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yeshuasavedme said:buddy mack said:It has been the last days of this earth's days since Jesus Christ came to inhabit human flesh.
The earth has a week of 'thousands'.
The last Day is the Sabbath Rest of this present earth before the heavens and the earth are melted, being on fire, with fervent heat, and the heavens are rolled up as a scroll and a new heavens and a new earth are made from the very same elements that the Creator created in the beginning of the weeks.
A week has a beginning, a middle, an end, and a last day.
Jesus Christ came in flesh to end the first death of separation -from the Living Spirit- in the last days of earth's appointed days.
He came at the beginning of the fifth millemmium.
When He returns to reign at the "Times of Refreshing" =the Last Day and the Sabbath for this earth, then it will be the truly last day of this present creation.
He taught us to pray; "Thy kingdom come Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven"; and He told us to occupy 'till He come' and to preach the Gospel of the kingdom.
'His kingdom is coming'; if you are not in His kingdom by being born from above by repenting and receiving His Spirit of adoption, then you will be a cast away in the everlasting fire. "Repent and be in His kingdom"! -"or be left 'out' -forever"!
That! is the message we have as Believers.
His kingdom is coming to this earth and His will shall be done in this earth, as it is in heaven! And it is coming 'soon'; though the promise was made three thousand years ago. It is coming without remedy; suddenly; without warning; so if you will be in His kingdom, then be redeemed now, 'today', while it is 'the day of salvation' -'tomorrow' will be too late!
That is the Gospel!
The problems with the traditional view of the literal heavens and earth being destroyed, buy literal fire, if the literal heavens and earth were NOT destroyed by water.
The apostle Peter makes a distribution of the world into heaven and earth, and saith they were destroyed with water, and perished. (2 Peter 3:5-6)
We know that neither the fabric nor substance of the one or other was literally destroyed, but only the men that liveth on the earth was destroyed. The apostle goes on to tells us in (verse 7) of the heaven and earth then, were ready to be destroyed by Fire.
If that heaven and earth that was destroyed by water were the inhabitants of the world, were does Peter say he was changing context and shifts gears in verse 7 to a literal physical world?
It is certain that the apostle Peter intends by the world, with its heaven, and earth (verses. 5, 6), which was destroyed; is the same kind, he intends by the heavens and the earth that were to be consumed and destroyed by fire in (verse. 7); It is certain that by the flood, the world, or the fabric of heaven and earth, was not literally destroyed, but only the inhabitants of the world; and therefore the destruction intimated to succeed by fire is not of the substance of the literal heavens and the earth, but the inhabitants of the world.
Jesus also said: I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? (Luke 12:49) Paul goes on to say that God would bring a righteous judgment on the Jews in his day, who were troubling the saints. This would happen when Jesus was revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(2 Thessalonians 1:1-8) John speaking of this very same event had this to say. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Revelation 20:9) Where was this beloved city were fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them all?
The beloved city of the Jews called Jerusalem. The writer of Hebrews said: For our God (is) a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29)
The time of this creation of the heaven and earth that Peter tells us about are mentioned in Isaiah 51:16. Planting the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth, was performed by God when He divided the sea (ver. 15) and gave the law (ver. 16), and said to Zion, Thou art my people; that is, when He took the children of Israel out of Egypt, and formed them in the wilderness into a church and state; then He planted the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth: that is, brought forth order, and government.
Hebrews 12 speaks of the passing of this heaven and earth, established at Sinai, and the deliverance of the unshakable kingdom of God, the church, 12:21-28. Peter tells them, that after the destruction of this same heaven and earth that he speaks of (verse 7), We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, etc. They had this expectation. But what is that promise? Where may we find it? We find it in Isaiah 65:17-19.
For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, and her people a joy will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.
God brought the flood because mankind was evil every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. God brought the flood because of SIN. But in Genesis 8:21 God looked down through time; knowing the imagination of mans heart is evil from youth God vowed to never again destroy every living creature. God destroyed the world by the flood because the world was wicked. But God knew that man would not change therefore he vowed to never again destroy the world! Psalms 78; Psalms 96:10; Psalms 119:89-90; Ecclesiastes 1:4; Isaiah 45:17; Now the New Testament unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus (throughout all ages, world without end Amen). (Ephesians 3:21 JKV)
Question
We know that neither the fabric nor substance of the one or other was literally destroyed, but only the men that liveth on the earth was destroyed. The apostle goes on to tells us in (verse 7) of the heaven and earth then, were ready to be destroyed by Fire.
(1) If the heaven and earth that was destroyed by water were NOT literally destroyed but the inhabitants of the world, were does Peter say he was changing context and shifts gears in verse 7 to mean the literal physical world?
Paul in his letter to the church of Thessalonians said God would bring a righteous judgment on the Jews in his day, who were troubling the saints. Which we say God did on Judgment day in 70 A.D.
(2) Were does Paul say this righteous judgment on the Jews of his day who were troubling the saints could happen thousands of years away from his days? My Bible says. Paul was looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ in his day (Titus 2:13)
Hidden Manna said:Whoever you are quoting is wrong -there is no way the Word says what they are saying.yeshuasavedme said:The problems with the traditional view of the literal heavens and earth being destroyed, buy literal fire, if the literal heavens and earth were NOT destroyed by water.
The apostle Peter makes a distribution of the world into heaven and earth, and saith they were destroyed with water, and perished. (2 Peter 3:5-6)
The heavens did not perish with water! The water above the heaven did come down to earth and hasn't gone back!
The heavens and the earth which are now shall be melted with fervent heat -the heavens shall be rolled up as a garment, being on fire will melt with fervent heat.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The elements will be melted, says the Word of God -an atomic meltdown.
The heavens rolled up as a scroll describes exactly, a nuclear reaction.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Gen 7:11; In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Great chunks of the earth were ripped out in the explosion of the great deep, and the heaven was rent when the waters above were sent crashing down.
The chunks of this earth that were blasted out into space, orbit, still, as the asteroids, and meteors, and debree, and enter earth as meteorites, coming 'back home', occaisionally.
yeshuasavedme said:Hidden Manna said:Whoever you are quoting is wrong -there is no way the Word says what they are saying.
The heavens did not perish with water! The water above the heaven did come down to earth and hasn't gone back!
The heavens and the earth which are now shall be melted with fervent heat -the heavens shall be rolled up as a garment, being on fire will melt with fervent heat.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The elements will be melted, says the Word of God -an atomic meltdown.
The heavens rolled up as a scroll describes exactly, a nuclear reaction.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Gen 7:11; In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Great chunks of the earth were ripped out in the explosion of the great deep, and the heaven was rent when the waters above were sent crashing down.
The chunks of this earth that were blasted out into space, orbit, still, as the asteroids, and meteors, and debree, and enter earth as meteorites, coming 'back home', occaisionally.
Greek Word for Elements
The heaven and earth have been a big problem for those who dont believe Jesuss words. The Greek word for elements used here in 2 Peret 3:12 is stoicheia, and it appears in the NT only seven times. When you see the terms like elements, ask yourself what this means? In Youngs Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the literal meaning of the word is element, rudiment, principle. In other words, these are the elements of religious common to the worship of the Jews in Israel.
Futurists believe the elements of the physical heavens and earth were going to melt away or be burned up, especially in 2 Peter 3. Does this word elements refer to the scientific idea of the elements of matter, all the atoms of the universe? The Bible does not say so.
We will first look into seven other passages were the same word elements or in Greek stoicheia is used. I am using Young_s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible. 1. Gal. 4:3, 9 - So also we, when we were babes, under the elements of the world were in servitude...and now, having known God and rather being known by God how turn ye again unto the weak and poor elements to which anew ye desire to be in servitude? Notice Paul uses the word twice here.
This context clearly Paul is asking the Jews of old who had been under the old law of Moses verse 3-5 and the Gentiles who had served idols in verse 8 how can they again return to those weak and poor elements which could not save. the Jews were held in bondage to the old law of Moses or the tradition of men. (In wont go there this time) Paul exhorted the Christian brethren not to return to the bondage to that Law.
The Law was our tutor to bring us into Christ that we might be justified by faith (Gal. 3:23-24). No man could keep that Law perfectly. The Gentiles served worthless idols. Both had been in bondage to the stoicheia of the world. Therefore, the use of elements is not about the physical world.
3. Heb. 5:12 - For even owing to be teachers, because of the time, again ye have need that one teach you what are the elements of the beginning of the oracles of God, and ye have become having need of milk, and not of strong food. This writer laments to the Jewish Christians (Hebrews) the fact that they had not grown in Christ as they should. The writer says they need someone to teach them again with milk, not solid food in elementary principles of Gods oracles before becoming teachers and mature. Obviously, this stoicheia is not about atoms or the creation of the universe.
4. 2 Peter 3:10-13 - And it will comethe day of the Lordas a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up. All these, then, being dissolved, what kind of persons doth it behove you to be in holy behaviours and pious acts? waiting for and hasting to the presence of the day of God, by which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements with burning heat shall melt; and for new heavens and a new earth according to His promise we do wait, in which righteousness doth dwell
Paul uses the very same word elements or in Greek stoicheia here. The fast is elements does not, in its verse and other previous passages, ever refer to the physical universe. Nowhere do the Scriptures teach that this physical creation will be destroyed. Bible itself is in harmony as the Scriptures interpret the Scriptures.
Psalms 78:** And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the (earth which he has established for ever).
Psalms 96:10 Say among the heathen that the Lord reigns (the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved).
Psalms 119:89-90 For ever O Lord thy word is settled in heaven, Thy faithulness is unto all generations thou has established the (earth and it abideth).
Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation come but (the earth abideth for ever).
Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation you shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
Now the New Testament Ephesians 3:21 unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus (throughout all ages, world without end Amen). JKV
Futurist are trying so hard to show the preterist view is wrong they dont read their bible.
(1) Please show us were the same word elements or in Greek stoicheia is used by any of the Jewish writers in the other verses to mean this physical creation will be destroyed.
(2) Please show us in Psalms were is says this physical creation will be destroyed.
Read in Gen. 8:21, after the great flood God looked down the flow of time and into mans heart and said I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of mans heart is evil from his youth (total depravity), and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done. This one is not speaking only about the flood in Gen. 9:15.
God would never again curse the ground nor destroy every living creature. Could God reverse His promise? Well according to some people here he will. But we are here to tell you He cannot lie. (Hebrews 6:18)
yeshuasavedme said:Hidden Manna said:but they shall be restored as His people by His power after the Church is taken out of the way for the final week -of Daniel's weeks, until Messiah reigns.
Two Preterist views on Daniel 9
There are basically two preterist views on Daniel nine. One puts a gap of a generation between the 69th and 70th weeks. The other has no gap. I believe that gapless theory was the interpretation of the majority of the church for eighteen centuries until dispensationalism came along.
Ok, I will try to explain the two preterist theories I have encountered concerning Daniels 70 weeks.
Noe/Stevens:
These folks have a gapless 70 weeks. They put the cross at the middle of the 70th week. Their reasoning comes from Daniel 9:27.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.
Daniel 9:27 (NKJV)
What brings an end to the sacrifice is not the events in A.D. 66 but the crucifixion of Christ. I suppose the cross did end the need for sacrifice in Gods eyes, however, as you know, the daily sacrifices continued until A.D. 66 (Dan 12:11), and the total cessation of sacrifices did not occur until A.D. 70. So, from a certain perspective this theory is plausible.
Now, what about the week of confirming the covenant? I know futurists interpret this as cutting or making a covenant with many people for only one week of years. However, most translations I have encountered use the word confirm not make here. The only translation I found that uses the phrase he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week is the NASB. However, the dispensational bias of this translation is a bit startling.
This leaves us with 3 _ years before the cross for confirming the covenant and 3 _ years after the cross for confirming the covenant. According to Noe this corresponds to the time when the Gospel of the kingdom (New Covenant) was preached solely to the Jews. This encompasses the ministry of Jesus and the 3 _ year period after until the gospel was freed to go to the gentiles.
Now, what about this mess with the Romans and the apostate and unbelieving Jews that preceded A.D. 70? Noe relegates this to Daniels time of the end. That is the 1,209- 1,335 days that Daniel speaks of in Daniel 12:11.
24 Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate. (Daniel 9:24-27 NKJV)
Now, on to Kings timeline. Notice it begins with the decree to rebuild the temple and it ends with the destruction of the temple and the holy city.
King begins his timeline with the decree of Artaxerxes in 445 B.C. and ends the 69th week at the same point you do, the crucifixion of Christ. I believe this is the same as your timeline.
Then there is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks albeit a small gap of less than 40 years.
Then the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The premillennial view of the prince who is to come is that this is some sort of Antichrist who will appear in some future day. Yet, look back at verse 25, and you will see the prince clearly identified. It is the Lord Himself.
This passage says the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Who were these people? Well, who were Gods people at the time of Daniel? It was the Jews. You might ask was it not Titus, the Roman general who destroyed Jerusalem and the temple? No, history records that vast majority of the destruction that came in this final time came at the hands of the Jews themselves. They desecrated the temple and killed each other in the madness of this final hour. Titus merely mopped up.
Verse 27 says that during this 70th week the prince will confirm (And the word here is not cut or make a covenant. This is simply not the covenantal language that probably would have been used here if an entirely new covenant had been made for a week of years.) a covenant with many.
How could this refer to the destruction and abominations that came during this time? Think about what was happening just before this time of the end. First the temple was still standing, the sacrifices and rituals were still being performed. To the unbelieving and apostate Jews this was a very great sign that they were right and the Christians were wrong. When the Law free gospel was preached, all they had to do was point to the Temple and say that the Law and thus the Old Covenant was still in effect. Moreover, the presence of the Temple gave them a feeling of invincibility. How could Rome prevail when Gods presence (as represented by the temple) is with us?
Second, just before this time many of the church leaders were taken out of the way. James, the leader of the church in Jerusalem was executed and Paul was imprisoned. The early church was not only facing the wrath of the Jews but also of Nero. What would you think God was saying by all this if you were a Jew at this time? You would think the New Covenant was a sham.
Then suddenly confirmation of the New Covenant and vindication for the early believers came in the most powerful way.
What then are the abominations that Daniel speaks of in verse 27? Did they happen? Absolutely! The Holy place was desecrated by Jewish zealots before Titus marched on Jerusalem. They desecrated the temple with murder and all sorts of blasphemy. In fact the High Priest Ananus was quoted as saying certainly it would have been good for me to die before I had seen the house of God full of so many abominations.
Moreover, the daily sacrifices in the Temple indeed ceased during this time just as prophesied.
These things did happen. Therefore, history itself is one of the strongest proofs of Preterism. You cant argue with history.
Now, some say that the Temple will be rebuilt so all these things can happen again? Where is the logic in that?
Let me end by quoting Max King on the matter.
The attempt of premillenarians to rebuild earthly Jerusalem and restore the animal sacrifice system and posit this as the fulfillment of Israels promised future contradicts every prophesy in the Old Testament and every eschatological scripture written in the New Testament, as well as the facts of history that confirm the complete fulfillment of all post-Pentecost futurism with in the time frame of the iron mixed with clay beast and the seventy weeks of Daniel.
Hidden Manna said:yeshuasavedme said:...
Read in Gen. 8:21, after the great flood God looked down the flow of time and into mans heart and said I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of mans heart is evil from his youth (total depravity), and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done. This one is not speaking only about the flood in Gen. 9:15.
God would never again curse the ground nor destroy every living creature. Could God reverse His promise? Well according to some people here he will. But we are here to tell you He cannot lie. (Hebrews 6:18)
You twist Scripture -and your 'elements' is a great private interpretation of the passage, which is explained by Scripture, itself, as meaning the elements that the LORD made that He formed all things from. It is the elements that will melt with fervent heat, when the heavens pass away with a loud noise -as in nuclear explosion! -but I'll post the elements discussion next post, as I think these need to be kept short for readability.
God did not say what you say He said -again!
Genesis 8:20-22 ... and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
Genesis 9:
8 Then God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him, saying: 9 "And as for Me, behold, I establish My covenant with you and with your *descendants after you, 10 and with every living creature that is with you: the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you, of all that go out of the ark, every beast of the earth. 11 Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth."
...the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh.
Next time -He destroys the entire creation by melting the elements -the same elements are then regenerated and the New heavens and the New earth is formed from the same elements that are melted with fervent heat, when the heavens and the earth that now is, passes away with a great noise!
yeshuasavedme said:Hidden Manna said:You twist Scripture -and your 'elements' is a great private interpretation of the passage, which is explained by Scripture, itself, as meaning the elements that the LORD made that He formed all things from. It is the elements that will melt with fervent heat, when the heavens pass away with a loud noise -as in nuclear explosion! -but I'll post the elements discussion next post, as I think these need to be kept short for readability.
God did not say what you say He said -again!
Genesis 8:20-22 ... and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
Genesis 9:
8 Then God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him, saying: 9 "And as for Me, behold, I establish My covenant with you and with your *descendants after you, 10 and with every living creature that is with you: the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you, of all that go out of the ark, every beast of the earth. 11 Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth."
...the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh.
Next time -He destroys the entire creation by melting the elements -the same elements are then regenerated and the New heavens and the New earth is formed from the same elements that are melted with fervent heat, when the heavens and the earth that now is, passes away with a great noise!
with liberty!
Bible Believers believe the elements of the physical heavens and earth are going to dissolve, melting by fervent heat, as 2 Peter 3 says; This word elements melting with fervent heat refers to the elements that this creation is formed of, and the heavens and the earth that now is, is reserved to pass away by fire, and with a great noise, and the heavens will be rolled up as a scroll, and a new heavens and a new earth are to be made from the very elements that are dissolved, for God tells us so in His Word:
The Bible does indeed tell us so!
With a wave of the preterist wand, the Word of God is dismissed as not literal, not true; but the Word of God is not of any private interpretation -and preterism is the privatist of the privates of twistings and contortions to deny the plain Word.
Many books are written to dismiss, twist and deny the Words of God, and are pasted in volumes on these boards -plagarized by the volumes- to try to prove that God really does not mean what He says at all:
but 'midnight' is coming, and the preterist coach will turn into the pumpkin that it is! while we who watch and pray, living godly sober lives, will escape the turning upside down of the globe on which we dwell, the reversing of the poles, the staggering and wobbling of it as it is moved out of its place, the sun shining seven times brighter than it does, the moon shining as the sun in its strength, and men being burned with the heat, so that if the LORD did not shorten the 24 hour day by a third of it no flesh would be saved! the waves and sea will be roaring; plagues, pestilences, wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines as never before on this planet will all come to the inhabitants of this earth, while those who escaped are with the LORD, in the heavenly temple, in their regenerated bodies enjoying their week of consecration as priests in their regenerated bodies, which are the holy garments of our priesthood.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
pass away; parerchomai
1) to go past, pass by
a) of persons moving forward
1) to pass by
b) of time
1) an act continuing for a time
c) metaph.
1) to pass away, perish
But [1161] de
the day [2250] hemera
of the Lord [2962] kurios
will come [2240] heko
as [5613] hos
a thief [2812] kleptes
in [1722] en
the night; [3571] nux
in [1722] en
the which [3739] hos
the heavens [3772] ouranos
shall pass away [3928] parerchomai 1) to pass away, perish
with a great noise, [4500] rhoizedon 1) with a loud noise
and [1161] de
the elements [4747] stoicheion
shall melt [3089] luo ...3) to loosen, undo, dissolve, anything bound, tied, or compacted together a) an assembly, i.e. to dismiss, break up...
with fervent heat, [2741] kausoo 1) to burn up, set fire to ...
the earth [1093] ge 2) the ground, the earth as a standing place 3) the main land as opposed to the sea or water 4) the earth as a whole a) the earth as opposed to the heavens b) the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals
also [2532] kai
and [2532] kai
the works [2041] ergon
that are therein [1722] en
(with Strongs #) [846] autos
shall be burned up. [2618] katakaio 1) to burn up, consume by fire
Elements: stoicheion
1) any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal
a) the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds
b) the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe
c) the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside d) the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline
The heavens and the earth will pass away with a great noise, and the elements being on fire will melt with fervent heat -and the LORD will make a new heavens and new earth in which there is righteousness, only.
yeshuasavedme said:Hidden Manna said:You twist Scripture -and your 'elements' is a great private interpretation of the passage, which is explained by Scripture, itself, as meaning the elements that the LORD made that He formed all things from. It is the elements that will melt with fervent heat, when the heavens pass away with a loud noise -as in nuclear explosion! -but I'll post the elements discussion next post, as I think these need to be kept short for readability.
There is not enough nuclear bombs that could ever be made that would blow up this planet. Nuclear bombs would not even come close to what it would take to completely destroy this planet into a bunch of pieces. Even the sun blowing up would not do that, why because God said this earth is forever.
Psalms 78:69
And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever .
Psalms 104:5
[You who] laid the foundations of the earth , So [that] it should not be moved forever ,
Ecclesiast. 1:4
[One] generation passes away, and [another] generation comes; But the earth abides forever .
yeshuasavedme said:Hidden Manna said:You twist Scripture -and your 'elements' is a great private interpretation of the passage, which is explained by Scripture, itself, as meaning the elements that the LORD made that He formed all things from. It is the elements that will melt with fervent heat, when the heavens pass away with a loud noise -as in nuclear explosion! -but I'll post the elements discussion next post, as I think these need to be kept short for readability.
God did not say what you say He said -again!
Genesis 8:20-22 ... and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
Genesis 9:
8 Then God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him, saying: 9 "And as for Me, behold, I establish My covenant with you and with your *descendants after you, 10 and with every living creature that is with you: the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you, of all that go out of the ark, every beast of the earth. 11 Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth."
...the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh.
Next time -He destroys the entire creation by melting the elements -the same elements are then regenerated and the New heavens and the New earth is formed from the same elements that are melted with fervent heat, when the heavens and the earth that now is, passes away with a great noise!
You keep saying that I twist the scriptures about elements, but it is not I it is you. Look at where Paul uses the word elements of the world and then ends up associating it with observing days and months and seasons and years. Paul is speaking about the law.
Galatians 4:1 Now I say [that] the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!" 7Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. 8But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.
9But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how [is it that] you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years.
Not only do you twist elements but you also twist the meaning of heaven. The OC law and heaven are of the same thing.
Planting of Heaven and earth
In describing what took place after God parted the sea and brought the Hebrew people out of Egypt;
Isiah 51:16
And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, You are My people.
Notice how God describes the deliverance of the Hebrews out of Egypt, and the Giving of the Law as the planting of heavens and earth
The creation of Heavens and Earth in Isaiah 51:16 can not be referring to physical creation, for that had already occurred long before God brought Israel out of Egypt.
God brought the Jews into the wilderness, formed them into a covenant nation, firmly establishing them as His people.
God called that process the Planting of Heaven and earth
This is the very same planting of Heaven and earth the Writer of Hebrews is referring to when referring to its destruction. The end is the destruction of the Heavens and earth, of old covenant Judaism, that God created after He parted the sea.
Based on the fact that the scriptures teach again and again and again that the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth its self are all to continue forever (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21) , the conclusion that the heaven and earth that Jesus & the apostles all taught was coming to an end was indeed the heaven and earth of operational Biblical Judaism, is the only conclusion that rests in harmony with the rest of scripture.
Now, If you disagree, as I expect you will, please show me how God created the heavens and earth AFTER he parted the sea in Isaiah 51:16.
yeshuasavedme said:yeshuasavedme said:With a wave of the preterist wand, the Word of God is dismissed as not literal, not true; but the Word of God is not of any private interpretation -and preterism is the privatist of the privates of twistings and contortions to deny the plain Word.
Many books are written to dismiss, twist and deny the Words of God, and are pasted in volumes on these boards -plagarized by the volumes- to try to prove that God really does not mean what He says at all:
but 'midnight' is coming, and the preterist coach will turn into the pumpkin that it is! while we who watch and pray, living godly sober lives, will escape the turning upside down of the globe on which we dwell, the reversing of the poles, the staggering and wobbling of it as it is moved out of its place, the sun shining seven times brighter than it does, the moon shining as the sun in its strength, and men being burned with the heat, so that if the LORD did not shorten the 24 hour day by a third of it no flesh would be saved! the waves and sea will be roaring; plagues, pestilences, wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines as never before on this planet will all come to the inhabitants of this earth, while those who escaped are with the LORD, in the heavenly temple, in their regenerated bodies enjoying their week of consecration as priests in their regenerated bodies, which are the holy garments of our priesthood.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
pass away; parerchomai
1) to go past, pass by
a) of persons moving forward
1) to pass by
b) of time
1) an act continuing for a time
c) metaph.
1) to pass away, perish
But [1161] de
the day [2250] hemera
of the Lord [2962] kurios
will come [2240] heko
as [5613] hos
a thief [2812] kleptes
in [1722] en
the night; [3571] nux
in [1722] en
the which [3739] hos
the heavens [3772] ouranos
shall pass away [3928] parerchomai 1) to pass away, perish
with a great noise, [4500] rhoizedon 1) with a loud noise
and [1161] de
the elements [4747] stoicheion
shall melt [3089] luo ...3) to loosen, undo, dissolve, anything bound, tied, or compacted together a) an assembly, i.e. to dismiss, break up...
with fervent heat, [2741] kausoo 1) to burn up, set fire to ...
the earth [1093] ge 2) the ground, the earth as a standing place 3) the main land as opposed to the sea or water 4) the earth as a whole a) the earth as opposed to the heavens b) the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals
also [2532] kai
and [2532] kai
the works [2041] ergon
that are therein [1722] en
(with Strongs #) [846] autos
shall be burned up. [2618] katakaio 1) to burn up, consume by fire
Elements: stoicheion
1) any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal
a) the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds
b) the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe
c) the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside d) the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline
The heavens and the earth will pass away with a great noise, and the elements being on fire will melt with fervent heat -and the LORD will make a new heavens and new earth in which there is righteousness, only.
Futurist seem to believe all preterist are nuts. Sometimes we have to show them we are not.
Edwards was highly influential in the Baptist life of America. He was the first historian of Baptists in America. Albert Henry Newmans in his book (A History of the Baptist Church in the United States 1894). said Morgan Edwards certainly did bring strange things to the Baptist people in America in 1788.
Edwards believed that the lake of fire brimstone was on the moon! Edwards was a literalist so far as the New Testament was concerned, but not as much as with the Old Testament. Edwards believed that Abraham looked for a real literal city. He acknowledged the Bible was the word of God, while not denying the textual difficulties.
Falwell told about 1,500 people at a conference in Kingsport, Tenn., on a Thursday that he believes the second coming of Christ would be within a years. That was 8 years ago.
And dont forget the Y2K thing.
Jerry Falwell also distributed a packet on The Y2K Time Bomb, including a video, A Christians Guide to the Millennium Bug, advising people to be prepared for disaster. Y2K is Gods instrument to shake this nation, to humble this nation, Falwell said. He may be preparing to confound our language, to jam our communications, scatter our efforts, and judge us for our sin and rebellion for going against his Lordship.
Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins, who have sold more than 10 million copies of their Left Behind series of books about the Apocalypse, prophesied global upheaval on Jan. 1, 2000. The Y2K bug could trigger financial meltdown, warned LaHaye, making it possible for the Antichrist to dominate the world.
From 1998-99, we had plenty of our Dispensational friends searching their Bibles for evidence of the rapture and the end of all things as the Year 2000 dawned. Many books, tapes, and videos were written, produced, recorded, and bought by millions of people, many of whom were convinced the end was at hand. The prophecy know-it-alls were wrong again.
Since September 11th, 2001, even more people are wondering about the end of all things, and Tim LaHayes popular Left Behind book series (the first volume of which was originally published in 1995) has profited immensely from both the Y2K hysteria and now from the awful terrorist attack of 9-11-01.
Indeed LaHaye and Jenkins book series have now sold over 35 million copies. That doesnt include the motion picture adaptation of the Left Behind novel or the many other spin-offs, such as Left Behind for kids, the Left Behind board game, CDs, DVDs, etc.
Fear mongering about the end of the world and the return of Christ have made millions of dollars for men like LaHaye, Lindsey, Van Impe, Hagee, and Hunt, to name only a few.
But now that the evidence of the meltdown and world domination by an Antichrist did not happen what do Christian still do? Make these men richer by spending millions of dollars on their now carton books Left Behind series.
Back in the early 1970s, prophecy author Hal Lindsey predicted the Return of Christ would occur in 1988, Hal Lindsey was wrong, but that has not stopped him from writing many more prophecy books and it has not stopped Christians and non-Christians from buying his books.
Who is the antichrist? is a question that rings through out the religious communities of today. There are all kinds of theories being taught concerning the personality, actions, and identity of this antichrist. We have heard it being proclaimed that the antichrist was Hitler, Stalin, Nikita Khrushchev, Moammar Kadhafi, Saddam Hussein, and the list goes on and on. Of course, these have proven to be wrong. Is it finally time for us to go back and find out what the Bible teaches? The answer is so simple and so easy but, because of our religious training, it is oh so hard to accept.
Those Christians who believe that we are drawing close to the last days are continually trying to identify both the beast and the antichrist. This game of find the beast and identify the antichrist has become the adult Christians version of the childs game of pin the tail on the donkey. Every few years, the participants place blindfolds over their eyes, turn around six times, and march toward the wall.
Sometimes they march out the door and over a cliff, as was the case with Edgar C. Whisenant, whose best-selling two-part book announced in the summer of 1988 that Jesus would surely appear to rapture His church during Rosh Hashanah week in mid-September. Half the book was called On Borrowed Time. The other was more aptly titled, 88 Reasons why the Rapture is in 1988. I can think of one key argument why his books thesis was incorrect: no rapture so far, and it is now February, 1989. So much for all 88 arguments. The anti-Christian world got another great laugh at the expense of millions of fundamentalists who had bought and read his two-part book. The story of Mr. Whisenants book was front-page news briefly around the U.S. But Mr. Whisenant is now ancient history, one more forgotten laughingstock who brought reproach to the church of Jesus Christ while he piled up his press clippings.
This is the whole problem. The victims self-consciously forget the last self-proclaimed expert in Bible prophecy whose predictions did not come to pass. They never learn to recognize the next false prophet because they refuse to admit to themselves that they had been deceived. The game has been going on throughout the twentieth century, generation after generation,
God is not the author of confusion. (1 Corinthians 14:33) This is a foundational premise upon which all doctrine is established. It is not the character or the nature of God to have included in His Word any content that would create confusion, divisiveness, and/or ambivalence among the Church.
Nothing discredits the presentation and defense of the Christian faith and makes it more of a laughing stock in the eyes of the non-Christian world than the barrage of failed predictions, imminence speculations, and scare tactics of sincere Christians bound by our current irresponsible doctrine of the end-times.
yeshuasavedme said:yeshuasavedme said:With a wave of the preterist wand, the Word of God is dismissed as not literal, not true; but the Word of God is not of any private interpretation -and preterism is the privatist of the privates of twistings and contortions to deny the plain Word.
Many books are written to dismiss, twist and deny the Words of God, and are pasted in volumes on these boards -plagarized by the volumes- to try to prove that God really does not mean what He says at all:
but 'midnight' is coming, and the preterist coach will turn into the pumpkin that it is! while we who watch and pray, living godly sober lives, will escape the turning upside down of the globe on which we dwell, the reversing of the poles, the staggering and wobbling of it as it is moved out of its place, the sun shining seven times brighter than it does, the moon shining as the sun in its strength, and men being burned with the heat, so that if the LORD did not shorten the 24 hour day by a third of it no flesh would be saved! the waves and sea will be roaring; plagues, pestilences, wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines as never before on this planet will all come to the inhabitants of this earth, while those who escaped are with the LORD, in the heavenly temple, in their regenerated bodies enjoying their week of consecration as priests in their regenerated bodies, which are the holy garments of our priesthood.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
pass away; parerchomai
1) to go past, pass by
a) of persons moving forward
1) to pass by
b) of time
1) an act continuing for a time
c) metaph.
1) to pass away, perish
But [1161] de
the day [2250] hemera
of the Lord [2962] kurios
will come [2240] heko
as [5613] hos
a thief [2812] kleptes
in [1722] en
the night; [3571] nux
in [1722] en
the which [3739] hos
the heavens [3772] ouranos
shall pass away [3928] parerchomai 1) to pass away, perish
with a great noise, [4500] rhoizedon 1) with a loud noise
and [1161] de
the elements [4747] stoicheion
shall melt [3089] luo ...3) to loosen, undo, dissolve, anything bound, tied, or compacted together a) an assembly, i.e. to dismiss, break up...
with fervent heat, [2741] kausoo 1) to burn up, set fire to ...
the earth [1093] ge 2) the ground, the earth as a standing place 3) the main land as opposed to the sea or water 4) the earth as a whole a) the earth as opposed to the heavens b) the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals
also [2532] kai
and [2532] kai
the works [2041] ergon
that are therein [1722] en
(with Strongs #) [846] autos
shall be burned up. [2618] katakaio 1) to burn up, consume by fire
Elements: stoicheion
1) any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal
a) the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds
b) the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe
c) the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside d) the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline
The heavens and the earth will pass away with a great noise, and the elements being on fire will melt with fervent heat -and the LORD will make a new heavens and new earth in which there is righteousness, only.
The psalmist knew the prophecies of old, and knew that the heavens and the earth that now are shall pass away, and a new heavens and a new earth will be made from the same elements, 'melted'; absolutely dissolved in an atomic meltdown- by fire- and regenerated.
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree.
Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens [are] the work of thy hands.
Psa 102:26They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
Psa 102:27 But thou [art] the same, and thy years shall have no end.
Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Hbr 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Hbr 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
yeshuasavedme said:yeshuasavedme said:The psalmist knew the prophecies of old, and knew that the heavens and the earth that now are shall pass away, and a new heavens and a new earth will be made from the same elements, 'melted'; absolutely dissolved in an atomic meltdown- by fire- and regenerated.
Sometimes we discover statements, which disturb our preconceived ideas and challenge us to rethink long held views. Such is the case with II Thessalonians 2:1-2. If the day of the Lord is, as you and I have always been taught, a time ending, universe destroying event, how in the world could the Thessalonians ever have been convinced, as they obviously were, that the day of the Lord had ALREADY COME?
The same could be said of the passage in II Timothy. If the resurrection is when all the physical graves are opened, when Jesus bodily, visibly descends on a cloud with the audible sound of a trumpet: how could any one convince those at Ephesus that it had already happened? The point is, Paul did not challenge the teaching concerning the nature of the day. He only challenged the chronology so these first century saints held another concept or understand of the (day of Lord) then what we have been traditionally taught. Buy what was there understand the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven?
First we must keep in mind that Jesus was a Jew who was familiar with Jewish prophetic thought in the Old Testament (Matt. 5:17, 13:17; Luke 2:41-47, 24:27).
In order to understand how the manifestation of the Son of man in the judgment upon Jerusalem was on the clouds of heaven, one must understand the language of Israels Old Testament prophets. In biblical language clouds are symbolic of Gods wrath and judgment against the enemies of Gods people. David said that the Lord delivered him from his enemies while descending on clouds (Psa. 18:3-15). Of course, clouds also speak of Gods divine presence and power.
The Lord said that He would ride into Egypt on a cloud to punish them: Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud, and is about to come to Egypt. The idol of Egypt will tremble at His presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them. (Isa. 19: 1). In the above verse. the Lord did NOT literally ride on a cloud. However. Egypt did receive this judgment at the hands of the Assyrians (Isa. 20:1-6) . When God used the means of a nation or people to carry out a judgment. He was said to come on the clouds.
This apocalyptic language was well known to all in the Jewish and early Christian communities. This language was studied by all the congregation of Israel on the Sabbath in the synagogues, it was spoken in homes and by the rulers of Israel. This is the reason Jesus chose to use apocalyptic language as He described His SOON return to the people of His day. Jesus promised the High Priest. Caiaphas. that he would see the Son of man... coming on the clouds of heaven (Matt. 26:63-65). By this statement Jesus was claiming to be divine, Israels Messiah, and the Son of God.
This is how Israels prophets had said the Son of Man would come in the clouds of heaven (Dan. 7:13-14). Caiaphas knew that the language that Jesus used meant that he, as a ruler of Israel and as the fleshly seed of Abraham who rejected his Messiah, would SEE His return in judgment . A fleshly concept of Jesus coming on the clouds was contrary to the nature of Caiaphas understanding of the OT prophets.
The Old Testament idea of the day of the Lord was that God acted by means of armies or a nation to judge His enemies (Luke 11:29-32, 19:43-44). The day of the Lord was tumultuous, frightening, and awesomebut God did NOT appear visibly. Only the God of Israel could ride the clouds of heaven in judgment (Psa. 104:1-3. Isa. 19:1-3. Joel 2:1-2, Nah. 1-3. Zeph. 1:14-15). This fact was well known to every Jew.
The inspired apostle John stated that the Jews sought the more to kill Jesus because He was making himself equal to God (Jn 5:18, 8:58). These events of God coming in the clouds of heaven for judgment were contained in the ancient scrolls which comforted the early followers of Christ while then, waited for His return in judgment against their enemies (2Thes. 1:3-8). The Bible says that Jesus is the same yesterday. today and forever (Heb. 13:8).
Paul stated that he only said what the prophets and Moses said would take place (Acts 26:21-22). Although futurists today claim that verses such as Acts 1:9-11 predict events in our future. the angels said Jesus would return in the same manner (nature) as He appeared in the Old Testament, that is. in the clouds. David described his deliverance from his enemies in terms which sounded as if the physical universe was destroyed when Jehovah came down from heaven ( 2 Sam. 22)
The day of the Lord in the Old Covenant did not destroy planet earth, nor did it end time forever, nor would it do so under the New Covenant (compare Isa. 45:17 and Eph. 3:21). In the Old Covenant governments and nations were destroyed during the day of the Lord because they were enemies of God or because the, came up against His chosen people. In the first century in 70 A.D.. the Jewish world was destroyed during the day of the Lord because of their inability to accept the prophets of God and the Son of God (Matt.23:34-36).
The destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. put an end to the Old Covenant. In its place, the New Covenant, which began at the Last Supper came into its fullness. The second and final coming of Christ occurred in 70 A.D as Jesus invisibly and spiritually came on the clouds of heaven to judge His enemies and establish His everlasting kingdom.
This is how the church at Thessalonica had mistakenly begun to believe that the coming of Jesus was IMMINENT. They never had the concept of a literal physical coming of Jesus on literal physical cloud. They held the Old Testament understand that Paul taught them. Remember there is not (one words) from Paul were he writes to correct any problems of their understanding (about the nature) of that day. Paul did not challenge the teaching concerning the nature of the day. He only challenged the chronology.
Now here are some questions we should ask.
(1) Were in the New Testament scriptures does the Son of man say his New Testament Parousia was not to be like his Old Testament Parousia?
(2) Were in the Old Testament scriptures does it say anyone literal saw God coming down riding a literal cloud? David said that the Lord delivered him from his enemies while descending on clouds (Psa. 18:3-15). Of course. clouds also speak of Gods divine presence and power but no one literally saw him.
(3) Were in the New Testament scripture does Paul say he is (not teaching) these Old Testament concepts of the day of Lord? Remember Paul was also a Jew who familiar with Jewish prophetic thought in the Old Testament.
(4) Were is the scripture does Jesus who is the very same God in the Old Testament say his Parousia in the New Testament is new to be understood as a literal Parousia.
The only thing that comes close is Revelation 1:7 Behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him, and they also who pierced Him; and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so. Amen. But notice Zechariah 12:10-14.
The main purpose of Revelations was the revealing of Jesus to the tribes of the earth (or land). Now, we must identify, from Scripture, who those tribes were. To do that, we must keep in mind this simple rule of interpreting the Bible: let Scripture interpret Scripture. We can do that quite easily by looking at Zechariah 12:10-14.
And I will pour out on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and prayers. And they (i.e., the inhabitants of Jerusalem) shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and shall mourn for Him. As one mourns, for an only son, and will be bitter over Him like the bitterness over the firstborn. In that day (i.e., when they look on Him whom they had pierced) the mourning in Jerusalem will be great, like the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, families by families alone; the family of the house of David alone, and their wives alone; the family of Nathan alone, and their wives alone; the family of the house of Levi alone, and their wives alone; the family of Shimei alone, and their wives alone; all the families who are left, family by family alone, and their wives alone.
What (that day). The day of the Lord. Obviously, this is the foundation for John every eye will see Him and those who pierced Him, and all the tribes of the earth (or land) will wail due to Him. The Hebrew word for family is mishpachah and it means family; by extension a tribe or people. So, in essence, Zechariah was saying that the tribes of the land would mourn for Him whom they had pierced. Who were those tribes? The inhabitants of Jerusalem. This also helps us identify the earth in Revelation 1:7. According to Zechariah, the earth is the land of Palestine, specifically, Jerusalem. Also, it is those tribes, i.e., the nation of Israel, who would look on Me whom they had pierced. And because of that, the mourning in Jerusalem would be great. With all of this information, we can see that the tribes of the earth in Revelation 1:7 are the nation of Israel. The earth is Palestine. The land that would mourn is Jerusalem.
So, the main purpose of Revelation would be to reveal Jesus the nation of Israel. The place of this revealing would be Jerusalem. Lastly, this revealing would be to those who pierced Him, i.e., the Jews. This is not a general reference to the Jewish nation as some commentators state, but to Christs contemporary generation, that generation was destroyed in AD 70 by the Roman Legions. Therefore, the book of Revelation must have been written before that event.
I will be more then happy to see any answers to these questions with scripture.
(1) Were in the New Testament scriptures does the Son of man say his New Testament Parousia was not to be like his Old Testament Parousia?
(2) Were in the Old Testament scriptures does it say anyone literal saw God coming down riding a literal cloud? David said that the Lord delivered him from his enemies while descending on clouds (Psa. 18:3-15). Of course. clouds also speak of Gods divine presence and power but no one literally say him.
(3) Were in the New Testament scripture does Paul say he is (not teaching) these Old Testament concepts of the day of Lord? Remember Paul was also a Jew who familiar with Jewish prophetic thought in the Old Testament.
(4) Were in the scripture does Jesus who is the very same God in the Old Testament say his Parousia in the New Testament is new to be understood as a literal Parousia.
Hidden Manna said:yeshuasavedme said:Sometimes we discover statements, which disturb our preconceived ideas and challenge us to rethink long held views. Such is the case with II Thessalonians 2:1-2. If the day of the Lord is, as you and I have always been taught, a time ending, universe destroying event, how in the world could the Thessalonians ever have been convinced, as they obviously were, that the day of the Lord had ALREADY COME?
I personally don't know who the 'you' is, that you are addressing, as your replies are canned replies, brought in from elsewhere, and do not address the Scriptures that I have previously provided abundantly, that show the folly of the preterist make believe, fairy tale, non-existent coming of the LORD, to 'fullfill all Scripture', -they sa- in 70AD.
The Day of the LORD is a thousand years long, beginning with the darkness of night of that seven year period of time called one week -and a short hour' -which begins after the Church is removed from this earth -as the Scriptures teach, which is that time of great tribulation that the thessalonians were being lied to, about, that it was 'at hand'; and they therefore 'had missed the gathering to the LORD' that they had been taught was to come, by Paul, before that Day could come.
And I have abundantly posted the Scriptures, previously that completely destroy the fables of preterism to anyone who takes God at His Word.
-I'd suggest you go read them, so that I don't have to paste them again, for they were completely ignored by you and this is tiring to post the same Scriptural proofs over and over again.
I consider preterism a gross heresy, which destroys the promises of hope for the Church and the watching and praying that all Believers are admonished to do by Jesus so that they will escape all these things that are coming on the inhabitants of the world and to stand before the Son of Man.
yeshuasavedme said:Hidden Manna said:I consider preterism a gross heresy, which destroys the promises of hope for the Church and the watching and praying that all Believers are admonished to do by Jesus so that they will escape all these things that are coming on the inhabitants of the world and to stand before the Son of Man.
What we believe about eschatology effects our whole outlook on life and in many cases our behavior as well. For example Premillennialism is the most negative eschatology ever devised. Things have to get worse for the premillennialist to be correct. You can imagine how that effects their mindset. What is the use in trying to make a difference is God has ordained your efforts to fail?
US history attests to this fact. Eschatology has shaped America from the very beginning. We know that many today think of the United States as the great Babylon of the book of Revelation. However, that was not always the case. In fact, around the time of the Revolutionary War America was thought to play another character in the book of Revelation. Thats right, the New Jerusalem! Oh, how times have changed.
If you study the history of prophetic beliefs you will see that the times help shape peoples understanding of the signs of the times. Many of the early colonists in America had strong postmillennial beliefs. They felt that the new world was ordained by God to help usher in Christs millennial kingdom. This belief reached a fever pitch around the time of the American Revolution. The first Great Awaking began about 25 or 30 years before the Revolutionary war. This amazing revival caused many preachers to proclaim that America was Gods instrument to usher in His kingdom.
Although many Americans in that day had a very positive eschatology, most were not preterist in their understanding of the events in the book of Revelation. It was widely believed that Israel in prophesy was a type of America, and that the throne of Christs coming kingdom would be somewhere in the 13 colonies. I suppose the re-gathering of Israel was the migration to the new world etc.
King George took the role of the Antichrist. The stamp act was the mark of the beast. Someone calculated that the words Royal Supremacy in Great Britain equaled 666 in the Greek and Hebrew. Without a doubt eschatological belief played a role in leading the colonies into war with Great Britain. What was coming from the pulpits had a great influence on the American mindset. This understanding could even been seen in one of the Revolutionary War battle cries, No king but Jesus!
This belief reached an all time high with the victory over England. It was widely believed that the United States would go on to usher in the kingdom. The year most believed to be the beginning of the millennial reign of Christ was the year 2000!
Although pre-millennialism, the more negative brand of millennialism, was somewhat muted in this time, it had its proponents. Preterists say that the idea of the rapture did not appear until the nineteenth century. However a fellow named Cotton Mather may have been the first to speak of it. Around the time of the Revolutionary War he wrote that the earth would be consumed by fire, but the saints would be caught up in the air before this happened.
Christopher Columbus, who was an avid prophecy student, wrote this near the end of his life:
God made me the messenger of the new heaven and the new earth of which he spoke in the Apocalypse of St. John after having spoken of it through the mouth of Isaiah; and he showed me the spot where to find it.
In the 18th century Jonathan Edwards said that America would be the land where God would begin a new world in a spiritual respect, when he creates the new heavens and the new earth.
John Adams in 1765 wrote the settling of America was the opening of a grand scheme and design in Providence for the illumination of the ignorant and the emancipation of the slavish part of mankind all over the earth.
Even the motto on the great seal of the United States currency may have had eschatological influence. It reads NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM with the years 1776 it in Roman numerals. Translated this means A new order of the ages. Contrary to paranoid futurist beliefs, Charles Thompson who chose this motto did not have secret new age thought in mind, but he may have been influenced by the popular belief of that day that the United States would be used to usher in Christs millennial kingdom.
Later in the 1830s the Frenchman Alexis de Tocqueville observed that American religious and political values were so intertwined as to be inseparable.
A early 19th century hymn expressed the common thought of the day.
The great reform is drawing near
Long looked for soon will come
The time will move both earth and sea
Just like glorious Jubilee.
Just like the dispensationalists that would follow, these Americans looked at current events to shape their eschatology. For example, America experienced a great awaking just before the Revolutionary War and another great awakening about 100 years later. This, combined with the exuberance of the new nation, allowed postmillennial thought to flourish. We must also add that this viewpoint was being preached from a good many pulpits in the land.
A good question to ask is what caused the change in the eschatological paradigm in the United States to change from predominately postmillennial to predominately pre-millennial? Postmillennialism is optimistic and activist. Postmillennialists had a great deal to do with founding the United States. They were very optimistic about the future and believed it would get better and better. They were also activists and were heavily involved in issues like the abolition of slavery. The pre-millennialists were and are very negative. They believe things will get worse and worse. They are not totally passive however, their thought is that the world is a sinking ship, and they work to save as many people off of it as possible.
A friend of mine wrote an interesting article awhile back saying that the fall of a paradigm begins with an anomaly. That is something the system cant explain. Pre-millennialism began its rise to dominance in the late 1850s or so. That date should give us a clue what the first great anomaly against the postmillennial mindset was. The Civil War. Brother turned against brother in the bloodiest war ever fought on American soil. The country was literally ripped in two.
The second great anomaly was the industrialization of America. This caused great social upheaval and in many cases fear. Then came World War I, the great depression, and then World War II. Social upheaval invites negative end of the world speculation in every instance.
However, anomalies alone may not be enough to change a paradigm. There has to be one available to replace the old one and someone to present it. Enter John Darby. He started preaching in the United States in 1859. What timing! Things were just about to get bad in a hurry. Darby was a charismatic, tireless fellow with great power of persuasion. He and folks who would come later such as Moody and Schofield started a grassroots movement that grew with incredible speed. Then came the Schofield Bible, and the rest is history.
This makes me believe that the anomaly alone does not change eschatological paradigms. The second great factor is the pulpit. What is being said from the pulpit shapes peoples perception of events. For example, was the Civil War a step forward or back? The abolition of slavery made this country a better place, yet for a pre-millennialist to admit that anything could be getting better destroys his paradigm.
The same goes for today. For Pre-millennialism to be correct, the world has to be a worse place than it has ever been. And in fact, most pre-millennialists probably believe this. Yet, we could argue that the world is a better place than it has ever been and using history beat them soundly in a debate. So, the perception of events that comes from the pulpit might be as important as the events themselves in this battle between pre and postmillennialism.
Now, this begs the question what is it going to take to get folks to throw out millennialism altogether, and instead of looking at current events to shape their eschatology, look at the clear fulfillment of prophesy in the first century? Dispensationalism will eventually encounter anomalies and collapse, but if we cannot change the focus, another form of millennialism will replace it, and the cycle will continue.
BTW, I'm addressing the other readers for the most part because there is more hope for them then you. I know when someone is mindset and only God can break it if they are willing. Are you a Messianic Jew ?
No: But My Savior, Jesus, is.Hidden Manna said:Are you a Messianic Jew ?
yeshuasavedme said:He's promised to return and reign over His purchased kingdom, this planet, and to cleanse out of His kingdom all things that offend, when He returns on His throne of glory, which is at the time He fights for Jerusalem and destroys the armies of the antichrist, when He plants His feet on the Mount of Olives..I pray for the peace of Jerusaelm and shall, until the LORD establishes and makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth -as He told me to do- which He will do when He returns to this earth as the 'Son of Man' on His throne of glory, to reign before His elders gloriously; when the glory shall be over every dwelling in Jerusalem at that time when He plants His feet in the Holy of Holies of the temple that He gave the plans of, to Ezekiel, that shall be built when He returns to this earth to rule it as the Prince of Peace, when He brings the Sabbath Rest, at His return =the Times of Refreshing promised to this planet, before the elements are melted with fervent heat, after the thousand year Rest, as the heavens and earth 'pass away' with a 'loud noise', and He regenerates the elements and cuts off every seed of Adam in that eighth day of creation, as circumcision is the sign of.
Really? then they didn't believe God was a liar, did they? -but the rulers of Israel did miss the time of their visitation and caused the nation to be last to receive the promise of the regenerated body which the Ark of the Testiment is an oracle of, and caused the Gospel promise to be given to the Gentiles first, who will be harvested as sons of God in the first harvest, and Israel last of earth; which Pentecost and Tabernacles speak of, as oracles.armothe said:Sounds a lot like what the Pharasiees in the 1st century were expecting. Too bad Jesus told them to their face they were mistaken.
-A
yeshuasavedme said:And your superior attitude is insulting.
yeshuasavedme said:Really? The Messianic Jews were expecting the Messiah to come reign on earth -as promised!
yeshuasavedme said:He told His disciples that He would not celebrate the Passover again until He celebrated it New, with them, in the kingdom -to come, on this earth!
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