Full Preterism-Where is the scriptural evidence?

[JesusMartyr]

Here is the meaning of the word translated lightning in Luke 17:24.

G796 ἀστραπή astrapē as-trap-ay'
From G797; lightning; by analogy glare: - lightning, bright shining.​

All this is false because it is based on your false understanding of the word ἀστραπή. Here is another verse which clearly shows the correct translation, "lightning."

Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings [ἀστραπή] and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.​

Your understanding of all this is based on a false interpretation of the word, ἀστραπή.

You just called me a liar sir. You haven't a clue. Please desist from commenting on my posts if you think you have any right to tell me I'm wrong. I'm not here to argue with scoffers. You have no idea what you are arguing against and I won't be a part of your style.

 

[JesusMartyr]

The destruction of Jerusalem was a literal historical event. When did these events literally happen?

1. the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [Not the Roman army. DA]
2. Immediately after the tribulation of those days
3. shall the sun be darkened, and
4. the moon shall not give her light, and
5. the stars shall fall from heaven, and
6. the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
7. then shall appear the sign of the Son of man [Not the Roman army. DA] in heaven: and then shall
8. all the tribes of the earth mourn, and
9. they shall see the Son of man [Not the Roman army. DA] coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
10. And he shall send his angels
11. with a great sound of a trumpet, and
12. they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:27-31
(27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

All these things happened and are happening as we preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. to the world.
He whose eyes are opened will know these things by comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Don't scoff at the Word of God just because you don't grasp the picture He gives us. Pray for knowledge understanding and wisdom, then you will see how these things came to pass and are still coming to pass. It has already been explained to you in this thread, and you do not have the spirit to comprehend and are contentious and I'm not comfortable with your argumentative ways.

 

[IchoozJC]

You just called me a liar sir. You haven't a clue. Please desist from commenting on my posts if you think you have any right to tell me I'm wrong. I'm not here to argue with scoffers. You have no idea what you are arguing against and I won't be a part of your style.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think it would do you well to remember that you are on a public forum where there just might be folks that don't necessarily agree with your eschatology. I don't, but I've found the discussion interesting because I've never studied preterism. I can definitely see where you are coming from on some scriptures.

The big sticky for me is that so many verses seem to indicate that it is definitely a worldwide, public spectacle. I think DA has done a good job pointing this out, and I don't think he has been scoffing or calling you a liar. You are both just passionate about what you believe. My .02

 

[A New World]

The big sticky for me is that so many verses seem to indicate that it is definitely a worldwide, public spectacle. I think DA has done a good job pointing this out, and I don't think he has been scoffing or calling you a liar. You are both just passionate about what you believe. My .02

Your view of a worldwide, public spectacle is certainly the one most widely held.
This may seem like an obvious question: Have you read Scripture as though you were living at the time it was written?

For many Preterists, including myself, the application of the principle of "audience relevance" has played a major role in the development of our eschatology.

I will offer an example:
Jesus said: "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." (Matthew 24:14 NKJV)

My first approach to this verse is to ask, "To whom was Jesus speaking?"

I find he was specifically speaking to four of the disciples, "Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?” (Mark 13:3, 4 NKJV)

Later He expands His audience to include those living in their generation, "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." (Matthew 24:34 NKJV)

The next step is to define the word "world" and find how it was understood by His audience.

Here's one example, "And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered." (Luke 2:1 NKJV)

I am now confident of the meaning. In the New Testament the word "world" referred to the Roman Empire.

I then search to find if there is any inspired record of Mt. 24:14 being fulfilled in that generation.

Paul wrote, "because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth." (Colossians 1:5, 6 NKJV)

According to Paul, the "gospel" had been preached "in all the world."

So, how would you have viewed the prophecy of Jesus in Mt. 24:14 if you lived during that generation?

I hope this causes the wheels to turn a little and maybe you can attempt to apply this useful, and enlightening, principle.

God bless

 

[JesusMartyr]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think it would do you well to remember that you are on a public forum where there just might be folks that don't necessarily agree with your eschatology. I don't, but I've found the discussion interesting because I've never studied preterism. I can definitely see where you are coming from on some scriptures.

The big sticky for me is that so many verses seem to indicate that it is definitely a worldwide, public spectacle. I think DA has done a good job pointing this out, and I don't think he has been scoffing or calling you a liar. You are both just passionate about what you believe. My .02

All things are written as a parable and misunderstood by those who attempt to force "futuristic worldly events" into the meanings.

Every single scripture in the Olivet Prophecy was fulfilled. That isn't an "opinion" that is fact. Even in this short thread it's been proven doubtless over and over. I've never met a preterist before, let alone be passionate about "their" beliefs. But I AM passionate about what scriptures teach by the Holy Spirit and that is the only thing we all need to concentrate on. It just so happens that this is the FIRST time of read up on preterists, and I'm amazed, I didn't think any "group" had this understanding anymore what with all the dispensational "futurism" being pushed around as "Christian" on public forums. So know where I come from, I am very jealous of the Word of God and when someone says it means something it doesn't say, I fear for the souls of those who read the false teachers and false prophets.
The "prophecies" of people talking about world events is NOT of Jesus Christ. It is futuristic sensationalism of gloom and doom that comes from the misguided spirit of a man.
We TRY these spirits.
These 'spirits' have been preaching this "dispensational" futuristic ideas with their false prophets for nearly 200 years now, ever since the concept and teaching came out of Margaret McDonald's mouth at a Bible study in Glasgow Scotland in the mid 1800s. It was then carried into the Campbellite movement and on into the states. From that point, the Judahizers put the Jew Scoffield into place, making a commentary Bible that introduced that damnable heresy into the Church.
From that point, people began looking to the future in angst and trepidation, OPPOSITE to the Gospel message.
For a "CHRISTIAN" forum to allow such teachings to go on, knowing that the facts of this ugly doctrine are man-made, is appalling. So I say what needs to be said to warn of this dangerous wresting of scriptures.
Instead, throw out the creeds, the hand books, the self appointed false prophets, and all the "futurism" woes they seek to heap upon the sheep. Instead, let's fall on our faces in worship and thanksgiving and STEDFAST IMMOVABLE UNSHAKEABLE FAITH AND LOVE AND OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL as found in scriptures, as led by the Holy Spirit. NOT though, to follow after man's utterances and claims and futuristic tribulations and anguishes and wars and rumours of wars. That is not of God in the least.

Word to the wise dear ones.

 

[A New World]

JesusMartyr,
I can't thank you enough for those encouraging words!

I have been developing the Preterist view in my own study over the past ten years or so. With all the futurist opinions of Scripture it has been frustrating. When I see prophetic fulfillment everywhere as I read the NT, it stirs similar passions in me as I perceive is in you as I read your posts.

As we find ourselves in the minority, we are best served to remember Jesus' words to His disciples: “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves." (Matthew 10:16 NKJV)

If we have any hope of leading others to the truth of God's Word, we must do so with grace and humility. At least that's my opinion and has become my goal.
Since I believe we have truth on our side, we must remain disciplined as we patiently and wisely convey it in a way that others can receive.

Though I know very little about you, I encourage you and support you as we pursue truth.

God bless!

 

[IchoozJC]

I can't thank you enough for those encouraging words!

I have been developing the Preterist view in my own study over the past ten years or so. With all the futurist opinions of Scripture it has been frustrating. When I see prophetic fulfillment everywhere as I read the NT, it stirs similar passions in me as I perceive is in you as I read your posts.

As we find ourselves in the minority, we are best served to remember Jesus' words to His disciples: “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves." (Matthew 10:16 NKJV)

If we have any hope of leading others to the truth of God's Word, we must do so with grace and humility. At least that's my opinion and has become my goal.
Since I believe we have truth on our side, we must remain disciplined as we patiently and wisely convey it in a way that others can receive.

Though I know very little about you, I encourage you and support you as we pursue truth.

God bless!

I respect your opinion. But does it really come down to needing to be so divisive? Do you think believers today believing that Jesus is coming back soon are hindered or sidetracked by believing that? If anything it would seem that believing in the imminent return of Jesus would make people more proactive in their faith.

No offense, but your post reaks of spiritual snobbery that I see a lot here. Just because you travel a path less worn doesn't necessarily make you more important in God's eyes to another brother in Christ.

 

[Der Alte]

All these things happened and are happening as we preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. to the world.

I am still waiting for anyone to show me the literal fulfillment of Mat 24:27-31. Saying that it happened does not make it so! The early church was still looking for the advent of Jesus.

Origen [A.D. 185-230-254] Against Celsus Book 1 Chapter 5.5

Moreover our Lord, who is the truth, compared the power of His own glorious advent to lightning, in the words, “For as the lightning shineth from the height of heaven even to its height again, so will the coming of the Son of man be.”​

He whose eyes are opened will know these things by comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

That is what all false doctrines teach. When the Bible as written contradicts a false doctrine they claim it is SPAM-Fig, i.e. symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, or figurative anything but literal. They all can't be right. If we listen to all of them the entire Bible is figurative.

Don't scoff at the Word of God just because you don't grasp the picture He gives us. Pray for knowledge understanding and wisdom, then you will see how these things came to pass and are still coming to pass. It has already been explained to you in this thread, and you do not have the spirit to comprehend and are contentious and I'm not comfortable with your argumentative ways.

I have not scoffed at anything. I have been a Christian for almost 5 decades. I have knowledge, understanding and wisdom. I read both Biblical languages. You claim it has been explained to me in this thread. The only thing explained to me is it is all spiritual. I am no more argumentative or contentious than you are. I believe what I believe just as passionately as you do and I express them just as passionately as you do.

 

[Der Alte]

Here is the meaning of the word translated lightning in Luke 17:24.

G796 ἀστραπή astrapē as-trap-ay'
From G797; lightning; by analogy glare: - lightning, bright shining.​

All this is false because it is based on your false understanding of the word ἀστραπή. Here is another verse which clearly shows the correct translation, "lightning."

Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings [ἀστραπή] and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.​

Your understanding of all this is based on a false interpretation of the word, ἀστραπή.

You just called me a liar sir. You haven't a clue. Please desist from commenting on my posts if you think you have any right to tell me I'm wrong. I'm not here to argue with scoffers. You have no idea what you are arguing against and I won't be a part of your style.

No I did not! I said nothing which could reasonably be construed as saying or implying that anyone is a liar! This is a discussion forum if you consider discussion arguing perhaps you should consider taking yourself out of the discussion. You telling me I have don't have a clue and have no idea what I am arguing about is in fact insulting and arguing.

 

[A New World]

I respect your opinion. But does it really come down to needing to be so divisive? Do you think believers today believing that Jesus is coming back soon are hindered or sidetracked by believing that? If anything it would seem that believing in the imminent return of Jesus would make people more proactive in their faith.

No offense, but your post reaks of spiritual snobbery that I see a lot here. Just because you travel a path less worn doesn't necessarily make you more important in God's eyes to another brother in Christ.

No, we don't have to be divisive. We should challenge each other to defend what we believe.

Yes, I do think believers today are hindered by the futurist mentality. If one embraces the truth of Scripture there is freedom and liberty. With error comes bondage.

Please identify the specific area of my post that caused it to reak of spiritual snobbery. Whatever it was it was unintentional on my part.

I'm simply trying to pursue truth.

 

[IchoozJC]

I also respect your opinion. I have walked the "divisive" road. It always led to a dead end. When we open our mouths with insults and personal attacks our minds close and are diverted to unproductive diatribes. One may impress himself but that's as far as it goes.

Yes, of course modern futurists are hindered or sidetracked by believing the science fiction they're peddling. That's why we take the time and put forth the effort to engage them and challenge them to defend their misguided systems. My point is that we must not behave like they do when they rile against and insult us. That may be my personal opinion, but I think it glorifies Jesus.

"Spiritual snobbery that" you "see a lot here," really? And, I'm interested where you get the idea that I think I'm more important in God's eyes than another brother based on the few words I've offered. Please point to any comment I made that left that impression. If I came across that way it was unintentional. And, since I've only been here a few days, I don't think I've been influenced by the attitudes of others on this forum.

Again, we're on the same side when it comes to eschatology as far as I can tell so far. We certainly can't properly challenge the futurist if we are divisive ourselves. I simply wanted to offer advice. If you have considered it and choose to ignore it that's fine. No hard feelings on my part.

May God bless.

As we find ourselves in the minority, we are best served to remember Jesus' words to His disciples: “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves." (Matthew 10:16 NKJV)

If we have any hope of leading others to the truth of God's Word, we must do so with grace and humility. At least that's my opinion and has become my goal.
Since I believe we have truth on our side, we must remain disciplined as we patiently and wisely convey it in a way that others can receive.

The whole section above. Especially where you say "we have truth on our side". This was in response to another preterist's post that you liked. It's seems pretty clear that you are high-fiving someone you agree with which separates all us who don't agree with you. It sounds like getting others to believe in preterism is what the gospel boils down to to you. You argue with DA when you can clearly see he doesn't agree, but totally overlook the fact that he loves Jesus at least just as much as you. But then you make it sound like he's less spiritual than you.

And I know DA doesn't need me sticking up for him. That's not what I'm attempting to do. I just wish one time someone who believes themselves to be in some exclusive insider's club would stop and take a look at what they are saying. If you are truly born again, I think the way you approach peripheral doctrines is divisive and insulting to the Body.


Oh, and I never said I agree with preterism. I find it an interesting theory but I'm ignorant to most of it. Even if today I decided that Preterism was truth, I can't see how it would change my walk with Jesus unless I let in spiritual pride. Eschatology is not where the rubber meets the road.

 

[A New World]

IchoozJC,
You're correct and I apologize. Please let me explain.
It is always a pleasant surprise when Full Preterists bump into each other.
I was simply acknowledging JesusMartyr and encouraging him.
I failed to realize how others might view the post.
Futurists need no such encouragement since they have been in the extreme majority over the past few centuries.
My main concern is the pursuit of truth. I find that apologies and even small talk are sometimes necessary but I'd rather focus on Scripture.
I've mostly developed a thick skin over the past decade as these types of accusations and misunderstandings occur.
Please go back and read my post to you #164 and respond if you would. I'm always interested in the futurist defense as I usually learn something.
In the future as you read anything I post read the words, "In my opinion," after whatever I write even when I don't include that phrase.
Thanks and God bless.

 

[A New World]

Since the title of this thread is "Full Preterism - Where is the scriptural evidence?"
I will offer some passages from the book to the Hebrews that I believe will provide some of that evidence. Of course I welcome any futurist objection.

The inspired writer of Hebrews informed, or reminded, his audience that they were living in the "last days."

"God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds." (Hebrews 1:1, 2 NKJV)

This audience was also informed that the first covenant (the Mosaic Covenant), was ready to vanish away. The word "ready" means, "times imminent and soon to come pass."

"In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." (Hebrews 8:13 NKJV)

The following passage again shows the imminence of the judgment of God upon that crooked and perverse generation:

"For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

And to the faithful:

"For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: “For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry." (Hebrews 10:30, 31, 36, 37 NKJV)

The next passage reveals the purpose behind everything, the soon arrival of the Messianic kingdom.

"See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:25-29 NKJV)

Notice the present tense, "the removal of those things that ARE BEING shaken." Those of the first century AD were experiencing the shaking of "things that are made." They were also told that the shaking was taking place so "that the things which cannot be shaken" would "remain."

It's clear that these events were occurring in their day.

Question: What were the things that were being shaken, and the things which could not be shaken?

Answer: Things pertaining to the old order were being shaken, they would soon be removed, and that generation was "receiving A KINGDOM which cannot be shaken," things pertaining to the new order.

The kingdom they were receiving in the mid first century AD was the kingdom of Messiah, the New Covenant kingdom. Therefore the kingdom that was experiencing a shaking and would soon vanish away was the Old Covenant kingdom.

The book of Hebrews is about transition. That generation was experiencing a transition from the obsolete Old Covenant age to the better and enduring New Covenant age. From the old kingdom to the new kingdom.

 

[A New World]

Evidence that I believe provides more answers to the question contained in the title to this thread:
"Full Preterism - Where is the scriptural evidence?"

I have read many opinions regarding the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation chapters 7 & 14.

Who are/were the 144,000 according to the Bible?

I believe Scripture says they were those living in the first century AD during the generation of the apostles.

The following are the Scriptures on which I base my opinion:

"And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed." (Revelation 7:4 NKJV)

Notice John said the 144,000 were sealed. Were the first century AD believers sealed?

Paul said they were:

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30 NKJV)

"Who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee." (II Corinthians 1:22 NKJV)

John said the 144,00 were called "first fruits," and they were "redeemed from among men."

"They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb." (Revelation 14:3,4 NKJV)

Were the first century believers called first fruits?

Yes, notice that both Paul and James refer to themselves and their audiences as firstfruits:

"Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body." (Romans 8:23 NKJV)

"Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures." (James 1:18 NKJV)

Remember, John said the 144,000 were sealed firstfruits and they were of the twelve tribes of Israel. (Rev. 7:4)

James wrote to the twelve tribes of Israel and referred to them as firstfruits.

"James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings."

And again,

"Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures." (James 1:1, 18 NKJV)

John said of the 144,000, "these were redeemed from among men." (Rev. 14:4)
In other words they were a "remnant."

Paul said:
"Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved." (Rom. 9:27)

"Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace." (Rom. 11:5)

Conclusion: Paul, James and all of the believers in the first century AD were included in John's 144,000, from the twelve tribes of Israel, they were considered first fruits, the remnant, and they were sealed by God for the day of redemption.

There can be no other time period in which there can be FIRSTfruits than the FIRST century AD!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Thta is what Josephus witnessed:

Zeph 1:18
Moreover their silver, moreover their gold, not shall be able to rescue them in day of wrath of YHWH,
and in fire of jealously of Him shall be devoured all of the land.
[James 5:3]

2 Peter 3:12
Toward seeming/expecting and hastening the Parousia of the, of the God, Day, thru which heavens being fired/purou-menoi <4448> (5746) shall be being dissolved
and elements/stoiceia <4747> burning being melted.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The magnificent Temple that Herod had built was completely destroyed as the fires raged inside and out. These fires were so hot that the gold fittings, and the gold gilding inside and on it's outside walls melted and ran into the cracks between and in the stones.
​

I know that the temple was destroyed, ca. 70 AD, but when did all these things happen?

1. The Son of Man coming like lightning comes out of the east, and shining even unto the west.
2. Tribulation which precedes
10. The angels gathering together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
​

Mat 24:27-31
(27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
​

Why not ask the apostate unbelieving Jews that, since Jesus spoke those prophecies to them, including this covenantle parable in Luke 16:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7306890
Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell. ..................

The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking......

This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!


.

 

[Der Alte]

Why not ask the apostate unbelieving Jews that, since Jesus spoke those prophecies to them, including this covenantle parable in Luke 16:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7306890

Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell. ..................

The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking......

This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!

Every early church father who quotes the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual not a parable.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.

Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.

1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1

On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.

Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]

In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.

The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics

A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.

Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)

But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Every early church father who quotes the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual not a parable.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.

​

So who cares about their interpretation of it? Do you go along with all their interpretations of Biblical prophecy?
The RCC along with many Apostolic churces agrees with most of them also, and look at where it has gotten them

http://www.christianforums.com/t6730673/
Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7263824-19/#post47928988
Did the ECFs really know/understand the Scriptures better?


.

 

[Der Alte]

So who cares about their interpretation of it? Do you go along with all their interpretations of Biblical prophecy?
The RCC along with many Apostolic churces agrees with most of them also, and look at where it has gotten them

http://www.christianforums.com/t6730673/
Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7263824-19/#post47928988

Did the ECFs really know/understand the Scriptures better?

If you think the ECF were wrong, I suggest you start proving it. The opinions of some pseudonymous poster on CF 6 years ago is not credible evidence. The ECF were native Greek speakers. Who cares what the opinions of anonymous posters are without credible, verifiable, historical evidence e.g. ECF.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If you think the ECF were wrong, I suggest you start proving it. The opinions of some pseudonymous poster on CF 6 years ago is not credible evidence.
The ECF were native Greek speakers.
Who cares what the opinions of anonymous posters are without credible, verifiable, historical evidence e.g. ECF.

And how many of those translated the NT Greek into english? Just look at the multitudes of different Bible versions that come about from translated the various Greek texts.

And how about the Hebrew?

Ancient Hebrew Research Center - Home Page

In the world, past and present, there are two major types of cultures; the Hebrew (or eastern) culture and the Greek (or western) culture.
Both of these cultures view their surroundings, lives, and purpose in ways which would seem foreign to the other. With the exception of a few Bedouin nomadic tribes living in the Near East today, the ancient Hebrew culture has disappeared.
The Greek culture describes objects in relation to the object itself.
The Hebrew culture describes objects in relation to the Hebrew himself..........


.

 

[Der Alte]

And how many of those translated the NT Greek into english? Just look at the multitudes of different Bible versions that come about from translated the various Greek texts.

Irrelevant.

And how about the Hebrew?

Ancient Hebrew Research Center - Home Page

In the world, past and present, there are two major types of cultures; the Hebrew (or eastern) culture and the Greek (or western) culture.
Both of these cultures view their surroundings, lives, and purpose in ways which would seem foreign to the other. With the exception of a few Bedouin nomadic tribes living in the Near East today, the ancient Hebrew culture has disappeared.
The Greek culture describes objects in relation to the object itself.
The Hebrew culture describes objects in relation to the Hebrew himself..........
.

I looked for the identity of the person(s) who maintain that site but I could not find it. Neither could I find the language qualifications of the person(s) who maintain that site.

Not everything that is posted on the internet is true.