31..etc) 40 yrs later, Moses spoke and summarized the conditions of the covenant as he spoke to the people of Israel (now being a 'nation'; deut 27:9) During the existence of the nation it was prophesied that they would eventually fail and be utterly destroyed. (chapt 5) They would first go into captivity after knowing the blessings and cursings of the law (Deut 28,29, 30:1-4) Then after the captivity of Babylon (30:1-4) they would return from their captivity for the preparation of the coming of Messiah and the indwelling of God in their heart (30:5-8) Daniel,(9:11-15) and Neh 1 are confessions of the nations sins and the aknowledgment of the curses of the law of moses that were neccessary to bring the people back to the land after the captivity (Deut 30:1-4) Daniel was then shown a series of visions and dreams which would tell of the next 490 yrs plus the end of the end of the temple and desolation of the city.

Compare Deut 31:29 with Dan 10:14;

Deut 31:29
For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt [yourselves], and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

Deut 32:29
O that they were wise, [that] they understood this, [that] they would consider their latter end!


Dan 10:14;
Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision [is] for [many] days.
​

The "end times" prophecies of Dan and in the Prophets have their roots in the 'end times" of the mosaic covenant which represents the end of the corporal conditional covenants of compelled or rewarded behavior. This is replaced and superseded by the unconditional covenant of justification by faith (Abrahamic covenant) which was sealed in historical reality by the sacrifice of atonement of Christ.. nullifying the law .. to all who believe and receive (Rom 10:4). This was foretold even in the giving of the Covenant in Deut 18:15-18.

Deut 32 was I believe foretelling of the Roman invasion and desolation of Jerusalem/Judea. John Gill, likely among many others concur:

Introduction - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible, New Testament Commentary
who would show his resentment by the rejection of them,
by the calling of the Gentiles, and by bringing the nation of the
Romans upon them,

Thus, with Daniel being a further description of the end of the Mosaic covenant and the olivet being further and additional description of Danial and Moses' end' and since Revelation is associated with these things; it is confirmed that all these "end times" prophecies were fulfilled during the end of the Mosaic/Judaic age, covenant, nation, that was prophesied right within the time of it's giving and fulfilled as an aftermath of the Cross by the Romans of the 4th beast of Daniel.

Hope that helps.

 

[sciotamicks]

If we can't spiritualize the scriptures then where does that leave us?

Where is the kingdom?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If we can't spiritualize the scriptures then where does that leave us?

Where is the kingdom?

Great questions

 

[Moodshadow]

Would someone please help me understand how/why this thread is in the LDS section?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Would someone please help me understand how/why this thread is in the LDS section?

Huh?

 

[skylark1]

Would someone please help me understand how/why this thread is in the LDS section?

Please see this post:

Christian Forums - Announcements in Forum : Unorthodox Theology

 

[martymonster]

If we can't spiritualize the scriptures then where does that leave us?

Where is the kingdom?

Exactly right!

If God is spirit then just maybe His word is spirit too.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

[Moodshadow]

Please see this post:

Christian Forums - Announcements in Forum : Unorthodox Theology

Cool - thanks, Skylark!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Cool - thanks, Skylark!

 

[Gareth]

The presence of the Kingdom of God is an incredible thing, but oddly the media don't notice it, perhaps because the Kingdom is not of a worldly nature. No borders.

1John 5:19 says it all.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by seebs The presence of the Kingdom of God is an incredible thing, but oddly the media don't notice it, perhaps because the Kingdom is not of a worldly nature. No borders.

1John 5:19 says it all.

So does Luke 17:20

NKJV) Luke 17:20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation;